SOOPAVILLIN Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 Oh, it's a tired argument we don't need to have again. But I'll say this, your logic is based on a priori reasoning: Martin sucks, therefore good results must be attributable to something else, while bad results must be attributable to him. In point of fact, you are describing a situation where the Habs have gotten the most out of the players they have. In any normal world the coach gets some credit when that happens. What are you saying, that with Muller as coach Cammy would score more goals in the playoffs? Gill would have been better on the PK? As for whether Trotts or Muller would get superior results, meh. Trotts is another coach on a team where the team seems to get maximum overall results given the talent at hand; if he gets credit for that, then so should Martin. As for Muller, this is just pie-in-the-sky. Maybe Muller will make a great head coach some day, maybe not. Claiming that he's better than Martin is based on absolutely nothing. People hate Martin for three reasons. One, they obssess over relatively minor questions like who should be on the third line at the start of a game in October. Two, they see his boring persona and hanker for a flashier personality. Three, they have a fantasy about some Coach Saviour (Muller, Boucher, etc.) who will come and work miracles - i.e., get better results than a semi-finals appearance and driving the Cup champs to Game 7 OT. All I care about is results and JM has delivered. I agree with you CC, when I started this thread, it was more of a opinion creative thing which morphed into JM diss. As far as coach's go.........maybe Tortorella, Bylsma, Babcock could probably do better, but they will have their own negatives, like with everything in life there is the yin-yang philosophy, equal good and bad. The other funny thing I here is that JM hates french players, because some haven't worked out in Montreal, but that is more in my circle of friends, dont think I ever heard it on here B4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 my problem with martin isnt the line combo's or tactics.... its the Jekyll and Hyde habs that is Jacques Martin! how can we sh*t the bed against the leafs play a strong game 2 in Winnipeg and then completely blow in front of our fans against Calgary who also bent us over at the Heritage Classic LY! like seriously? i think what we all fail to realize is that the biggest, most important job of a coach in professional sports is to have the gift to motivate his players to compete every night. sure martin gets the guys up for the playoffs.... hello? its the playoffs!! but, over an 82 game season how many times have we just not showed up? the habs are never as bad as they look, or as good... to me..... it's a motivation/ compete issue!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Here's a counter to that though: Why should the coach have to motivate his players for the home opener? A game that every player looks forward to, getting introduced to a loud and raucous crowd. No motivation should be necessary for that one. Every team has ups and downs just like this, we just notice Montreal's more because, well, we're Hab fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOOPAVILLIN Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 my problem with martin isnt the line combo's or tactics.... its the Jekyll and Hyde habs that is Jacques Martin! how can we sh*t the bed against the leafs play a strong game 2 in Winnipeg and then completely blow in front of our fans against Calgary who also bent us over at the Heritage Classic LY! like seriously? i think what we all fail to realize is that the biggest, most important job of a coach in professional sports is to have the gift to motivate his players to compete every night. sure martin gets the guys up for the playoffs.... hello? its the playoffs!! but, over an 82 game season how many times have we just not showed up? the habs are never as bad as they look, or as good... to me..... it's a motivation/ compete issue!! To me it's that his system is difficult to sustain. The big test is to see us with a fully healthy roster, cause the last time we had that we were in the conference finals. And have never been healthy since then. I think when Markov returns, we'll be able to play more offensively, cause the first pass is so important, which was and hopefully still is brilliant my him. Pk will have less pressure to be the best player most nights. Jm's first year here wasnt this bad because we were healthy. Last year he got the most he could have out of a team missing several good players. That is why I think Bylsma is a good coach, cause he did the same last year with a depleted group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 that is in fact my point.... what is JM's system? the trap? a defensive collapse? 2 man forcheck? please.... all this talk of his system being to hard to sustain is all excuses!! where only 3 games in..... the fact is not a single defender has been injured from a shot block and the "sit back and soak up the pressure counter attack game" actually takes less energy except for poor old price when he has to concentrate over long stretches in our end. the real question is... can Jacques Martin get these guys up to compete night in night out? and trust me... constant line juggling does not sit well with players... ask anyone who plays Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbp Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 About the opener, what was the stat I think Brian used... we are 1 and 7 in out last 8 openers and the win was in a shootout? That predates JM. I mean I wish we could have Guy Boucher... but I really do not have any major problems with JM. The coach can only do so much before it becomes the players respectability to well... play. I think we are being over critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Neither of the losses were result of a system. Martin demands that the forwards get back and play defense. Last night the breakdowns were the fault of the forwards for the most part. They start cheating because they are behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 dont get me wrong. im not attacking JM... i'm just saying his motivation tactics are what i dislike most about him but im not leading a lynch mob for his head by any means! i understand were 3 games into the season after an eastern final run prior to a game 7 ot loss in a series that we lost 3 OT games to a team i wish not to recognize. we haven't played our best player for like a million years and it just seems when one guy comes back another goes down... i sound like a broken record when i say well if we had markov or this guy or that guy or if we had koivu or this or that... it seems like something always happens to us that allows us to have an excuse for failing and it has me pulling out my hair.... maybe we should of just never left the Forum!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 The other key to the last two losses has been goaltending. When your defense is weak, you become tentative in the offensive zone. Shots become a one and done affair because you need to get back. Kipper played great last night and faced 36 shots. Personally I like the Habs transition offense game. I like the way the team supports the puck when they are sticking to the system. I love their speed and i like the way they defend usually. I wish they didn't let the other team into the zone as easily. That is one fault. I guess you could say I like the JM system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I guess since this is a line combo thread and not an I hate JM thread, i will put in my two cents. The team doesn't have a first line, but it does have the potential for a 2a 2b 2c. 2a Cole Gomez Gionta. I totally agree that Cole should be tried on this line. He has shown chemistry with the yanks. 2b Cammy/palushaj/Eller Plek Kostitsyn. When Cammy gets back, we know this line works. 2c DD/Palushaj. Eller/DD Pacioretty. Pac and DD have shown great chemistry in hamilton. Centre depends on if Eller fills in as winger. 4 Darche Enqvist Moen Gill Gorges. great shutdown pair. Emelin Subban. Subban does not deserve big minutes yet based on his play. Diaz Weber. Left overs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I guess since this is a line combo thread and not an I hate JM thread, i will put in my two cents. The team doesn't have a first line, but it does have the potential for a 2a 2b 2c. 2a Cole Gomez Gionta. I totally agree that Cole should be tried on this line. He has shown chemistry with the yanks. 2b Cammy/palushaj/Eller Plek Kostitsyn. When Cammy gets back, we know this line works. 2c DD/Palushaj. Eller/DD Pacioretty. Pac and DD have shown great chemistry in hamilton. Centre depends on if Eller fills in as winger. 4 Darche Enqvist Moen Gill Gorges. great shutdown pair. Emelin Subban. Subban does not deserve big minutes yet based on his play. Diaz Weber. Left overs exactly what i was saying earlier player for player even on D... let pulashaj have a full two week stint with plex and andrei.. let the kids grow into a force together on the third line.. and let's try and get cole to succeed in MTL! he isnt going to if we keep running him up and down our lineup.... put him on the line with the americans and leave these lines for a nice stretch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I guess since this is a line combo thread and not an I hate JM thread, i will put in my two cents. The team doesn't have a first line, but it does have the potential for a 2a 2b 2c. 2a Cole Gomez Gionta. I totally agree that Cole should be tried on this line. He has shown chemistry with the yanks. 2b Cammy/palushaj/Eller Plek Kostitsyn. When Cammy gets back, we know this line works. 2c DD/Palushaj. Eller/DD Pacioretty. Pac and DD have shown great chemistry in hamilton. Centre depends on if Eller fills in as winger. 4 Darche Enqvist Moen Gill Gorges. great shutdown pair. Emelin Subban. Subban does not deserve big minutes yet based on his play. Diaz Weber. Left overs One thing to remember about the D, is its very hard to put a RH shot like Diaz, Weber, Subban on the left side. A guy like Emelin or Gorges can easily move over, but not the righties. Why? Quite simply there are many more lefties than righties at all levels of hockey, so coming up, chances are a good defenceman will end up on a team with 4 or 5 left handed dmen, and will be forced try to play on the opposite side. But righties never face that problem. So you are asking one of Diaz and Weber to play a position they most likely have never played in their lives. Being on the wrong side changes everything about playing D..... it changes your containment (think about when the other team has the puck in the corner or on the boards and you are containing him there, if you are a righty on the left side, you stick doesn't cover the pass to the slot, rather it covers the pass behind the net).... it changes how you play dump ins, as you have to turn your back to the play to retrieve the puck in your corner. It creates a number of defensive problems. Thats why Gill, Gorges, and Yemelin all have to play on the left... .and Subban, Weber, Diaz on the right.... at least until we start getting Markov or Spacek back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I'd play Gorges - Subban Gill - Diaz Emelin - Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I'd play Gorges - Subban Gill - Diaz Emelin - Weber Good point. i forgot Diaz was a righty. This is also why I belive Spacek will look better this year. Playing the left side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 People hate Martin for three reasons. One, they obssess over relatively minor questions like who should be on the third line at the start of a game in October. Two, they see his boring persona and hanker for a flashier personality. Three, they have a fantasy about some Coach Saviour (Muller, Boucher, etc.) who will come and work miracles - i.e., get better results than a semi-finals appearance and driving the Cup champs to Game 7 OT. All I care about is results and JM has delivered. I wish I could favourite this post. Wow just perfect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 One more thing to remember everyone. Bylsma Boucher and I believe Babcock do not speak French, so they are not good enough to coach here. And thats so important to this origination (which is so backwards) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 One more thing to remember everyone. Bylsma Boucher and I believe Babcock do not speak French, so they are not good enough to coach here. And thats so important to this origination (which is so backwards) I agree, I hate the rule... but it is what it is... and as long as its in place, there isn't a replacement for JM available.... unless you want Marc "I benched Gretzky and Yzerman in a shootout at the Olympics in favour of Ray Bourque" Crawford or yet another rookie from the QMJHL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazy26 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 One more thing to remember everyone. Bylsma Boucher and I believe Babcock do not speak French, so they are not good enough to coach here. And thats so important to this origination (which is so backwards) Guy Boucher doesn't speak French? I don't know how fluent he is, but I figured Babcock would be somewhat bilingual having attended Magill. Besides the point though, I know. At the time, Martin was indeed the best candidate for the job (with its extra criteria), and I think it's a shame that we have to work with extra limitations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbp Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I don't know how fluent he is, but I figured Babcock would be somewhat bilingual having attended Magill. You do not really need to know french to live in Montreal anymore... kinda sad, but true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 You do not really need to know french to live in Montreal anymore... kinda sad, but true. You never did, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbp Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 You never did, though. I spent a little over 2 months there working this summer and my dad lived there for 9 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Guy Boucher doesn't speak French? I don't know how fluent he is, but I figured Babcock would be somewhat bilingual having attended Magill. Besides the point though, I know. At the time, Martin was indeed the best candidate for the job (with its extra criteria), and I think it's a shame that we have to work with extra limitations. Guy Boucher is 100% francophone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 well, if the early indications of markov's return are correct and he's back by November then our defense suddenly becomes significantly better and the line combo's more manageable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I spent a little over 2 months there working this summer and my dad lived there for 9 years Ha ha, no, I didn't mean you personally - I meant that people in general have never really needed to speak French in order to make a life for themselves in Montreal. With an English-speaking community numbering between 600 000 to 1 million depending on how it's defined, there was always the option of living in a mostly English bubble. I was making a historical point about my former hometown. Sorry, didn't mean to offend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbp Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Ha ha, no, I didn't mean you personally - I meant that people in general have never really needed to speak French in order to make a life for themselves in Montreal. With an English-speaking community numbering between 600 000 to 1 million depending on how it's defined, there was always the option of living in a mostly English bubble. I was making a historical point about my former hometown. Sorry, didn't mean to offend. Wasn't offended no worries Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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