REV-G Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 I hope we aren't falling to the same foolishness Toronto seems to have been captivated by. Their goal in recent years seems to be just to make the playoffs. If that's what our focus is right now I believe we're wrong. We have been in the middle of the pack for a quite a few years now, or lower. We have to do something to get better. Last year we saw that free agents [both Arnott and Shanahan that we know of] may not be that eager to come to Montreal where they take such a hit taxwise. We have been building through the draft but being in the middle of the pack makes it more unlikely that we'll get a top five player in the draft which is what this team needs. So when we have assets that we can trade to get either top draft choices, top prospects or goal scorers now, I don't understand why we want to stand pat just to make the playoffs. In the next two days we're going to see what our managements philosophy really is. Sourey is having a year that he has never had before and may never have again. We could improve our team for the future by getting at least a top prospect and a high pick, if not more, by trading him now. For the owner playoff dates are important for the bottom line financially. But I think for most fans, missing the playoffs one year in order to improve our team and move us ahead of just the middle of the pack, is probably more important. We'll find our what their goals are in the next two days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Absolutley Sheldon Souray should be dealt before the trade deadline. Montreal definitley cannot win the Stanley Cup, and will infact be lucky to make the playoffs. Why hold on to him when its all but certain he's going to walk away for nothing in a few months time. By Montreal trading him they can strengthen the team for next year with a good prospect/young player and years in the future with draft picks. The price for Souray would probably be just below what Forsberg returned. Kieth Tkachuk has reportedly been dealt for a mix of draft picks including a 1st rounder and a player of the Atlanta roster who has yet to be named. I agree that this team cannot just look to make the playoffs this year for money and fans sake. They have to look to tommorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 I couldn't agree more. For a team in our - mediocre - position, the goal should be to assemble 'assets' for a Cup run. There's no better means of aquiring such assets than trading Souray, for whom you certainly could get a major cog for the future. As for the argument that 'management can't betray the players that are working so hard to make the playoffs right now,' my response is: all those players had to do was NOT SUCK ASS for most of the entire second half. It's their own mediocrity that has established the need for a fundamental upgrade of the core. Tough titty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beliveau1 Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 (edited) A lot of younger fans will probably disagree with this topic, especially seeing that patience is not a commodity in great supply today? However I have to say that I can tolerate a year out of the playoffs, provided the team does something to upgrade this team without costing too much of the future. As it stands right now this team is not a bona fide Stanley Cup contender. It has some potential to become one eventually, but right now it is merely a long shot chance to win the Cup. Yes there will be those who say look at Edmonton - but the fact is they were not real contenders when the puck dropped for the opening round of last years playoffs. Everything fell into place for them and the rest is history. And for those Habs fans who are deceived by that dream, I say you should just look at them this year.... still struggling to find a place in the playoffs? I don't think you need to blow up the entire core of this team as some suggest, however it does need some tinkering. The departure of Rivet is the first step in doing just that. It leaves the team in a better position to sign Markov, and possibly even Souray. However I hope they can deal him for even more by the deadline. The price anted up for the recent trades makes one wonder just how much of an inflated value he might bring in return. Brian Burke may not like the current terms, but the price has been much higher than they should actually be when you look at the last three major deals. Tuesday should be an interesting day and I'm looking forward to what Gainey does leading up to it. Missing the playoffs this year won't be the worst nightmare I can envision for this team - selling the future for a glimmer of hope this year would make me sick. Let's not be the Leaf's and their legion of dumbstruck fans. Hoping every year just to get into the playoffs and thinking that means you are a legitimate contender? :hlogo: Edited February 25, 2007 by beliveau1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revin5 Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 I was all for trading Souray back in early January, when we could have traded for players.. now we'll probably get prospect and picks which won't get us far in the playoffs. Back then it was all but settled that Souray was absolutely 100% going to California as soon as he became a free agent, but from what I've heard he would prefer to be out there, but would consider playing here anyways. If we can keep him, then we should (so long as we don't lose Markov because of it). Now that we traded Rivet, Gainey just has to pull the trigger on one more trade, a rental, and we'll be stocked for the playoffs... so the question is.. what do we need? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 George Gillett would hate this thread I think that the team should always always aim higher. That's what is written on the wall in the room. "Hold It High". Whether or not they trade Souray shouldn't change the question of whether or not to make the post season. Gainey will certainly trade for an NHL roster D to replace Souray if he moves him. Whether or not Gainey does that doesn't mean he making a decision on the season. Hypothetically, if they could get Matt Carle as that roster player and if we play well from here on in, we should be OK. Gainey is not a quitter and will squeeze every last option before he gives up on the playoffs. He also will not do anything dumb to jeopardise the team. Trust In BOb :hlogo: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Aiming to make the playoffs is not a good idea and I remember watching a Roy interview where he said that M. Tremblay changed the atmosphere and mind set of the dressing room from winning the cup to making the playoffs since then the Habs have never been TRUE CUP CONTENDERS. But giving up now is pointless the east is such a crap shoot that no team is set to make the playoffs except for New Jersey in Buffalo. The other 8 teams are seperated by about 10 points which is nothing. The Habs could still get home ice or finish in 12th there is still time left. The season in my opinon rests on 7 games against the Leafs and Bruins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beliveau1 Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) No the Canadiens shouldn't aim to miss the playoffs, but they shouldn't just aim to make them either..... If they can make them that's great; but don't go out and sell a bunch of good talent this year just in order to sneak into the playoffs..... this team should not take its' cue from the Leafs who have mortgaged their future time and again for just that mentality! :puke: :puke: :puke: Edited February 26, 2007 by beliveau1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 That's the beauty of it. The GM won't mortgage the future. We are in good hands It wouldn't surprise me if T.O. went out and acquired Guerin. I hope they do it and sink ever more behind in youth depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummerman Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 I think if the Habs lose on Monday it will be very hard for them to make the playoffs with all those games in hand the Leafs and islanders have. If they lose I see Souray traded and in this market its gonna be for some great drafts and young players. I think if a team could afford Kovy they may take him as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 I agree with the idea of this thread. It would suck to miss the playoffs (I'd love to snag the 8th seed though because then we can play Buffalo who I think we have a chance against) but we can get a goldmine in return for Souray. And let's say we trade Souray to Anaheim and he struggles there. Maybe he'll remember his success in Montreal in try to come back here. You never know. What I do know is that Gainey will not let us down and if he does trade Souray, we'll get a shitload for him. If he hangs on to Souray I think it MAY mean he thinks he has a shot at re-signing him in the summer. Because there's no sense keeping him for a half-assed attempt at the Cup when we can get such a good return for him and STILL have almost just as good a chance of bringing him back in the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 I agree with the idea of this thread. It would suck to miss the playoffs (I'd love to snag the 8th seed though because then we can play Buffalo who I think we have a chance against) but we can get a goldmine in return for Souray. And let's say we trade Souray to Anaheim and he struggles there. Maybe he'll remember his success in Montreal in try to come back here. You never know. What I do know is that Gainey will not let us down and if he does trade Souray, we'll get a shitload for him. If he hangs on to Souray I think it MAY mean he thinks he has a shot at re-signing him in the summer. Because there's no sense keeping him for a half-assed attempt at the Cup when we can get such a good return for him and STILL have almost just as good a chance of bringing him back in the summer. St. Louis just got 3 picks for Keith Tkachuk Philly got BRAYDON COUBURN for Zhitnik!!!?????? Philly got 2 picks and 2 prospects for Forsberg With that type of return I would deal Souray. Their is no Stanley Cup coming this season. And if we lose to the Leafs tomorrow what makes you think they can raise the bar for the rest of the season. The goal is the Cup, it should always be the Cup. Personally, getting knocked out in the first round is no different than missing the playoffs. Just a worse draft pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 So we're saying the exact same thing, Wamsley. You made it sound like you were disagreeing with me. Just clarifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Who says we have to sell anybody to make the playoffs? Funny how at the begining of the year most people thought Habs were Cup contenders, and now because of a slump the same people want to sell the farm. The Habs goal currently has to be to make the playoffs. At the beginning of te year there was so much promise, to not even make the playoffs to give them a chance would be bad for team moral. We still have basically the same players we started the season with, they just need to get back to basics and start playing hockey again. I'm starting to beleive that having Carbo Muller and Jarvis is almost a hindrance. It almost seems like the Habs are way to focused on Defense that they have forgot about having to actually score goals. After reading some of yourposts regularily enough I almost have to come to the conclusion that your knowledge of hockey is solely limited to having to put the puck in the net. Trade Souray? Act now Bob, there's still time to catch Philly!! I'm really glad Bob's the GM and not some of you. Trading Souray IMO would be one of the dumbest things Bob could possibly do right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobRock Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Isn't making the playoffs every team's primary goal? You can't win a Cup without making the playoffs first. I'm sure Ed Snider didn't walk into Ken Hitchcock's office or Bobby Clarke's back in September and say, "You know, we haven't had a first overall pick in such a long time. I want to stink so bad that we finish last overall and get the best possible shot at the top draft pick." A number of people also seem dead certain that Souray's gone July 1, so he should be dealt now. I guess it's a case of preferring to do the dumping over being dumped. But I can say this with some certainty, if you deal Souray, you can definitely kiss the playoffs goodbye. Which is probably why he won't be dealt. I can't see Gainey getting another blueliner this season that can replace the offense he'd provide. There's no sign that the 5-on-5 play is getting any better offensively, so dealing one of your best powerplay weapons would be effectively throwing in the towel on this year, something Gainey and the coaching staff never did as players, not when there was still a chance visible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 I don't want to trade Souray because I do not think he is coming back. I want to trade Souray because he is having a career season and he will not post another year like this again, hence he has and probably never will have this type of value ever again. Trade him at his peak. He is not worth 5-6 million a year. Look at McCabe in Toronto, career year, big contract, back to reality! There are a handful of defensemen who deserve 5- 6 million a year and Sheldon is not one of them. In a cap world you have to be certain that the guys you pay that type of money will play at that type of level for the duration of the contract. Souray would be our highest paid player next season, do you expect him to be our best player for the next 5 years? Because that would be the commitment from the Habs to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REV-G Posted February 26, 2007 Author Share Posted February 26, 2007 I don't want to trade Souray because I do not think he is coming back. I want to trade Souray because he is having a career season and he will not post another year like this again, hence he has and probably never will have this type of value ever again. Trade him at his peak. He is not worth 5-6 million a year. Look at McCabe in Toronto, career year, big contract, back to reality! There are a handful of defensemen who deserve 5- 6 million a year and Sheldon is not one of them. In a cap world you have to be certain that the guys you pay that type of money will play at that type of level for the duration of the contract. Souray would be our highest paid player next season, do you expect him to be our best player for the next 5 years? Because that would be the commitment from the Habs to him. I agree with one of your points but disagree with another. First, Bob Gainey likely already knows if Sourey is wanting to return to Montreal or be out west, closer ot his daughter. If Gainely knows Sourey isn't likely to return he must trade him before he trade deadline. To lose a player for nothing, when you could likely get a first round pick plus a good prospect, would be disasterous for us. So if you know Sourey ios not coming back, trade him for sure. But I agree with you when you say Sourey is not worth 5-6 million a year and likely won't have this type of value again. Good point and I believe it's true. So let's get out of our mediocre, middle of the pack reality, and move forward with making smart moves for the future, not just to get into the first round of the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 I don't get this view that if we don't trade Souray, then he leaves and we get nothing. We don't get nothing. We get one of the top offensive defensemen for the rest of the season and the playoffs. We need that. Will we win the cup? Probably not, but we have a shot, just like about 16 other teams in this parity year. Maybe they will make it 3 rounds and get a pile of money into the system and restore a bit of glory to the team. Free agents will want to come to Montreal in the off season. Souray will think, I should sign here, I will have a chance at a cup.... At some point, you have to stop trading the good players on your team for perpetual draft picks. We have plenty of picks right now. If Souray costs too much at the end of the season to resign, let him go and sign another top defenseman with the money you saved. Or perhaps a top two center. I think Gainey did the right thing. He traded a so-so defenseman (Rivet) who would not make or break our run for a young prospect and a top draft pick. Sheesh, a lot of people thought that was a good return for Souray! So we got the return, and kept Souray for the final push.... Genius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bar Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 So not gonna win the stanely cup..hmmm anyone wanna make a 1,000,000 to 1 bet on that? Seriously though...why this year? In a year where everyone says this draft is weak why would you want to drop out of a playoff position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Seriously, sign Souray for a 3 years deal right now or trade Souray for 1rst rounders pick and prospects right now... I'd prefer the 1rst option, but the 2nd one wouldn't make me feel bad... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) Who says we have to sell anybody to make the playoffs? Funny how at the begining of the year most people thought Habs were Cup contenders, and now because of a slump the same people want to sell the farm. The Habs goal currently has to be to make the playoffs. At the beginning of te year there was so much promise, to not even make the playoffs to give them a chance would be bad for team moral. We still have basically the same players we started the season with, they just need to get back to basics and start playing hockey again. I'm starting to beleive that having Carbo Muller and Jarvis is almost a hindrance. It almost seems like the Habs are way to focused on Defense that they have forgot about having to actually score goals. After reading some of yourposts regularily enough I almost have to come to the conclusion that your knowledge of hockey is solely limited to having to put the puck in the net. Trade Souray? Act now Bob, there's still time to catch Philly!! I'm really glad Bob's the GM and not some of you. Trading Souray IMO would be one of the dumbest things Bob could possibly do right now. It's all true, but the problem is : every team involved in the playoffs race seems to play better since the 2 last weeks (toronto, Islanders, Boston, Pittsburgh). Well, the only team who is losing chances by these days is the Canadien. Huet, Begin, Kovy, Higgins have all been injured and who can say they will not come back too fast and get injured again? Kovy said he will play at 70% WTF do you guys think Antropov and McCabe ignore that? Unfortunately, even with Souray, i doubt the job will be done to clinch the race for the playoffs... Make me lie HABS plz. Edited February 26, 2007 by JoeLassister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athlétique.Canadien Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 It's good thing that in '93 Serge didn't respond to our huge end of season slump and decide to dump Bellows and LeCalir or some other player because we wouldn't win and a higher pick would be better. What type of policy is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullsmith Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 There has been a huge change in the Canadiens drafting success that began with Andre Savard and has continued under Gainey. Right now, we have far more young cheap talent in the system than we have had in twenty years. First round picks like Higgins and Komisarek are turning into top-two-line NHLers, and we're finding guys deep in the draft too. At least a couple of good rookies have been making the team for three straight seasons now, and this trend looks set to continue for at least a few years to come. This is a major difference between where we are now and where the Leafs or, or in fact where we were a decade ago. The team is ready to become a contender in the next couple of seasons, and to do that we can't just unload all our veteran talent. Guys like Koivu and Souray are ultra valuable, although not untouchable. That said, I would love to get a real star or a top-three draft pick. We're not going to get either for Souray directly, as the teams who want him aren't selling stars and aren't bottom dwellers, but we could likely amass enough pieces to move up at the draft. Going for a top draft pick doesn't pay off for a few years at best though, even if it works out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyhasbeen Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Ummm.... if you don't make the playoffs you don't win cups. Make it and an average team, such as Carolina,can get hot. Happens more often then the Presidents winner gets the cup. You don't need to have a team that domintes all year to win the cup, actually it is better not to. I would draft last every year if it means we make the dance every year. 1st over all is highly over rated, except for the odd year when Crosby is available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) The 93 team did not sell of assets because the core of the 93 team had been to the 86 Finals and the 89 Finals and was built to win the Stanley Cup. Their slump also dropped them from 1st place overall to 6th overall. And they Habs were 44 points from missing the playoffs. For Savard to tank would have made absolutely no sense. Add to the fact that most of the losses came after the trade deadline. So the comparison is not a good one. It is true you cannot win the Cup without making the playoffs, but comparing the Habs at this point to Carolina last season, a team that finished with 112 points and 4th overall in the league is nonsense. If you want to make a comparison, compare the Habs to the Oilers/Flames/Ducks/Canes 02. Those teams battled hard over the last 3-4 weeks to make the playoffs and caught Lightning in a bottle and STILL lost in the Stanley Cup Finals. And 3 of the 4 missed the playoffs the next year. Bob made a good trade yesterday and if he can flip that 1st rounder and the 3rd rounder from the Johnson deal and a mid level prospect to get a rental..than go for it. You are essentially trading scraps from the Zednik/Rivet deals to upgrade. But the fact remains that keeping Souray is suicide. I love Souray's toughness, I love his Booming PP shot, I do not love his 1 on 1 play and his inconsistent defensive zone coverages. As far as I am concerned if you are going to pay $5-6 Million a year for a defenceman his name better be Pronger/Niedermayer or Lidstrom. You cannot make mistakes in the new salary cap era! Bob has already made 2. Kovalev is not playing at the $4 Million level and neither is Koivu. That is why we are struggling, because the guys who have to pick up their slack are all Kids, and Kids are inconsistent. Higgins looked like and All-Star for a month, so does Ryder right now, but they go through stretches of being invisible. Look at Lats, he looked like the second coming on the first line and has been invisible for 2 months now. Pleks, Perez etc etc. This team is not made for a run this year, they are trying to remain competitive with the eye on a Cup run in a couple of years. They have said as much. I will be fine with them keeping Souray and letting him walk after the season, but barring a run to the Stanley Cup Finals if Souray walks people will be bitching and moaning about the missed opportunity to unload Souray for a big package. If Rivet got us a 1st and a kid, what would Souray command? Souray at $5 Million a year...NO THANKS! Edited February 26, 2007 by Wamsley01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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