Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 I'm not a "trade Subban" guy. What I'm saying is that he is our best trade asset. If we're saying we want to improve Plekanec's line, we have to give something. Trading Subban by himself can improve significantly our team. If we want to IMPROVE our team AND keep Subban, what are other options? I want to hear them. What other trade assets do we have? I'm saying it would hurt the team A LOT more. I would LOVE to have that elite winger AND Subban, don't get me wrong. Just saying I doubt it's realistic. Teams with two 30 goal scorers in their top six - Montreal (Pacioretty, Cole) - Pittsburgh (Malkin, Neal) - New Jersey (Kovalchuk, Parise*, Clarkson) - Anaheim (Perry, Ryan) - Long Island (Moulson, Tavares) - Ottawa (Michalek, Spezza) - San Jose (Couture, Pavelski, Marleau) So we have two 30 goal scorers, which we're in the company of six other teams. How many players in the lineup have the potential to score 20 goals that didn't last season? - Rene Bourque (18 on a bad year) - Tomas Plekanec (17, with five seasons of 20 goals to his name) - Brian Gionta (seven straight 20+ goal seasons before this injury season) - Lars Eller (16 on the third line) - David Desharnais (16 in his first full season in the NHL) Who on the team has the ability to score 10+ goals? - Travis Moen (9 goals last season before injured) - Colby Armstrong (15 and 22 with Atlanta before his injury seasons) - Brandon Prust (13 with New York in 10-11) - P.K. Subban (14 goals in 10-11) - Louis Leblanc (5 goals in 42 games playing bottom six) Who could play for the Canadiens in the next three years with the ability to score at least 10 goals and the potential to score 20+? - Alex Galchenyuk (31 goals as a 16 year old in the OHL) - Brendan Gallagher (40+ goal scorer in the WHL) - Danny Kristo (19 goals for North Dakota) Joke Option - Scott Gomez (Once scored 33 goals) Doom and gloom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoloCup Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Teams with two 30 goal scorers in their top six - Montreal (Pacioretty, Cole)S - Pittsburgh (Malkin, Neal) - New Jersey (Kovalchuk, Parise*, Clarkson) - Anaheim (Perry, Ryan) - Long Island (Moulson, Tavares) - Ottawa (Michalek, Spezza) - San Jose (Couture, Pavelski, Marleau) So we have two 30 goal scorers, which we're in the company of six other teams. How many players in the lineup have the potential to score 20 goals that didn't last season? - Rene Bourque (18 on a bad year) - Tomas Plekanec (17, with five seasons of 20 goals to his name) - Brian Gionta (seven straight 20+ goal seasons before this injury season) - Lars Eller (16 on the third line) - David Desharnais (16 in his first full season in the NHL) Who on the team has the ability to score 10+ goals? - Travis Moen (9 goals last season before injured) - Colby Armstrong (15 and 22 with Atlanta before his injury seasons) - Brandon Prust (13 with New York in 10-11) - P.K. Subban (14 goals in 10-11) - Louis Leblanc (5 goals in 42 games playing bottom six) Who could play for the Canadiens in the next three years with the ability to score at least 10 goals and the potential to score 20+? - Alex Galchenyuk (31 goals as a 16 year old in the OHL) - Brendan Gallagher (40+ goal scorer in the WHL) - Danny Kristo (19 goals for North Dakota) Joke Option - Scott Gomez (Once scored 33 goals) Doom and gloom? Not doom & gloom but no warm & fuzzy that we'll have secondary scoring this year and that was by far our biggest weakness last season. As for the PK thread, I was also a teen when Chelios was dealt and similar to the Gomez & Roy deal loathed it immediately. Chris was already a Norris winner, Subban is just a projection. Yes he logged lots of minutes and we'd be lost without him last couple of years, but that's a statement on our lack of depth, he's maybe in the top 30 in the league at this point and was ahead of Phaneuf in giveaways, had run ins with teammates/coaches, took dumb penalties, and I thought his offensive game regressed but came around in 2nd half. I was in Calgary for Dion's rookie year when everyone proclaimed he was the next one, I even bought a signed rookie pic at auction thinking it would be worth something, can't give it away now, but for a couple of years he was a god in Cowtown. I honestly don't believe Subban will suffer Dions fate and will mature with the proper supporting cast and is an elite talent but yes there's a handful of 30 goal young guys with high ceilings I'd consider dealing him for, E Kane, Bobby Ryan, Eberle, among them but that's about it - we're not getting a superstar but I wouldn't trade him for a prospect or someone on the decline of their career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Giveaways mean nothing. The stat is incredibly biased. The Habs are always in the top in the league in giveaways, but that is because they always have between 40%-100% more giveaways at home vs on the road... so the Bell Centre statisticians love to count giveaways. Funny thing though, how can there be more giveaways in every game at the Bell Centre than there are takeaways? How does that make sense? Also you know who always led the league in giveaways in the 80s? Wayne Gretzky. You have to have the puck on your stick a lot to get a lot of giveaways. So I really don't care if PK had more giveaways than Jay Bouwmeester, seeing as the Habs had 485 Giveaways at home and 290 on the road. I'm sure those numbers are accurate. You can't even look at the numbers because it is so clear that what team you play on has such a huge effect. I also believe a number 1 defenceman is worth far more than a number 1 winger... so I'm not interested in that deal, especially since in Max Pac, I believe we have the number 1 winger spot already filled for years to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 EDIT: Wrong thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbp Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Also on penalties... i believe Subban drew more penalties then he took Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Kaberle and Markov are both over a decade older than Subban. Kaberle is good offensively, I'll give you that... but he needs sheltered defensive minutes. Markov has barely played for 2 years because his knee. And they replace Subban? This might be the single dumbest thing I've read on the internet in at least a year. Trading Subban for Kane is not a dumb idea at all. Trading them one for one given the current defense is where there is issue. If we had Tinordi, Beaulieu, Ellis in this line-up already with Gorges, Emelin all here then yes it's the type of move we can make but given the fact we have a depleted D-core, it is simply not what we need right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Trading Subban for Kane is not a dumb idea at all. Trading them one for one given the current defense is where there is issue. If we had Tinordi, Beaulieu, Ellis in this line-up already with Gorges, Emelin all here then yes it's the type of move we can make but given the fact we have a depleted D-core, it is simply not what we need right now. Fair enough. If we had two or three other defencemen as good as Subban on the roster, then sure, trade him if you have to. Frankly, I do not believe that any of the three you list will approach Subban's extraordinary talent. Beaulieu has a chance, maybe. But by that point Markov will be out of the picture and we'll need both him and PK. In that sense it's a moot hypothetical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 They all have different elements. Tinordi by all accounts will be a shut down beast with limited production. Beaulieu appears to be a pure offensive force but will struggle in his own end and Ellis is a good all around guy just not to Subban's level. By that same token we do not have a forward like Kane. he's basically Pacioretty but with more of a mean streak and a better forechecker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 They all have different elements. Tinordi by all accounts will be a shut down beast with limited production. Beaulieu appears to be a pure offensive force but will struggle in his own end and Ellis is a good all around guy just not to Subban's level. By that same token we do not have a forward like Kane. he's basically Pacioretty but with more of a mean streak and a better forechecker. Right. So PK will remain our best all-around defender by some distance, even by these optimistic projections. Keep him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Right. So PK will remain our best all-around defender by some distance, even by these optimistic projections. Keep him. No way of knowing this for sure. I mean if PK was such a sure fire thing then why did he slip to the 2nd round? We are talking about kids so maybe all of them are busts, who knows. As for PK, he's my fav player in the league so don;t want him dealt. Just saying I can think of examples of when it would be wise to part ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 As for PK, he's my fav player in the league so don;t want him dealt. Just saying I can think of examples of when it would be wise to part ways. No, I get you. And I agree that if we end up with a surplus of elite defencemen, he becomes readily tradeable. He is not some sacred cow, any more than any other player is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 No, I get you. And I agree that if we end up with a surplus of elite defencemen, he becomes readily tradeable. He is not some sacred cow, any more than any other player is. I really don;t like our Dcore right now. And if PK is not part of it then I hate to say it but we are barely above an AHL team. With price in nets I truly think we need to put a solid group of 6-7 guys who excel in their own zone. Not guys like kaberle, Weber and Diaz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 No way of knowing this for sure. I mean if PK was such a sure fire thing then why did he slip to the 2nd round? We are talking about kids so maybe all of them are busts, who knows. As for PK, he's my fav player in the league so don;t want him dealt. Just saying I can think of examples of when it would be wise to part ways. His draft position 5 years ago has little impact compared to what we have seen out of him in the last 5 years. His learning curve has been great. And if you re-did the 2007 draft today, he'd be a top 5 pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs27 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 3 trades totally nhl 2012 kaberle/weber to nashville draft picks those picks and bourque to nj for 1st gomez and 2 firsts to cal bouw sign semin and doan if not doan, grab ak on a cheap deal to fill in?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 3 trades totally nhl 2012 kaberle/weber to nashville draft picks those picks and bourque to nj for 1st gomez and 2 firsts to cal bouw sign semin and doan if not doan, grab ak on a cheap deal to fill in?????? Love NHL12 For me I kept the line-up as is but parted with Weber, kaberle and Gomez. Gomez was sent to minors where he was picked up off waivers. Weber and Kaberle were dealt to Florida in return for Keaton Ellerby. My line-up is: Bourque-Pleks-Gio Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Cole Desharnais-Eller-Armstrong Moen-White-Prust Markov-Gorges Emelin-Subban Bouillon-Ellerby But hey NHL12 right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 His draft position 5 years ago has little impact compared to what we have seen out of him in the last 5 years. His learning curve has been great. And if you re-did the 2007 draft today, he'd be a top 5 pick. it has alot to do with it. 5 years ago PK was not considered 1 of the best 40 players available that year but has developed extremely well to the point where he is our best Dman. So we are assuming he will be better than beaulieu, Ells, Dietz, Thrower, Tinordi. But what if Tinordi continues on his pace and becomes the next coming of Pronger? There is as much a chance of Tinordi or Beaulieu becoming a dominant all-star as there is the chance of them becoming average NHL players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs27 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Love NHL12 For me I kept the line-up as is but parted with Weber, kaberle and Gomez. Gomez was sent to minors where he was picked up off waivers. Weber and Kaberle were dealt to Florida in return for Keaton Ellerby. My line-up is: Bourque-Pleks-Gio Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Cole Desharnais-Eller-Armstrong Moen-White-Prust Markov-Gorges Emelin-Subban Bouillon-Ellerby But hey NHL12 right ya its fun to dream that its that easy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I try not to go with the crazy proposals. I have one season with the standard team and then a couple of seasons with various changes including my dream team. That's the one I go crazy with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazy26 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Love NHL12 For me I kept the line-up as is but parted with Weber, kaberle and Gomez. Gomez was sent to minors where he was picked up off waivers. Weber and Kaberle were dealt to Florida in return for Keaton Ellerby. My line-up is: Bourque-Pleks-Gio Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Cole Desharnais-Eller-Armstrong Moen-White-Prust Markov-Gorges Emelin-Subban Bouillon-Ellerby But hey NHL12 right I'm 4 years into GM mode and my lineup is this: Pacioretty - Plekanec - Hall E. Kane - Benn - Cole B. Schenn - Eller - Hartnell Moen - Desharnais - Prust Markov - Subban Gorges - Karlsson Emelin - E. Gudbranson Price Backstrom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 You guys play it all wrong. It's not about assembling a team of stars but assembling a team with strict rules to force yourself to be creative. Anyone can stack their team with stars. I haven't cared for an NHL game since NHL06 for the Gamecube and I love creating "Team Quebec" where every player has to be from Quebec (the D is crap) or my Las Vegas Millionaires team, where the rule is you have to trade all draft picks by the deadline and no player can be younger than 35. That adds interest to the game because you're forced to be creative. Try it out sometime. Build a team with only players whose last names start with the letter G or only draft players under 5'9". It's way more entertaining than just having a D of Karlsson and Subban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 You guys play it all wrong. It's not about assembling a team of stars but assembling a team with strict rules to force yourself to be creative. Anyone can stack their team with stars. I haven't cared for an NHL game since NHL06 for the Gamecube and I love creating "Team Quebec" where every player has to be from Quebec (the D is crap) or my Las Vegas Millionaires team, where the rule is you have to trade all draft picks by the deadline and no player can be younger than 35. That adds interest to the game because you're forced to be creative. Try it out sometime. Build a team with only players whose last names start with the letter G or only draft players under 5'9". It's way more entertaining than just having a D of Karlsson and Subban. Haven't tried those but have formulatted a team with all colored players in the league. But always have exception for favorites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 it has alot to do with it. 5 years ago PK was not considered 1 of the best 40 players available that year but has developed extremely well to the point where he is our best Dman. So we are assuming he will be better than beaulieu, Ells, Dietz, Thrower, Tinordi. But what if Tinordi continues on his pace and becomes the next coming of Pronger? There is as much a chance of Tinordi or Beaulieu becoming a dominant all-star as there is the chance of them becoming average NHL players. A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. Sure there is a chance they develop like that, but the thing with Subban is that you have the bird in the hand. You already know what his development curve was. Take for example a 2012 2nd round pick.... Dalton Thrower could take off and be the next PK Subban, or he could be the next Mathieu Carle. I'd rather just keep Subban rather than relying on that to happen, and chances are looking at history, you'll get more busts out of 2nd rounders than guys who develop into number 1 dmen. For every Subban, there is 3 or 4 busts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted July 25, 2012 Author Share Posted July 25, 2012 It's not about assembling a team of stars but assembling a team with strict rules to force yourself to be creative. Anyone can stack their team with stars. I haven't cared for an NHL game since NHL06 for the Gamecube and I love creating "Team Quebec" where every player has to be from Quebec (the D is crap) or my Las Vegas Millionaires team, where the rule is you have to trade all draft picks by the deadline and no player can be younger than 35. That adds interest to the game because you're forced to be creative. I played that a few weeks ago interestingly enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbp Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 You guys play it all wrong. It's not about assembling a team of stars but assembling a team with strict rules to force yourself to be creative. Anyone can stack their team with stars. I haven't cared for an NHL game since NHL06 for the Gamecube and I love creating "Team Quebec" where every player has to be from Quebec (the D is crap) or my Las Vegas Millionaires team, where the rule is you have to trade all draft picks by the deadline and no player can be younger than 35. That adds interest to the game because you're forced to be creative. Try it out sometime. Build a team with only players whose last names start with the letter G or only draft players under 5'9". It's way more entertaining than just having a D of Karlsson and Subban. I always go bust on my teams and trade em all for draft picks... then play with a line up that is completely draft picks except a couple old guys you sign to like 12M a year one year deals to reach the cap floor ! Winning with a team of 50-60's... that is talent hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 If I recall correctly Phaneuf was a 1st round pick by Calgary (may have been in top 11), while Weber was picked later (2nd round pick??) by nashville. Who would you rather have today?? No way of knowing this for sure. I mean if PK was such a sure fire thing then why did he slip to the 2nd round? We are talking about kids so maybe all of them are busts, who knows. As for PK, he's my fav player in the league so don;t want him dealt. Just saying I can think of examples of when it would be wise to part ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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