JoeLassister Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 He's trying to get no talent on the ice. Kinda like the HWL Flyers. Snap ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 He's trying to get no talent on the ice. Kinda like the HWL Flyers. You mean keeping all the talent in Hamilton so the Habs can tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Why would you want Patches in the AHL when he's progressing every game and is on the up-swing? If a player would be improving in the minors, he should probably be in the minors. ...But we can't send him down because we have nobody else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) If a player would be improving in the minors, he should probably be in the minors. ...But we can't send him down because we have nobody else. That was the same rationale that led to Lats being put on the team to early and look how good that has turned out with Lats really not progressing much during his time in the league. Pax should be put in a position where he can get a chance to dominate. He clearly is not going to do that at the NHL level. YOu have to look at the big picture when dealing with young players. As much as I hate the big fat BB, i think Toronto made the right move with Kadri, by sending him back to junior. I think the ducks were frustrated with Bobby Ryan but last year he finally break out, and like most young players is now struggling after his big break out year.. Most guys not named crosby, Ovechkin benefit from a stint in the minors. Hell if it was possible and there wasn't the issue of clearing waivers the best thing for even Lats is to spend a month in Hamilton. To bad he couldn't get a not to serious injury that would allow the habs to send him down to Hamilton on a conditioning stint. AK46 is also struggling and trying to find his way after breaking out two years ago. As the coach, Martin needs to find ways to get AK46 going - thats his job. A coach needs to find a way to go push the right buttons on his players. You can't try the same approach to get through to every player and clearly Martin's approach isn't working. We gave away with Ribeiro and Ryder (not that I liked either but we dumped Ribeiro for nothing and hung out to Ryder until he had no trade value and we are headed in the same direction with AK46. The way they are handling him, I think we are going to see him being dumped for a bag of pucks and then regret it when he breaks out somewhere else. Edited November 3, 2009 by hab29RETIRED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) Martin needs to find ways to get AK46 going - thats his job. A coach needs to find a way to go push the right buttons on his players. You can't try the same approach to get through to every player and clearly Martin's approach isn't working. That would make 3 different coaches who have been unable to get him going. Let's not forget that AK46 woe's started last year, when carbo was still behind the bench. Carbo, Gainey and Martin seem to be unable to motivate his lazy ass. I know I said earlier that I'd like it if the Habs were patient with the guy, but maybe a couple of games in the stands will motivate him?! Edited November 3, 2009 by Habsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) That would make 3 different coaches who have been unable to get him going. Let's not forget that AK46 woe's started last year, when carbo was still behind the bench. Carbo, Gainey and Martin seem to be unable to motivate his lazy ass. I know I said earlier that I'd like it if the Habs were patient with the guy, but maybe a couple of games in the stands will motivate him?! Not sure if I'd agree about sitting him out. The guy actually looks like he is trying - problem is that he also looks completely lost. Last year he actually was on a tear, but I think The much ado about nothing that Senator Demers said it made him ashamed and would shake the canadians foundation, really seemed to effect him. As far as coaching of gainey - I'd say that for 80% of the team it was a going from a disaster situation with Carbo to a bad situation with gainey. Edited November 3, 2009 by hab29RETIRED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iron Lung Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 He's a slow starter. As usual, people need to chill out and he needs to get his ice time back. Skill needs to be nurtured... few have his level of skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 He's a slow starter. As usual, people need to chill out and he needs to get his ice time back. Skill needs to be nurtured... few have his level of skill. I agree he is a slow starter. But he needs to produce. Tonight he was decent, great assist on the Metro goal, but two silly plays and could not get the puck out but another positive was his physical play. Still not time to dump because no sense dumping what has no value better to hold on and trade when hot if that is the Canadiens plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patience is a virtue Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 It took a bit of digging back to 2009 to find an AK focused thread (passed no less than 4 old threads titled "PK Subban" along the way). For me, AK's future and whether to trade him before the deadline if the Habs can't pull off a miracle, is the biggest question facing PG right now. Moen, Gill, Campoli, are minor matters in comparison to AK. A lot of the above writing from Oct-Nov 2009 still applies. What have we learned about AK since this thread was last active? Should the Habs make AK an offer before the deadline, or line up a trade? And what the heck is going on with the 4th line minutes? Did I miss something? He seemed to be having a decent year and good chemistry with Eller. Are they trying to undermine his production in order to secure him at a reduced rate going forward? That seems a stretch. What's the explanation for having him in the dog house with Gomer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Coaches always develop a dislike for certain players, for whatever reason. AK46 is notoriously inconsistent and cannot be counted on to bring his 'A' game with anything resembling reliability. Perhaps that ticks Cunneyworth off. More likely, AK has received specific instructions and has consistely failed to implement them - which I believe is the most common reason for ending up in a coach's doghouse. If I tell player X that he needs to work on this and that, and then he doesn't work on them, then I really have no choice but to apply the screws. This is another area where hiring a 'temporary' coach is stupid. The team has to make a fundamental decision about Kostitsyn, but that decision is now being muddied by Cunneyworth, who isn't likely to be here to deal with the consequences. As I insisted at the time, we never should have fired Martin - at least not in mid-season like we did. If you can sign AK on the cheap as a 20/20 man with good physicality but no more than that, then do it. Otherwise, ship him out for the 2nd-rounder he is likely to command. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Just so everyone's aware, there will be a Kostitsyn value thread next week as the final in our ATB segment. Typing that reminds me that I need to start the Gill thread too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Coaches always develop a dislike for certain players, for whatever reason. AK46 is notoriously inconsistent and cannot be counted on to bring his 'A' game with anything resembling reliability. Perhaps that ticks Cunneyworth off. More likely, AK has received specific instructions and has consistely failed to implement them - which I believe is the most common reason for ending up in a coach's doghouse. If I tell player X that he needs to work on this and that, and then he doesn't work on them, then I really have no choice but to apply the screws. This is another area where hiring a 'temporary' coach is stupid. The team has to make a fundamental decision about Kostitsyn, but that decision is now being muddied by Cunneyworth, who isn't likely to be here to deal with the consequences. As I insisted at the time, we never should have fired Martin - at least not in mid-season like we did. If you can sign AK on the cheap as a 20/20 man with good physicality but no more than that, then do it. Otherwise, ship him out for the 2nd-rounder he is likely to command. so we can trade a 2nd round pick for a body checking 20+ goal scorer in summer? Sweet deal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 so we can trade a 2nd round pick for a body checking 20+ goal scorer in summer? Sweet deal! Hmm. Perhaps I should put it another way. Don't overpay just to keep Kostitsyn. Over $4 mil for this guy seems a stretch. He probably wants to 'test the market,' so my guess is we should trade him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 so we can trade a 2nd round pick for a body checking 20+ goal scorer in summer? Sweet deal! If you don't re-sign Kostitsyn soon, you'll lose him in the summer with no return. So the copntract situation certainly affects his value.I'm convinced Kost is done in this organization, he's been teetering on a precipice for so long where a little bit better and he's a core guy, but a little worse and he's gone. He seems to have fallen to the gone side of that equation in recent weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 If you don't re-sign Kostitsyn soon, you'll lose him in the summer with no return. So the copntract situation certainly affects his value.I'm convinced Kost is done in this organization, he's been teetering on a precipice for so long where a little bit better and he's a core guy, but a little worse and he's gone. He seems to have fallen to the gone side of that equation in recent weeks. i know, just keep thinking before we trade Moan/Kostitsyn we should make sure we can replace them for what we trade em for at least, or have some plan. Gill/Campoli/that Finn/Weber/Desharnais all can go today and that is great by me, just these 2 i am on the fence about shipping out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 i know, just keep thinking before we trade Moan/Kostitsyn we should make sure we can replace them for what we trade em for at least, or have some plan. Gill/Campoli/that Finn/Weber/Desharnais all can go today and that is great by me, just these 2 i am on the fence about shipping out. Desharnais - ? You know, despite his diminutive stature DD is 25, still young and still developing. He's on a pace for 59 points. If he can raise his game one more notch, we're looking at a 65-70 point C who makes his linemates better as is cheap. I wouldn't be in any tearing hurry to move him just yet. As for Gill and Kostitsyn, neither is irreplaceable, although Gill has a specialized skill-set that seems particularly rare, notwithstanding his other limitations. Your concern about replacing them is valid but shouldn't be the overwhelming consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Desharnais - ? You know, despite his diminutive stature DD is 25, still young and still developing. He's on a pace for 59 points. If he can raise his game one more notch, we're looking at a 65-70 point C who makes his linemates better as is cheap. I wouldn't be in any tearing hurry to move him just yet. As for Gill and Kostitsyn, neither is irreplaceable, although Gill has a specialized skill-set that seems particularly rare, notwithstanding his other limitations. Your concern about replacing them is valid but shouldn't be the overwhelming consideration. Desharnais is better because of his linemates, not the other way around. His linemates are the two best wingers on the team with more proven track records than he has. I'm fine with Dessy, but let's not get carried away here. He's easily the third best player on that line. Pacioretty was scoring at that rate with Gomez in decline as his centre last year. The card in hand is usually better than the UFA option. Kostitsyn at $4m-$4.5m is reasonable. It'd be nice if we had a coach who didn't so enthusiastically bench him for a change. When you're down a goal, you play Kostitsyn over Palushaj and Darche, no matter how good Palushaj or Darche have played the past week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Desharnais is better because of his linemates, not the other way around. His linemates are the two best wingers on the team with more proven track records than he has. I'm fine with Dessy, but let's not get carried away here. He's easily the third best player on that line. Pacioretty was scoring at that rate with Gomez in decline as his centre last year. The card in hand is usually better than the UFA option. Kostitsyn at $4m-$4.5m is reasonable. It'd be nice if we had a coach who didn't so enthusiastically bench him for a change. When you're down a goal, you play Kostitsyn over Palushaj and Darche, no matter how good Palushaj or Darche have played the past week. AK is playing himself out of the organization, and you want to give him a million dollar raise? I honestly don't see it. Especially considering the raises Pacioretty, PK, and Carey are going to get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Desharnais - ? You know, despite his diminutive stature DD is 25, still young and still developing. He's on a pace for 59 points. If he can raise his game one more notch, we're looking at a 65-70 point C who makes his linemates better as is cheap. I wouldn't be in any tearing hurry to move him just yet. As for Gill and Kostitsyn, neither is irreplaceable, although Gill has a specialized skill-set that seems particularly rare, notwithstanding his other limitations. Your concern about replacing them is valid but shouldn't be the overwhelming consideration. Not Gill, Moan. and i didnt say Moan nor Kostitsyn is irreplacable, just not sold on whether better to trade or just resign, that all. And i love Desharnais's play and think he will only get better, but if gonna reshape Habs, just cant have Plekanec and Desharnais as top 2 centres. And i think Desharnais is the biggest trade asset Gauthier has, especially at his salary/value, i am sure many rebuilding teams would have an interest in; say a package deal of Desharnais and Weber. I highly doubt Desharnais is going anywhere, but i would shop him for sure, but dealing him or a Plekanec would be more a July 1st deal anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Coaches always develop a dislike for certain players, for whatever reason. AK46 is notoriously inconsistent and cannot be counted on to bring his 'A' game with anything resembling reliability. Perhaps that ticks Cunneyworth off. More likely, AK has received specific instructions and has consistely failed to implement them - which I believe is the most common reason for ending up in a coach's doghouse. If I tell player X that he needs to work on this and that, and then he doesn't work on them, then I really have no choice but to apply the screws. This is another area where hiring a 'temporary' coach is stupid. The team has to make a fundamental decision about Kostitsyn, but that decision is now being muddied by Cunneyworth, who isn't likely to be here to deal with the consequences. As I insisted at the time, we never should have fired Martin - at least not in mid-season like we did. If you can sign AK on the cheap as a 20/20 man with good physicality but no more than that, then do it. Otherwise, ship him out for the 2nd-rounder he is likely to command. One thing I worry about, and there's no way for outsiders to know, is what do coaches ask of a guy like Kostitsyn? Does every coach come in with the same "you don't backcheck, you don't play" mentality, thinking they would succeed where other coaches failed? He's extremely inconsistent, yes, but if he's still getting benched because of it, that's ridiculous. A coach should know his players, and a coach for the Habs should know that AK is dangerous, but inconsistent. Give him his share of ice time and let him do his thing. When he explodes for 5 goals in games, enjoy it, and when he's in a 15 game drought, well, you knew it was coming, let him play through it. He always does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 If any team is looking for a second line center with second line potential, they are likely going to speak to Toronto for Grabovski. Anyway, about Kostitsyn, Commandant knows I want him out. He's one of those players I've never liked wearing a Hab uniform. He's also now redundant due to getting Rene Bourque who is a similar player with similar inconsistencies signed for another four seasons after this. I'd much prefer to trade him and draft somebody with a better head on their shoulders for the future with the pick we get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Andrei is exactly what most realists always thought he was a guy who can score 20-30 goals when healthy with very long hard to watch slumps. Could be explode and score 40 somewhere? I doubt it but in a better situation who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I think Kostitsyn could have an explosive season under the right circumstances. It's not unheard of for a player to have a freak year and he certainly has the talent. I don't believe he will ever consistently be an elite player, though; his career has in fact been a paragon of consistency: 20/20. Now, pair him with a Crosby, his numbers will likely be inflated, but that won't be because he suddenly gets awesome. DON, I'm a bit leery of Desharnais myself, but before we anoint him the artificial beneficiary of amazing linemates, we should consider that Pacioretty originally broke out when paired with him and has always emphasized his excellence and their chemistry. I see the reason for doubts about DD, but given his age and track record I think we have to be careful about being too easily dismissive of his potential. We don't want to pull a Phoenix, letting a Brière go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I'll be furious if we dump Kostitsyn and don't improve our roster by packaging him with other assets. Dumping him for a pick will get you NOTHING else than drafting another Kostitsyn. I'd much rather package him with a Plek and a 1st for a true #1 C for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 AK is playing himself out of the organization, and you want to give him a million dollar raise? I honestly don't see it. Especially considering the raises Pacioretty, PK, and Carey are going to get. Kostitsyn signed his last deal 3 years ago when the cap was a lot less. I don't see this as a "raise", really. One can sign Subban ($3.75m), Price ($5.5m), and Kostitsyn to raises and still come up with about $5m in cap space if you take out the Gomez deal for next year, room enough to get another player to help out. I personally refuse to let the poor judgements of a career AHL coach who won't be brought back to the organization next season dictate how this franchise proceeds. We need good players, Kostistyn is still a good player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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