The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I'm not in that category. Subban is a great trade bait. I don't deny he has great value, but to compare him to Hart winners or to put him in the untouchable category is simply wrong. We have to take advantage of his high market value. He is the player that via trade could get us the most return. With the depth we have at D, we can use this great asset and help address more important needs in our roster. Plekanec could use some help on the wings. Trade Subban to get a W, and we suddenly have a crying need for a minutes-eating all-around stud top-2 defenceman. There's no sense in filling holes by creating other, massive holes. Plus, it's easier to find an effective winger than a PK Subban, and stud D are always, in principle, more valuable than stud FW. All told, there is no justification under the sun for trading the best defenceman we've developed since Markov - indeed, Subban is better than Markov was at the same age - unless we get back a serious overpay, a la Stamkos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 This is probably the best thread to ask: Why do some people not want Subban on the Canadiens? Why would you want to trade him? Is the grass always greener on the other side or do you feel he's not a Canadien for life? Do you take to heart the things said about him by Brad Marchand and Mike Richards and Joffrey Lupul or do you just don't like his style? I just don't get why anyone would want to trade him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 The basic reason Marchand, richards, et el, said the things they did about Subban is that he is "an uppity black boy" having greater success then he should. Pang's Freudian slip summed up the general dislike for Subban - he has to learn to play the "white" way. Richards and Marchand are two players in the league who have absolutely no right to talk to anyone about how to play with respect. This is probably the best thread to ask: Why do some people not want Subban on the Canadiens? Why would you want to trade him? Is the grass always greener on the other side or do you feel he's not a Canadien for life? Do you take to heart the things said about him by Brad Marchand and Mike Richards and Joffrey Lupul or do you just don't like his style? I just don't get why anyone would want to trade him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I don't believe everyone hate the kid due to race. That would be sad. I wouldn't be surprised if that's a big part of it (Michael Farber wrote an article saying an "unnamed NHL staff" stated that PK Subban looks like he's playing a whole different sport. Which was a clever way of saying, "If he's going to act like that, he should be tossing basketballs with brothers.") for many people since hockey is the whitest game in North America but I think some might not like Subban for other reasons and I wanted to hear them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoloCup Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I don't move PK unless you're getting a premiere 1st line winger like a Bobby Ryan or Evander Kane in return. There's alot of 'potential' D prospects we have but nobody that can jump in and replace PK right away and I think Therrien will be great to help his maturity. This assumes Subban isn't holding out for a ridiculous long term contract, 4 years@$16MM would be maximum. Bourque is making too much $ to be a 3rd line winger so you have to give him a shot at top 6 and try and move him if that doesn't work. Would rather package Rene, Weber and one of our 3 2nd rounders in 2013 (the Preds & Flames could be very high picks) for a bonafide LW than move Subban but if they can't get a deal done I would also consider maybe a Pleks/PK for E Kane/Bogosian as a good alternative if Galchenyuk is ready to centre one of the top 2 lines. Gallagher & Leblanc should spend the year in Hamilton playing top minutes like Pacs did than 3rd line duty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Would rather package Rene, Weber and one of our 3 2nd rounders in 2013 It's true: Rene/Weber/2nd is the new Ryder deal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoloCup Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Ryder would actually be an improvement over any Montreal winger in 2011-12 not named Cole or Pacs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Ryder would actually be an improvement over any Montreal winger in 2011-12 not named Cole or Pacs I guess you weren't around for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoloCup Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Probably more valuable than what we thought if you look back at that now depending on who the 2nd was, it's not exactly a Kadri/Komisarek/no-name player proposition and with Gauthier in Chicago and Gainey in Dallas there's always the chance to fleece someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoloCup Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Ironic to look at posts on the above demotivational poster and see most proclaiming PK was drafted with that 2nd rounder so maybe we are better off keeping the Bourque/Weber/2nd spare parts trio afterall and see what happens in the 1st half. Pretty confident a new contract with Subban will be announced this week (along with Galchenyuk), that'll put an end to these trade rumors til December anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Trade Subban to get a W, and we suddenly have a crying need for a minutes-eating all-around stud top-2 defenceman. There's no sense in filling holes by creating other, massive holes. Plus, it's easier to find an effective winger than a PK Subban, and stud D are always, in principle, more valuable than stud FW. All told, there is no justification under the sun for trading the best defenceman we've developed since Markov - indeed, Subban is better than Markov was at the same age - unless we get back a serious overpay, a la Stamkos. You have to trade quality to get quality. I'm not saying trade Subban, but I would certianly consider it if the right deal came along. I think the only reason we are talking about him is because his contract isn't resolved. It is pretty obvious that if you trade a top notch for a top notch guy you will leave a bit of a hole from the position you have traded. You only make a trade if the need to strengthen the other area is more overwhelming than what you have currently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 You have to trade quality to get quality. I'm not saying trade Subban, but I would certianly consider it if the right deal came along. I think the only reason we are talking about him is because his contract isn't resolved. It is pretty obvious that if you trade a top notch for a top notch guy you will leave a bit of a hole from the position you have traded. You only make a trade if the need to strengthen the other area is more overwhelming than what you have currently. Nobody is saying that Subban should never, ever be traded for anybody. We all agree that we'd trade him for a franchise player. But that amounts to saying we wouldn't trade him, since no one is going to offer Stamkos or Crsoby for Subban. I'm really not sure what is gained by saying 'we should trade him if the right deal comes along.' What's the right deal? Rick frigging Nash? We have holes, but no 'overwhelming' need in our roster that would justify the radical move of destroying our defence corps by trading PK Subban. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankhab Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Nobody is saying that Subban should never, ever be traded for anybody. We all agree that we'd trade him for a franchise player. But that amounts to saying we wouldn't trade him, since no one is going to offer Stamkos or Crsoby for Subban. I'm really not sure what is gained by saying 'we should trade him if the right deal comes along.' What's the right deal? Rick frigging Nash? We have holes, but no 'overwhelming' need in our roster that would justify the radical move of destroying our defence corps by trading PK Subban. I've said it before, trading Subban for instant help is a very Maple-Leafy thing to even consider. I'm content to let our young core develop, as long as new Management handles things better than the previous group, who got rid of players like Ribero, S.Kostitsyn, and Grabosvski, and McDonough for little or no return in each case. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Probably more valuable than what we thought if you look back at that now depending on who the 2nd was, it's not exactly a Kadri/Komisarek/no-name player proposition and with Gauthier in Chicago and Gainey in Dallas there's always the chance to fleece someone. Yes, teams are trying to get fleeced and the advisors or pro scouts have power to make trades now. Please go back to proposing this on EA Sports, its the only place it has a chance of success. Ironic to look at posts on the above demotivational poster and see most proclaiming PK was drafted with that 2nd rounder so maybe we are better off keeping the Bourque/Weber/2nd spare parts trio afterall and see what happens in the 1st half. Pretty confident a new contract with Subban will be announced this week (along with Galchenyuk), that'll put an end to these trade rumors til December anyways. Just because you hit one PK Subban in the second round, does not make all second rounders as valuable as PK Subban. Its like a 5% chance or less of getting this quality of player. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I think trading Subban is preposterous. We would have to receive a franchise player in return, and that would never happen. I think with Larry "the prick" Carriere gone, we'll see a return to offensive form for him, hopefully JJ Dangieult takes things easy on him, and allows him to show some of his natural talents. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I think trading Subban is preposterous. We would have to receive a franchise player in return, and that would never happen. I think with Larry "the prick" Carriere gone, we'll see a return to offensive form for him, hopefully JJ Dangieult takes things easy on him, and allows him to show some of his natural talents. A return to offensive form? Subban had 36 points, same as Drew Doughty for a tie in 26th in D-scoring in the league. It's only two points less than his rookie season. His goal scoring went down as well as his shooting percentage but his defensive play was excellent all year. This myth that Subban had a bad offensive year needs to end. I know he didn't do Erik Karlsson numbers like everyone hoped but he had a very strong season. Subban likely won't have too many seasons where he'll score more than 15 goals, he's all about the playmaking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Larry Carriere is still with the team as assistant GM Also when he was assistant coach, he worked with the forwards, and it was Randy Ladoucer who worked with the D and who PK was often seen speaking to on the bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Larry Carriere is still with the team as assistant GM Also when he was assistant coach, he worked with the forwards, and it was Randy Ladoucer who worked with the D and who PK was often seen speaking to on the bench. And Ladoucer did very well with Subban, i was sorry to see him fired. I thought PK at end of year was much better defensively and making better decisions than under Pinhead. For playing 24+minutes and having a +9 on a shit team he did very well and will only get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoloCup Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Yes, teams are trying to get fleeced and the advisors or pro scouts have power to make trades now. Please go back to proposing this on EA Sports, its the only place it has a chance of success. Just because you hit one PK Subban in the second round, does not make all second rounders as valuable as PK Subban. Its like a 5% chance or less of getting this quality of player. Yes as far fetched as Bourque/Prospect/2nd for Cammy - give your head a shake if you think this only happens on EA Sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Yes as far fetched as Bourque/Prospect/2nd for Cammy - give your head a shake if you think this only happens on EA Sports. So all you have to do is get the player you want to target to suck for 3 months and to call his teammates and coaches a bunch of losers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoloCup Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 So all you have to do is get the player you want to target to suck for 3 months and to call his teammates and coaches a bunch of losers? Cammy wasn't alone in the 3 months of sucking and he said what the rest of us were thinking. Did he break the hockey players code of cliche responses? Absolutely. Did he shine a light on the fact the Habs were a mess and going nowhere and help facilitate change? Absolutely. I'm not gunna slag a player who was Montreal's best forward for the last 2 playoffs cause he was frustrated and spoke his mind, would be nice to see someone like Gomez care that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbp Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Cammy wasn't alone in the 3 months of sucking and he said what the rest of us were thinking. Did he break the hockey players code of cliche responses? Absolutely. Did he shine a light on the fact the Habs were a mess and going nowhere and help facilitate change? Absolutely. I'm not gunna slag a player who was Montreal's best forward for the last 2 playoffs cause he was frustrated and spoke his mind, would be nice to see someone like Gomez care that much. It wasn't an attack on Cammy as much as explaining how and why he was available. Yes in hind sight knowing who the pick was its a great trade package... but no one knows who is being drafted before the draft or exactly their skill level. Also looking at Bourque at the time of the trade had three 27 goal seasons... his personality got him pushed out of Calgary. We didn't trade for the player we got. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoloCup Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 It wasn't an attack on Cammy as much as explaining how and why he was available. Yes in hind sight knowing who the pick was its a great trade package... but no one knows who is being drafted before the draft or exactly their skill level. Also looking at Bourque at the time of the trade had three 27 goal seasons... his personality got him pushed out of Calgary. We didn't trade for the player we got. Fair enough, just see a lot of sites where Mikey is slammed for calling the team out when if it was Messier it would be another chapter in the 'greatest sports leader ever' book. I watched Bourque a lot in Calgary and he was great when he 1st came in and then just became a floater, had hoped he'd bounce back but alas not - this past season anyways. Looked like me back checking in beer league, couple of strides a glide followed by a stick waive and 'Go Goalie' followed usually by another minus. Hopefully Therrien can light a fire under him and that solves our Top 6 but probably more hope of Gomez finding his game first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankhab Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I don't move PK unless you're getting a premiere 1st line winger like a Bobby Ryan or Evander Kane in return. There's alot of 'potential' D prospects we have but nobody that can jump in and replace PK right away and I think Therrien will be great to help his maturity. This assumes Subban isn't holding out for a ridiculous long term contract, 4 years@$16MM would be maximum. Bourque is making too much $ to be a 3rd line winger so you have to give him a shot at top 6 and try and move him if that doesn't work. Would rather package Rene, Weber and one of our 3 2nd rounders in 2013 (the Preds & Flames could be very high picks) for a bonafide LW than move Subban but if they can't get a deal done I would also consider maybe a Pleks/PK for E Kane/Bogosian as a good alternative if Galchenyuk is ready to centre one of the top 2 lines. Gallagher & Leblanc should spend the year in Hamilton playing top minutes like Pacs did than 3rd line duty. There's no way I'd trade PK for either of those players. Not a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoloCup Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 There's no way I'd trade PK for either of those players. Not a chance. Yeah dunno, I'm sure Ducks & Jets fans would say the same about their guys for PK, we're dreaming if anyone thinks we'd get Stamkos or Tavares and we dont need Patrick Kane in a city like Montreal, he'd be eaten alive before the New Year. Howson apparently wants Del Zotto, Dubinsky & Kreider for Nash, by that logic Subban for a younger, cheaper version of Nash would look like a steal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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