You're Marc Bergevin - What deal do you offer Subban?

[tebo64]

I believe Bergevin needs to stick to his team structure. Two to three years max and then go for a long term contract, after all he is still a young player and has more to prove. I am not for any long term contract for more than 5 years.

[dlbalr]

Based on Kypreos, Subban is looking for $5m on a long term contract. If that is true, I'd sign him for the max 8 year term. He will be able to get a lot more than $5m 3 years from now.

To be honest, I'm not sure if the 8 year deal will be allowable here. First, we don't know if there are any standards (ie: minimum x number of years with the same team, age, etc), plus there's something in the new CBA that says it can't be done after July 1. That means there's a limited period (from x to July 1) where it's doable. I'm not saying it's not here but it's not a given that an 8 year pact can be given to Subban.

[tebo64]

You will see a trade of Subban before Beregevin gives him a long term deal. I fully expect a 2 maybe 3 year transition contract for Subban. If Subban sits at home his value does not increase.

[habs rule]

You will see a trade of Subban before Beregevin gives him a long term deal. I fully expect a 2 maybe 3 year transition contract for Subban. If Subban sits at home his value does not increase.

I really like pk, as does everyone else, but is his ego the problem? He thinks that he has the Habs by the balls, and as a lot of players have come to find out, not so much. MB will trade him if a deal is not reasonable, PK and the habs will regret this for many years. For reference see some guy called Kovalev who screwed the pooch and now wishes he had stayed in Montreal. So for all those guys who say " "nobody wants to sign here", read the Kovalev interview. It is a privelage of the utmost to play for the greatest hockey team on earth. I hope Pk understands that.

[brobin]

As I said in another thread (feel bad about talking about PK in a gomez thread, it isn't fair to PK )....

Bergeron clearly wants the bridge contract and PK wants the big money deal. I agree with Bergeron, but this isn't a matter of negotiating a few bucks either way. This is a case of one side blinking.

This might take some time.

[dlbalr]

Per Francois Gagnon, no talks are planned for today between Bergevin and Meehan on Subban's deal. I get the sense this is going to take longer than I expected...

https://twitter.com/GagnonFrancois/status/291213633432723456

[brobin]

Don Meehan on hockey central, he is basically saying PK is a comparable to Seguin, Tyler hall, etc in that he should be locked up long term.

This is the heart of the issue and another example of other GMs decisions impacting everyone else. Imagine if the Cba didn't restrict term....

He also said that it doesn't look possible that PK will be in the lineup on Saturday.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The problem I have is that when you get down to brass tacks, I think PK has all the leverage in this negotiation.

Imagine our blueline without him. You're now relying on Markov and Kaberle - declining, older, expensive players - to carry the corps, spelled off only by sophomores like Diaz and defensive types like Gorges and Emelin. Given how important rushing defencemen and PP quartebacks are to a healthy team offence, that is bad news all around. And PK logs huge minutes in both ends. You have to somehow patch up the D to replace those minutes. Meanwhile, other young defenders are probably 2-3 years away, and there is no guarantee that they will be anywhere near PK's calibre.

It's a disastrous scenario. Suddenly the Habs go from a team with a good young nucleus to a desperate patchwork job with no hope of near-term improvement on the backend, short of a hugely expensive UFA signing. But if you're dropping big bucks anyway, why not just sign PK?

People say, trade him. OK. Unless you get a comparable defender in return, you're still looking at a radically problematic blueline. But what are the odds of getting a comparable defender, at substantially cheaper rates than you'd be paying PK? No one makes that trade. If you get a star-quality young forward (say, from Edmonton), that's great; but it still doesn't solve the problem that you can't hope to win without a quality blueline. Do you then trade a forward to fix the blueline? How are you further ahead, then?

Unless PK is unprepared to sit out the season and is willing to take a contract he doesn't like in order to play 48 games, it's a bit of a no-win scenario for Bergevin.

It's another case where being a mediocre team hurts you. A Vancouver could just let Ehrhoff walk and still be considered contenders; not so for us.

[dlbalr]

Imagine our blueline without him. You're now relying on Markov and Kaberle - declining, older, expensive players - to carry the corps, spelled off only by sophomores like Diaz and defensive types like Gorges and Emelin. Given how important rushing defencemen and PP quartebacks are to a healthy team offence, that is bad news all around. And PK logs huge minutes in both ends. You have to somehow patch up the D to replace those minutes. Meanwhile, other young defenders are probably 2-3 years away, and there is no guarantee that they will be anywhere near PK's calibre.

I don't think a ton of patchwork would need to be done. Yes, the Habs are lacking in the 20+ minutes per game depth chart but they're also not saddled with 12-14 minute guys either. Gorges is good for 23, Markov around 20 (I'm trying to be a bit conservative with him). Kaberle is apparently in better shape and should play more than the ~16 1/2 minutes he played with the Habs last year, he can probably go to 18. Emelin/Diaz can also take on minutes in that range and Bouillon was around 17 last year as well. You'd really only have to 'patch' five or so minutes per game if you break it down that way.

Is that ideal? Certainly not but (for now since they're all healthy), the depth is there and good enough to get the Habs through the early stages of the season at the very least without thrusting too many minutes on players that can't handle it. Both sides have some leverage here I'd say.

[Habsfan]

I have to say that i'm a little worried about the Subban negotiations. If Carey Price and Max Pacioretty accepted short term bridge deals before signing their long term contracts, Subban should understand that he will also have to do the same.

A great comparable signed yesterday with New-York. Del Zoto (represented by Meehan) signed for 2 years and 5.1 million$. I do believe that Subban is better and should get more...ie: 2 years and 6 million$, I'd even be willing to go as high as 2 years and 6.5 - 7 million$

The longer this drags out, the worse it,ll be for everyone!

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I don't think a ton of patchwork would need to be done. Yes, the Habs are lacking in the 20+ minutes per game depth chart but they're also not saddled with 12-14 minute guys either. Gorges is good for 23, Markov around 20 (I'm trying to be a bit conservative with him). Kaberle is apparently in better shape and should play more than the ~16 1/2 minutes he played with the Habs last year, he can probably go to 18. Emelin/Diaz can also take on minutes in that range and Bouillon was around 17 last year as well. You'd really only have to 'patch' five or so minutes per game if you break it down that way.

Is that ideal? Certainly not but (for now since they're all healthy), the depth is there and good enough to get the Habs through the early stages of the season at the very least without thrusting too many minutes on players that can't handle it. Both sides have some leverage here I'd say.

I dunno. 'Minutes' can be filled, but the question is quality. I don't see how losing Subban can possibly be other than a huge blow to our D. We might be able to paper it over - certainly if Markov remains Markov we will be no worse off than last year; but then again, Markov cannot be relied on to be durable, nor can we be sure he WILL be Markov. And besides, our D last year was a disaster, so lateral moves are not what we want. Fact is, this team needs PK Subban, both now and (more importantly) going forward.

[brobin]

I dunno. 'Minutes' can be filled, but the question is quality. I don't see how losing Subban can possibly be other than a huge blow to our D. We might be able to paper it over - certainly if Markov remains Markov we will be no worse off than last year; but then again, Markov cannot be relied on to be durable, nor can we be sure he WILL be Markov. And besides, our D last year was a disaster, so lateral moves are not what we want. Fact is, this team needs PK Subban, both now and (more importantly) going forward.

Part of this is how you think the team is going to do this year. If we were a contender, I would be far more worried about PK missing time. Personally, I don't see us as a contender this year, so decisions need to be made with a view to next year. If PK needs to cool his heels a bit, then so be it. I would rather not over pay just to be 11th instead of 13th this year.

[sbhatt]

Sounds like PK and his agent are ready to sit out a substantial amount of time to get the deal they want.

[lazy26]

Part of this is how you think the team is going to do this year. If we were a contender, I would be far more worried about PK missing time. Personally, I don't see us as a contender this year, so decisions need to be made with a view to next year. If PK needs to cool his heels a bit, then so be it. I would rather not over pay just to be 11th instead of 13th this year.

Umm... you're failing to take into account how this affects my fantasy team!

Meehan said they're not even close today.

[JoeLassister]

With today's agreement concerning buyouts, could we possibly offer PK a 8 years deal, 5M$ per season ?

[brobin]

Umm... you're failing to take into account how this affects my fantasy team!

Meehan said they're not even close today.

Lol...

[Trizzak]

Sounds like PK and his agent are ready to sit out a substantial amount of time to get the deal they want.

Worked for Drew Doughty last season.

[brobin]

With today's agreement concerning buyouts, could we possibly offer PK a 8 years deal, 5M$ per season ?

Not sure it has any bearing. Cap hit remains the same.

Meehan was pretty clear that the new CBA hasn't been a concern in the discussion. This is strictly a bridge contract vs a long term deal. If they were both in agreement on which kind of deal they wanted, the dollars would be a quick discussion.

They brought up a good point on hockey central... Montreal has a lot of young prospects coming along and they don't want them all asking for long term deals after the rookie contract. I think they want to set the Carey Price route as the expectation.

[JoeLassister]

Not sure it has any bearing. Cap hit remains the same. Meehan was pretty clear that the new CBA hasn't been a concern in the discussion. This is strictly a bridge contract vs a long term deal. If they were both in agreement on which kind of deal they wanted, the dollars would be a quick discussion. They brought up a good point on hockey central... Montreal has a lot of young prospects coming along and they don't want them all asking for long term deals after the rookie contract. I think they want to set the Carey Price route as the expectation.

Yes, but I thought that we were not allowed to bust next season's cap before actually buying Gomez out.

Now that it could be done as soon as right now, how much money can we give Subban for next season ?

[BlueKross]

I dunno. 'Minutes' can be filled, but the question is quality. I don't see how losing Subban can possibly be other than a huge blow to our D. We might be able to paper it over - certainly if Markov remains Markov we will be no worse off than last year; but then again, Markov cannot be relied on to be durable, nor can we be sure he WILL be Markov. And besides, our D last year was a disaster, so lateral moves are not what we want. Fact is, this team needs PK Subban, both now and (more importantly) going forward.

CC, just in retrospect, I believe you were one of several that claimed we would never be able to replace GOmez. I expect everyone here wants to see PK get a fair deal. If Meehan can get himself a signed offer sheet, then you will find out Subbans true value.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

When Cam Fowler makes $4M per year, Subban shouldn't make a dime less. When Doughty makes $7M per year, it doesn't matter what Carlson or Del Zotto make.

[dlbalr]

With today's agreement concerning buyouts, could we possibly offer PK a 8 years deal, 5M$ per season ?

Presuming the Habs go through with the buyout (there isn't a whole lot of incentive to but I think they will), yes, that option is available.

As for the interview with Meehan, here it is: http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/FanAudioOnDemand/~3/sZl-5-fi5eI/Don-Meehan-with-John-Shannon,-Scott-Morrison-and-Ric-Nattress-hc-20130115-Interview.mp3

[JoeLassister]

Hell. Then give him 40M$-42M$ for 8 years.

When he really reaches his potential (sooner than later), he will worth it.

And 5M$-5,25M$ should be enough to get over the "Québec taxes issue".

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

CC, just in retrospect, I believe you were one of several that claimed we would never be able to replace GOmez. I expect everyone here wants to see PK get a fair deal. If Meehan can get himself a signed offer sheet, then you will find out Subbans true value.

Ha ha, I forget if I said this about Gomez (more likely, I argued that we couldn't just dump him without an adequate replacement); but I won't deny that I fretted greatly about losing both Souray and Komisarek and wanted us to shell out substantial dough to try to keep those guys. So my judgement is hardly infallible.

That said, Subban is in another category from any of those guys. Those were all one-dimensional players and two of them were recently coming off career years that would prove to be their peak. Not so Subban.

Brobin's point about us being contenders (or not) is a good one, though. Assuming this season to be a write-off anyway, it might indeed be worth taking a principled stand on Subban. The only danger in doing so is in poisoning the well such that he is turned off of Montreal altogether. But presumably you can rebuild the relationship later.

Whatever happens, this just might prove to be a defining test of Bergevin. His knowledge of this will probably make him more determined not to cave.

[brobin]

Ha ha, I forget if I said this about Gomez (more likely, I argued that we couldn't just dump him without an adequate replacement); but I won't deny that I fretted greatly about losing both Souray and Komisarek and wanted us to shell out substantial dough to try to keep those guys. So my judgement is hardly infallible.

That said, Subban is in another category from any of those guys. Those were all one-dimensional players and two of them were recently coming off career years that would prove to be their peak. Not so Subban.

Brobin's point about us being contenders (or not) is a good one, though. Assuming this season to be a write-off anyway, it might indeed be worth taking a principled stand on Subban. The only danger in doing so is in poisoning the well such that he is turned off of Montreal altogether. But presumably you can rebuild the relationship later.

Whatever happens, this just might prove to be a defining test of Bergevin. His knowledge of this will probably make him more determined not to cave.

The good news is Meehan said the relationship is great and the negotiations are very professional.