Jump to content

Subban's 2nd embellishment fine


hab29RETIRED
 Share

Recommended Posts

Subban has now been fined twice for embellishment. This is ridiculous, considering there are far worse offenders out there (Marchand), that don't get called anywhere near as often.

I think there are two standards, one for Subban and one for everyone else. He gets chintzy calls against him, when he is hooked, tripped, he rarely gets a call as often as other players do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The more attention P.K gets for being known as a diver, the more likely it is going to affect him being able to draw a real penalty call against him. There will come a time when he gets tripped for real and it won't get called, and then the puck will end up in the back of our net. Personally I absolutely hate the mentality of players exaggerating an infraction, they should be 100% focused on trying to stay on their feet and finish plays. A horrifying example is back a few years ago in the playoffs when Kovalev got slashed and rather than play through it he stood there shaking his wrist while a Bruin busted in our zone and scored the game winner. This is a man's league, and it should be played like men.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a big problem with this fine. Diving isn't important. I watch 100+ games a year, and most of you do as well. Name one game that was decided because of a dive. Thank you.

Subban wasn't called for a dive on the play. If he were, the suspension would be just. I really hope the NHL isn't wasting their time scouring old game tapes for uncalled dives. That's just freaking stupid.

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=53&id=785451&lang=en

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there are two standards, one for Subban and one for everyone else. He gets chintzy calls against him, when he is hooked, tripped, he rarely gets a call as often as other players do.

That's why he doesn't hit like he used to "Hit? Well nope zebra will probably send me to penalty box. Can't do that to team". Fine your brain NHL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a big problem with this fine. Diving isn't important. I watch 100+ games a year, and most of you do as well. Name one game that was decided because of a dive. Thank you.

Subban wasn't called for a dive on the play. If he were, the suspension would be just. I really hope the NHL isn't wasting their time scouring old game tapes for uncalled dives. That's just freaking stupid.

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=53&id=785451&lang=en

I agree with this post 100% The only rationale for embellishment is it might embarrass the ref Whoopty Forking Dooo . Put your big boy pants on and get reffing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't mind penalizing diving and fining embellishment. Hockey isn't soccer and shouldn't allowed to degenerate to that point.

What drives me crazy is the exaggerated importance that old-school guys place upon this, as opposed to, say, head-shots or deliberate attempts to injure. The latter are 'just parta tha game' while diving is the greatest atrocity in human history. Listening to NHL discourse over the past few years, the 2011 Canucks were the Most Evil Team Ever because they had a rep for diving and yapping. Oooo, how heinous. Similarly, the Habs, routinely accused of diving to excess. Meanwhile, Marchard can deliberately break Raymond Mason's back and Chara can commit attempted murder on Pacioretty, and they basically get hand-written letters of congratulation and bouquets of flowers from the commentariat and league bigwigs. For that matter, Crosby can suffer repeated head-shots that nearly destroy his career. Or Weber can head-smash a star player against the glass. Kreider can regularly 'accidentally' slide into goalies feet-first. All of that is just hunky-dory with the dickheads that run the league. They're just 'hockey plays' by 'good guys.'

Then there's the double standard on Subban. Yes, Subban has an agitating aspect to his game. So sue him. I've said this before and I continue to believe it: if PK were white, he would been nowhere near as polarizing a figure. After a few seasons, he has mostly been accepted, but the attitude that he's a 'punk' still lingers, at least in the refs' minds.

Personally, I'd love to see a day when NHL refs and disciplinarians stop acting like it is their prerogative to issue calls based on their personal opinion of players' (and teams') characters and instead judge the actions, period. Unfortunately, this minimum level of basic professionalism is beyond the comprehension of both the refs and the league as a whole. Justice is blind, but not in the NHL; in the NHL, 'justice' is 99% personal preferences.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Subban has a track record of diving and trying to draw penalties since he started in NHL. So couple fines may curb it, but as the old saying "if you aint cheatin, you arnt doing all you can to win", or something like that.

So maybe good on him to try and draw a PP, but why bother with such a shitty PP for past 2 years, but is a tactic that has been around for a long time and I wouldn't miss from the league.

I remember they used to suggest to Bobby Hull to go down when hacked and wacked, but he simply wouldn't, which seems more admirable than showing up the refs soccer style.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't mind penalizing diving and fining embellishment. Hockey isn't soccer and shouldn't allowed to degenerate to that point.

What drives me crazy is the exaggerated importance that old-school guys place upon this, as opposed to, say, head-shots or deliberate attempts to injure. The latter are 'just parta tha game' while diving is the greatest atrocity in human history. Listening to NHL discourse over the past few years, the 2011 Canucks were the Most Evil Team Ever because they had a rep for diving and yapping. Oooo, how heinous. Similarly, the Habs, routinely accused of diving to excess. Meanwhile, Marchard can deliberately break Raymond Mason's back and Chara can commit attempted murder on Pacioretty, and they basically get hand-written letters of congratulation and bouquets of flowers from the commentariat and league bigwigs. For that matter, Crosby can suffer repeated head-shots that nearly destroy his career. Or Weber can head-smash a star player against the glass. Kreider can regularly 'accidentally' slide into goalies feet-first. All of that is just hunky-dory with the dickheads that run the league. They're just 'hockey plays' by 'good guys.'

Then there's the double standard on Subban. Yes, Subban has an agitating aspect to his game. So sue him. I've said this before and I continue to believe it: if PK were white, he would been nowhere near as polarizing a figure. After a few seasons, he has mostly been accepted, but the attitude that he's a 'punk' still lingers, at least in the refs' minds.

Personally, I'd love to see a day when NHL refs and disciplinarians stop acting like it is their prerogative to issue calls based on their personal opinion of players' (and teams') characters and instead judge the actions, period. Unfortunately, this minimum level of basic professionalism is beyond the comprehension of both the refs and the league as a whole. Justice is blind, but not in the NHL; in the NHL, 'justice' is 99% personal preferences.

Excellent post after the first sentence :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Subban has a track record of diving and trying to draw penalties since he started in NHL. So couple fines may curb it, but as the old saying "if you aint cheatin, you arnt doing all you can to win", or something like that.

So maybe good on him to try and draw a PP, but why bother with such a shitty PP for past 2 years, but is a tactic that has been around for a long time and I wouldn't miss from the league.

I remember they used to suggest to Bobby Hull to go down when hacked and wacked, but he simply wouldn't, which seems more admirable than showing up the refs soccer style.

The only problem with that is the refs are calling such chintzy penalties that often make no sense what so ever, that guys will try to get that extra penalty. I mean Gallagher has been told by refs they will ignore penalties on him cause he is a shit disturber. That is not their job. Do your job, call real penalties not the phantom hooking etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's why he doesn't hit like he used to "Hit? Well nope zebra will probably send me to penalty box. Can't do that to team". Fine your brain NHL.

I'd wager he doesn't 'hit' like he used to because more often than he would miss and take himself completely out of the play. Good riddance, I say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Watching the replay of the so-called "Embellishment" - he got hauled down hard. You can't suddenly halt your forward momentum the way he did ... at least not voluntarily. Something needs to give you a good hard yank backwards. It's simple physics. Someone in the league is an idiot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd call it a dive. But I do wonder why they're reviewing old games for these offenses. I could get on board if it was called in the game, but a week later?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only problem with that is the refs are calling such chintzy penalties that often make no sense what so ever, that guys will try to get that extra penalty. I mean Gallagher has been told by refs they will ignore penalties on him cause he is a shit disturber. That is not their job. Do your job, call real penalties not the phantom hooking etc.

Yep, it's absurd the way the games are called, Gallagher will never get a call, and it's blatantly all one way with the refs in terms of him.

I really don't think Subban is a diver at all, just more BS from the headless heads at NHL office...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this is fantastic. I want to see it regularly and equally across the league. Diving is garbage and I hate it. I would like to see game suspensions without pay too. Very happy about this recent development. I am not being sarcastic. Diving infuriates me and is hard on the game. Sucks to think PK is being treated unfairly, but he dives a lot. The tough thing here is being objective and fair about it.

Yep, it's absurd the way the games are called, Gallagher will never get a call, and it's blatantly all one way with the refs in terms of him.I really don't think Subban is a diver at all, just more BS from the headless heads at NHL office...

On Gally. .. the guy falls down every time he is in the offensive zone. I know he isn't diving, but how do you call a penalty every 5 me he falls.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On Gally. .. the guy falls down every time he is in the offensive zone. I know he isn't diving, but how do you call a penalty every 5 me he falls.

Gallagher is 5' 9", 180 lbs. The average NHL player is 3 inches taller than he is, and 20 lbs heavier. Without any effort on Gallagher's part to embellish, or any significant infraction on their part - they can knock him down by breathing on him. The Refs have to call that how they see it - look at what the players did, not the result. If they held him, hooked him, tripped him, touched him when he didn't have the puck... AT ALL... they need to call a penalty. If he fell because they bump him a bit when he has the puck, then they need to let it go.

Seriously, all this embellishment would stop being an issue if Refs would only call the infraction, and not the result. It doesn't matter if a guy falls down. It's totally irrelevant to the infraction. If you had your stick tangled in his skates, it's tripping, even if the guy stays up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this is fantastic. I want to see it regularly and equally across the league. Diving is garbage and I hate it. I would like to see game suspensions without pay too. Very happy about this recent development. I am not being sarcastic. Diving infuriates me and is hard on the game. Sucks to think PK is being treated unfairly, but he dives a lot. The tough thing here is being objective and fair about it.

On Gally. .. the guy falls down every time he is in the offensive zone. I know he isn't diving, but how do you call a penalty every 5 me he falls.

They could call the BS punches in the face after the whistle because he came close to their poor little goalie. It's more than I that notices how Gally is abused, hauled down even though his feet were moving, no call ever, could be decapitated, but never gets a call...

Like Jeff says, call the infractions, the rest will sort it's self out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that Gally does not get treated fairly by the refs. He takes way too much abuse. All I'm saying is that I sympathize with the refs, because his style of play often leads to him being on his ass. It would be hard to pick out the infractions with him. Only because he is the smallest power forward in the history of the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that Gally does not get treated fairly by the refs. He takes way too much abuse. All I'm saying is that I sympathize with the refs, because his style of play often leads to him being on his ass. It would be hard to pick out the infractions with him. Only because he is the smallest power forward in the history of the game.

At least he is getting knocked down. Do you want to tell me how Marchand draws so many penalties?? Or how he doesn't get called for embellishment??? The guy did a friggin cartwheel a couple of weeks ago, how was that not called a penalty or reviewed afterwards.

I'd be okay with SUbban getting called or getting fined if there was consistency and a lack of bias on the calls.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i just watched the video too, and I dotn think that is embellishment at all, He actually pulls the guys stick out of his hand because is is getting hooked so hard how do you fake that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is pretty easy.

You could see the Sen giving him the gears after the play also.

And he 'seems' to of done it about 100 times besides that in the past, not a one time thing.

But, I bet he will not do it much anymore.

(Plekanec got embarrassed last year also with obvious overacted fakery and he sems to of avoided doing it this year.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Stogey24

At least he is getting knocked down. Do you want to tell me how Marchand draws so many penalties?? Or how he doesn't get called for embellishment??? The guy did a friggin cartwheel a couple of weeks ago, how was that not called a penalty or reviewed afterwards.

I'd be okay with SUbban getting called or getting fined if there was consistency and a lack of bias on the calls.

Montreal is hard under the microscope. May have something to do with PP struggles too. Hard to come by
Link to comment
Share on other sites

At least he is getting knocked down. Do you want to tell me how Marchand draws so many penalties?? Or how he doesn't get called for embellishment??? The guy did a friggin cartwheel a couple of weeks ago, how was that not called a penalty or reviewed afterwards.

I'd be okay with SUbban getting called or getting fined if there was consistency and a lack of bias on the calls.

I totally agree. It's really hard to find consistency and sometimes feels like a conspiracy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I sent this to Kerry Fraser earlier today (because I like his "C'mon Ref" column on TSN.CA). He probably won't even read it, but I think it's relevant to this thread. (And yes, I am a "dispassionate observer" -my habs fandom is tempered by the fact that I wish Subban HAD been called for embellishment on the ice - my Fantasy hockey pool rates PIMs as a positive thing and I'm in need of 2 more of them right now, desperately. Subban's on my team!)

I want to talk a bit -- not so much about a specific case -- but a general trend. It’s obvious that the NHL wants to crack down on diving and embellishment (I separate those two things in my mind, as I’ll explain later). While this isn’t a horrible idea, I think they’re attacking a symptom rather than the problem.

The recent fine to PK Subban for his third Embellishment this season got me thinking more about this. (When watching the replay as a dispassionate observer, I could see a decent argument either way, and since no penalty was called against Subban on the play, I’d be reluctant in the NHL office to make that call. I’m not convinced it was embellishment - at the speed he was skating and the way he was suddenly yanked backwards, he may have simply been pulled down. I don’t think Newton’s laws of motion allow for such violent embellishment without major assistance from the stick that was pulling on him.) Regardless of whether Subban helped “sell” the case, there was clearly an infraction by the opposing player. If Subban helped sell it by adding a touch of flourish onto his fall, then yes, that’s textbook embellishment. Embellishment in my mind is just that - attempting to “lampshade" an opposing infraction to assist the referee in seeing it. The league frowns on this. However, I believe the reason the league frowns on this is not because it is “cheating.” It is because it showcases a deficiency in the officiating. If the refs were going to call those things to start with, they wouldn’t need to “embellish."

So why not call the infraction, instead of calling the result? Other than possibly tripping, I don’t know of any infraction that requires the victim to fall to the ice. (And I’m not sure about tripping.) Hooking, Roughing, Crosschecking, Slashing, Holding, Holding the Stick, Interference, Boarding, High Sticking - they all allow for a call to be made even if there is no discernable effect on the player that was fouled. So why not call them? Ignore the result - the player doesn’t need to fall, and falling won’t draw a penalty on the opponent if no infraction occurred. Penalize the offending action instead? And do it consistently, with zero tolerance?

Of course, that still leaves Diving. I said I view Diving as separate from Embellishment. If Embellishment attempts to lampshade an actual infraction, I see it as only mildly distasteful. Diving is different - diving is the worst kind of cheating. Diving is trying to draw a penalty for an infraction that was not committed at all. Personally, I think Diving should be a 5 minute major and a game misconduct. There’s nothing unsportsmanlike about embellishing a bit to get the call you deserve, but trying to frame your opponent for something they didn’t do should never be tolerated.

Much like the ineffective and terribly enforced Interference directive from a decade ago, I doubt the NHL could ever pull this off. The number of penalties that would initially be called would raise criticism from all sides. But don’t you think the end result could be worth it? Don’t you think it’s better to fix the problem that causes embellishment, than merely try to treat the symptoms?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I saw the instances where Subban was called for diving, and as much as I lie Subban, I have to say that he DID dive and his fines are merited. Now does Subban get calls when other players are actually clutching and grabbing him? Probably not so he feels like he needs to exaggerate to get the calls...but all he's doing is getting in more trouble. P.K. should concentrate on playing the game and the calls against the other players will come!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...