tokyohabs Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Beauchemin at 4m, Jay Bo at 8.5; Marleau in a trade (Plex, A Kost, S Kost, Halak). Coach. Vet goalie backup. D coach. Turning my fantasy NHL in my brain off now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Everyone that seriously think Mike Komisarek will get under 5M$ anywhere in the league is out of his mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 So, all it takes is ONE team to want a player. Game over. Look at Redden, who else bid over $5M for him? He ends up with over $6M. I will be you anything that you would have bet your life on Redden not getting 5 years @ 6.5M. Never underestimate the stupidity of GMs in the NHL. thing is, this year, it's gonna start at 2M instead of 5M. sure it might get to 4M-5M... not to 6.5M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitforming Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 (edited) I usually refrain from this type of thing because.... well, I hate it... it never works out that way but here we go. Ok let's just for shits and giggles say Komi gets $6M. That puts our cap to what $29M? Add Beauchmin at $4M Tanguay at $5M and Koivu at $4M. Now we are at $42M (just an estimate... simmer down number freaks ) Our D becomes (in no particular pairing) Beauchemin-Komisarek Markov- Gorges Hamrlik - O'Byrne/Subban/ Weber/Yemelin/ McDonagh/Bouillion(if he's cheap to keep) At forward we have Tanguay- Koivu- A.Kostitsyn Higgins- Plex- D'ago/Pacioretty/S.Kost Kotopolous-Lappy- Lats Metropolit- Chipchura-Laraque Not terrible considering the overpayment of Komi and the caps space remaining for maybe a guy like Gaborik (who even at $8M only puts us to roughly $50M cap hit with the cap expected to be around $52-$53M).... and no, he would not be my choice, just an example of a big money player. Edited May 28, 2009 by Habitforming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Except for that is basically the same lineup as last year. Did you like those results? Koivu is a year older and slower. Having Kovalev off the team is fine by me. You add 1 defensemen to a team that was bottom 5 defenseively, not much of an upgrade. The team will need significant upgrade to talent and character to be a contender. I think it will take much more then adding 1 D and losing Kovalev. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitforming Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 (edited) Except for that is basically the same lineup as last year. Did you like those results? Koivu is a year older and slower. Having Kovalev off the team is fine by me. You add 1 defensemen to a team that was bottom 5 defenseively, not much of an upgrade. The team will need significant upgrade to talent and character to be a contender. I think it will take much more then adding 1 D and losing Kovalev. yeah that is an improvement. It's that cut and dry huh? the same team equals the same results? Tell that to the Bruins from 8th to 1st. You also forgot about an $8M player counted in there. I love how you leave out the important parts to be argumentitive. I don't think the top 6 forwards will spend most of the season injured do you? Edited May 28, 2009 by Habitforming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 You never know about injuries. I just don't have confidence in a team that back tracked so far in 1 year. Regardless of who the players are, they were lazy, soft, easy to play against, the D was god awful, they are slow footed and refuse to do what it takes to win. Those were characteristics of the players, i didn't even mention any names, until those things change, the team will continue to fight for an 8 seed. I am tired of mediocrity and want a big change. If you like these players that's fine, it doesn't bother me. I am pointing out that swapping out 2 guys isn't going to change the culture. After a dominant year they wound up getting a coach fired half way through the year. And yes, if you asked me if Boston would be better then the habs this year, i would have said yes. Julian changed the culture of losing, laziness and defense. Something habs coaches have tried for the last 15 years without success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 104 points is a good to very good season. It isn't dominant. People remember they finished first but forget that first in the East in 2007-08 was an incredibly low points total for top dog. They were just 11 points clear of 9th place... and that 9th place team finished in 6th this year and went to the Conference Finals. That lineup posted above... you do realize that Higgins, Latendresse and Plekanec are due raises as well? It's not that simple. Plus, Price needs a new deal the next year. These deals may be relatively cheap compared to the UFA ones out there, but they'll add up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 I usually refrain from this type of thing because.... well, I hate it... it never works out that way but here we go. Ok let's just for shits and giggles say Komi gets $6M. That puts our cap to what $29M? Add Beauchmin at $4M Tanguay at $5M and Koivu at $4M. Now we are at $42M (just an estimate... simmer down number freaks ) Our D becomes (in no particular pairing) Beauchemin-Komisarek Markov- Gorges Hamrlik - O'Byrne/Subban/ Weber/Yemelin/ McDonagh/Bouillion(if he's cheap to keep) At forward we have Tanguay- Koivu- A.Kostitsyn Higgins- Plex- D'ago/Pacioretty/S.Kost Kotopolous-Lappy- Lats Metropolit- Chipchura-Laraque Not terrible considering the overpayment of Komi and the caps space remaining for maybe a guy like Gaborik (who even at $8M only puts us to roughly $50M cap hit with the cap expected to be around $52-$53M).... and no, he would not be my choice, just an example of a big money player. Not to tear into you too much (I always like people who put forth the effort) but it seems to me you're missing contracts for the 3 saskhab mentioned as wellas D'Agostini, Chipchura, and Kostopoulos. On the main page of the site, I put up a figure just over 21.7 of committed contracts to next season - adding your 19 makes 40.7 - the 6 guys who need to be re-signed in your scenario will easily eat the 8 million for a big money player. When I sat down about a week ago and did multi-year projections of payroll (I needed to do it in order to answer certain questions that could arise down the road) , the only thing that popped up consistently is that if we give more than a couple UFA's multi-year deals (by that I mean 3+ years), we could be in serious trouble depending on how far the cap goes down based on who expires in the next couple of years. Having seen the results of the projections, I'm in favour of a 1-year retooling process moreso than trying to add a big name guy - short term pain for long term gain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitforming Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Not to tear into you too much (I always like people who put forth the effort) but it seems to me you're missing contracts for the 3 saskhab mentioned as wellas D'Agostini, Chipchura, and Kostopoulos. On the main page of the site, I put up a figure just over 21.7 of committed contracts to next season - adding your 19 makes 40.7 - the 6 guys who need to be re-signed in your scenario will easily eat the 8 million for a big money player. When I sat down about a week ago and did multi-year projections of payroll (I needed to do it in order to answer certain questions that could arise down the road) , the only thing that popped up consistently is that if we give more than a couple UFA's multi-year deals (by that I mean 3+ years), we could be in serious trouble depending on how far the cap goes down based on who expires in the next couple of years. Having seen the results of the projections, I'm in favour of a 1-year retooling process moreso than trying to add a big name guy - short term pain for long term gain. What makes you think the guys you and Saskhab mentioned are gonna eat up $8M in raises? None of them had break out years and possibly their season was so bad that they are actually worth a paycut. NHL teams don't give raises just for staying in the NHL ,and not a single player either of you mentioned will get big enough raises to make much of a difference let alone eat up a huge chunk of cap space like the $8M you suggest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 I think they are thinking in the same way as you when you mentioned 6 mill for Komi and 4 mill for Koivu. Those 2 are not worth 10 on any roster. They were both huge disappointments and deserve no raise or even equal pay as last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 What makes you think the guys you and Saskhab mentioned are gonna eat up $8M in raises? None of them had break out years and possibly their season was so bad that they are actually worth a paycut. NHL teams don't give raises just for staying in the NHL ,and not a single player either of you mentioned will get big enough raises to make much of a difference let alone eat up a huge chunk of cap space like the $8M you suggest. Well, Plekanec and Higgins had cap hits of 1.6M and 1.7M respectively. I'm 100% sure they won't get pay cuts, no matter how bad their season was. I estimated that together they'll cost 5M.. and they'd probably be worth it. So that's 1.7M total raise. Kosto, D'agostini (makes like 500K right now) and Chipchura will probably get around 1M each. That's about 1M in total raises. So it adds up. Not to 8M though, if we're letting Lang, Schneider, Kovalev, Bouillon, Dandenault and Brisebois go. 21.25M in the top 4 d-men is a little bit dangerous. For me, it adds up to about 48M, which is good. But there is certainly no room for an 8M player. On paper, the team is, if anything, worse than it was last year and we would run into financial trouble the following season (unless Koivu's contract is one year). So meh. It's do-able. Basically, it's just replacing Kovalev with Beauchemin. I don't see where the offence will come from on that team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 What makes you think the guys you and Saskhab mentioned are gonna eat up $8M in raises? None of them had break out years and possibly their season was so bad that they are actually worth a paycut. NHL teams don't give raises just for staying in the NHL ,and not a single player either of you mentioned will get big enough raises to make much of a difference let alone eat up a huge chunk of cap space like the $8M you suggest. Plekanec and Higgins are arbitration eligible, which means their salaries will be getting a significant boost no matter what, be it a one or multi-year deal. The longer the deal, the cheaper the cost in a case like this (take say 3 mil for 1 year, or 2.75 on a 2 or 3-year deal). RFA's never receive paycuts unless they're rejecting their QO for a one-way deal. I think it'll happen with Chipchura, but not with Latendresse, D'Agostini, or even Stewart. Kostopoulos didn't do much to deserve an outlandish raise, but didn't do anything to take a pay cut either. By the way, I'm not saying they'll get 8 million in raises, but their total deals will equal at least 8 mil (last year those deals + Stewart came in just under 7 million). I include Stewart as he has to clear waivers next year and will have a cheap contract - you could do worse for a 13th forward. Combined, those 7 will easily get an extra 2-3 million, so the 8 number is actually understated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Not to tear into you too much (I always like people who put forth the effort) but it seems to me you're missing contracts for the 3 saskhab mentioned as wellas D'Agostini, Chipchura, and Kostopoulos. On the main page of the site, I put up a figure just over 21.7 of committed contracts to next season - adding your 19 makes 40.7 - the 6 guys who need to be re-signed in your scenario will easily eat the 8 million for a big money player. When I sat down about a week ago and did multi-year projections of payroll (I needed to do it in order to answer certain questions that could arise down the road) , the only thing that popped up consistently is that if we give more than a couple UFA's multi-year deals (by that I mean 3+ years), we could be in serious trouble depending on how far the cap goes down based on who expires in the next couple of years. Having seen the results of the projections, I'm in favour of a 1-year retooling process moreso than trying to add a big name guy - short term pain for long term gain. :bow: Smart man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokyohabs Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 No way should Kovalev and Koivu be offered multi-year deals. Wouldn't adding a guy like Boowmeister constitute as a major rebuilding step? Honestly, I can't stop thinking that him, Beauchemin and Markov would be a stupendous top-3. Hamrlik would have to do so much less; Gorges can let some of his over-burdened responsibility go at a lower pairing; room and role models for all our young d coming up. Still need a d coach, something I believe will be sorted by next year. I'd say try to get this set-up this year, and go after UFA forwards next year, when we'll still have cap space, trade-able assets, maturing players. Get a Lang-type ctr, settle the d, allow Carey to have a much better d corps in front of him and help his progression, let marquee players see they will be taken care of from the back end (how gay does that sound). One worry is if we essentially go with the same dmen as last year, Price's confidence could be utterly shot and he might try constantly to over-compensate for their shortcomings. They were not up to the job by any stretch of the imagination! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 No way should Kovalev and Koivu be offered multi-year deals. Wouldn't adding a guy like Boowmeister constitute as a major rebuilding step? Honestly, I can't stop thinking that him, Beauchemin and Markov would be a stupendous top-3. Hamrlik would have to do so much less; Gorges can let some of his over-burdened responsibility go at a lower pairing; room and role models for all our young d coming up. Still need a d coach, something I believe will be sorted by next year. Sure adding J-Bo and Beauchemin would help the D both short and long-term, but then we run into what I call the dreaded TO scenario - too much tied up in D. We all laughed when they hit 20 million in D payroll - add Beauchemin and Bouwmeester to Markov and Hamrlik and there's 20+ right there...let alone Gorges and company filling out the latter spots. Adding in the goalies, we'd have about 30 million to spend on forwards, re-signing the guys we have alone would put us over the cap. As has been discussed earlier, swapping Beauchemin for Komisarek would probably be the best option in terms of making an impact on the top-4 without destroying the team cap-wise - and even then Beauchemin would get more that what Komisarek was paid this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 No way should Kovalev and Koivu be offered multi-year deals. Wouldn't adding a guy like Boowmeister constitute as a major rebuilding step? Honestly, I can't stop thinking that him, Beauchemin and Markov would be a stupendous top-3. Hamrlik would have to do so much less; Gorges can let some of his over-burdened responsibility go at a lower pairing; room and role models for all our young d coming up. Still need a d coach, something I believe will be sorted by next year. I'd say try to get this set-up this year, and go after UFA forwards next year, when we'll still have cap space, trade-able assets, maturing players. Get a Lang-type ctr, settle the d, allow Carey to have a much better d corps in front of him and help his progression, let marquee players see they will be taken care of from the back end (how gay does that sound). One worry is if we essentially go with the same dmen as last year, Price's confidence could be utterly shot and he might try constantly to over-compensate for their shortcomings. They were not up to the job by any stretch of the imagination! You don't need to have a great team to insulate your goaltender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 (edited) Beauchemin at 4m, Jay Bo at 8.5; Marleau in a trade (Plex, A Kost, S Kost, Halak). Coach. Vet goalie backup. D coach. Turning my fantasy NHL in my brain off now. Paying JayBo 8.5 is what you consider a fantasy? That would be my nightmare! He's worth like half that! By paying him like that, you're not only saying he's the best d-man in the league, but that he's one of the best players in the league, period! Please! Edited May 29, 2009 by ForumGhost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokyohabs Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 (edited) That's what I meant by 'fantasy'. I don't want us to pay him all that. Fantasy doesn't necessarily mean nice. But he is a tremendous player, with great upside. He'll get at least 6m I'd think. Doesn't matter what he's actually worth. You're right Wamsley, you don't need a great team to insulate a goaltender. How about a good one then? Edited May 29, 2009 by tokyohabs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 That's what I meant by 'fantasy'. I don't want us to pay him all that. Fantasy doesn't necessarily mean nice. But he is a tremendous player, with great upside. He'll get at least 6m I'd think. Doesn't matter what he's actually worth. You're right Wamsley, you don't need a great team to insulate a goaltender. How about a good one then? I just think it is possible for the Habs to take a step back without exposing Price and Halak. Look what the Leafs accomplished with their AHL roster this season, if they had received average goaltending, they may have snuck into the 8th seed. Success is not predicated on talent. You cannot succeed without a system, and the smart move is to not blow your brains out this off season to appease a frustrated fanbase. Long term vision, not short term thinking. Fingers crossed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokyohabs Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Without upgrading the d-corps, even somewhat, the only way they'll be able to take a step in any direction without exposing our goaltenders is maybe a radical re-think of how the d gameplan is laid out? Is this what you're suggesting? It's semantics at that point, which is at fault, a fundamentally flawed collection of players, or a fundamentally flawed strategy? Anyway, I agree with the patience first philosophy, whatever I may write about wanting us to overspend on Bouwemeister. More fun than anything, none of us are the real GM. Right? Btw, in a no-surprise video clip on RDS, Michel Bergeron goes on at length, agreeing with Guy Lafleur, how the Habs and Koivu are finished and it is time to move on. And Pierre-Marc Bouchard would welcome Koivu anytime on the Wild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 I think you should add talent when you can, especially when it's under 30 years old. Bouwmeester hasn't had his best years yet and hasn't missed any time to injury other than the odd game or two early in his career. We should try and get him. If you don't try and get talent, you won't actually get any at all. The odds of anyone in our system currently developing into Marian Hossa or Jay Bouwmeester are incredibly small. I agree that we need to change our system, but we also need a talent injection onto the team or else we'll eventually come up short. Even if Price becomes what we all want him to be, it'll be hard for him to win without real talents in front of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 I think you should add talent when you can, especially when it's under 30 years old. Bouwmeester hasn't had his best years yet and hasn't missed any time to injury other than the odd game or two early in his career. We should try and get him. If you don't try and get talent, you won't actually get any at all. The odds of anyone in our system currently developing into Marian Hossa or Jay Bouwmeester are incredibly small. I agree that we need to change our system, but we also need a talent injection onto the team or else we'll eventually come up short. Even if Price becomes what we all want him to be, it'll be hard for him to win without real talents in front of him. I agree that we can't develop another Hossa, but I could see Subaan developing into a dominant #1 Defenseman, a la Jaybo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 I think you should add talent when you can, especially when it's under 30 years old. Bouwmeester hasn't had his best years yet and hasn't missed any time to injury other than the odd game or two early in his career. We should try and get him. If you don't try and get talent, you won't actually get any at all. The odds of anyone in our system currently developing into Marian Hossa or Jay Bouwmeester are incredibly small. I agree that we need to change our system, but we also need a talent injection onto the team or else we'll eventually come up short. Even if Price becomes what we all want him to be, it'll be hard for him to win without real talents in front of him. I am not suggesting zero talent injection. I am suggesting wait a year to see how the economy changes the landscape and use that season to implement a strong defensive system. Then next season infuse the team with talent at possibly a cheaper price. If the coach is solid and the players buy the system, then a better season than this year is not out of the realm of possibility. Remember everybody is viewing the disaster that was last season as the basis for the Habs ability. When if 2-3 players make the jump or return to form the Habs position dramatically changes. That is the reason that Gainey's job is difficult and if he believes in his players would be wise to lock up some of the younger players when there value is low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokyohabs Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 (edited) The question then becomes, is a Bouwemeister-type player out there next year, even when teams are possibly trimming their rosters because of the cap? He's got fantastic potential, and we can compliment him with our players now; plus a d coach or better d strategy doesn't count against the almighty cap. Conversely, do you believe (you in general, not specifically targeted at Wamsley) that after next year our d prospects will be matured enough that signing Boowmeister now is a panic move? He might not be all that many think he is, playing in a high-pressure environment night it, night out. Glad I'm not the GM. But I'd take a strong look at him; and for sure I'd go hard after Beauchemin once the bidding for Komi reaches 5-per, which it will. Plus, I think building a rock-solid d corps now, whether Beauchemin, Bouwmeisster or both (assuming we lose Komisarek) will entice forwards to us next year, instead of them coming into a mess of a team with glaring weaknesses everywhere. Anyway, by the time their four-year deals run out, PK 'Bobby Orr' Subban, Alexi 'Scott Stevens' Emelin and Ryan 'Larry Robinson' McDonagh should be ready to run roughshod over the league. Edited May 30, 2009 by tokyohabs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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