Habs Flames Nov 2

[Chris]

Moen and everyone's favorite whipping boy Bourque will not fix things. Moen plays good defense, kills penalties and hits people. That's what 4th liners do. Bourque isn't lighting it up obviously, but atleast he hits people.

It's the likes of Pacs, DD, PAP, Pleks, the Gally's who are getting the most ice time and not producing.

Subban has been awfull, Gilbert is leading the league in turnovers, Tinordi and Beaulieu still make rookie mistakes,

They team generally speaking is soft, have a poor work ethic, don't win many battles, don't protect the front of the net of crash the net. With the exception of the 2 youngest players the Gally's.

[DON]

Screw it then, sounds like might as well toss in towel and tank for McDavid!

We will get em next year!

Just need pick up all-star sniper or three, 2 big centres, new Mgmt/coaches, top 4 d-man and grittier bottom six.

And trade Plekanec, Gilbert, Bourque, DD, Eller, Emelin.

should bout do it and then all the continuing complaining may relent then? :cry_smile:

[Machine of Loving Grace]

but atleast he hits people.

This is turning into the most pathetic compliment you can give to a player.

"Yeah, that Dog Murray was a terrible hockey player, but at least he could throw a hit!"

What's next? "Bourque does absolutely nothing on the ice, but at least he wakes up in the morning."

[Lovett's Magnatones]

"something aint right here"

teams with similar records to the habs

Pens + 19 goal differential

Tbay + 10

Wild + 17

Ducks + 13

Habs - 4

a minus four. tells me that the habs winning record is based on a whole lotta puck luck.

Or they've lost in spectacular fashion. Make that 7-1 3-1 and 6-2 3-2 and they're a +3.

Goal differential after 10-20 games doesn't mean anything.

[KoRP]

To a man they were outplayed in every loss, and most of the wins....

What is the answer other than the players?

On top six, you have to win battles and create scoring chances, 3rd and 4th lines need to bring energy and grit and I've seen nothing from any of them except being a step behind...

Wreaks of bad coaching and bad work ethic, period.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Dan Lacroix needs to do something to save his job.

Right now there's three dozen unemployed coaches out there right now calling Bergevin and telling him how they could fix our PP without supplanting Michel Therrien as head coach, though if they do ever need a new head coach they would totally be for the job.

Sharks swimming in the water telling Bergevin not to look at the Rangers PP without Lacroix being terrible as well.

Guy Boucher must be sending texts from Switzerland. "1-3-1 ;)"

[Habs30/31]

Moen and everyone's favorite whipping boy Bourque will not fix things. Moen plays good defense, kills penalties and hits people. That's what 4th liners do. Bourque isn't lighting it up obviously, but atleast he hits people.

It's the likes of Pacs, DD, PAP, Pleks, the Gally's who are getting the most ice time and not producing.

Subban has been awfull, Gilbert is leading the league in turnovers, Tinordi and Beaulieu still make rookie mistakes,

They team generally speaking is soft, have a poor work ethic, don't win many battles, don't protect the front of the net of crash the net. With the exception of the 2 youngest players the Gally's.

sums it up very nicely

Or they've lost in spectacular fashion. Make that 7-1 3-1 and 6-2 3-2 and they're a +3.

Goal differential after 10-20 games doesn't mean anything.

niether does starting the season 7-1 apparently

[Habs30/31]

To a man they were outplayed in every loss, and most of the wins....

What is the answer other than the players?

On top six, you have to win battles and create scoring chances, 3rd and 4th lines need to bring energy and grit and I've seen nothing from any of them except being a step behind...

Wreaks of bad coaching and bad work ethic, period.

yes it does. big time

This is turning into the most pathetic compliment you can give to a player.

"Yeah, that Dog Murray was a terrible hockey player, but at least he could throw a hit!"

What's next? "Bourque does absolutely nothing on the ice, but at least he wakes up in the morning."

LMAO !

[Habs30/31]

Screw it then, sounds like might as well toss in towel and tank for McDavid!

We will get em next year!

Just need pick up all-star sniper or three, 2 big centres, new Mgmt/coaches, top 4 d-man and grittier bottom six.

And trade Plekanec, Gilbert, Bourque, DD, Eller, Emelin.

should bout do it and then all the continuing complaining may relent then? :cry_smile:

LOL. or according to my buddy in calgary who is a die hard flames fan..................."give us subban, markov, price and pacs and we win the cup for canada. he was at game in calgary 5th row.......his take on the habs "way to many floaters". i said dont ya like galagher? he says yes but we have several galaghers.

ya know what else calgary has ............ great coaching.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

The reason I spoke about cautious optimism during the wins was an article last year on Grantland about the Maple Leafs:

So the advanced stats are virtually unanimous about the Toronto Maple Leafs. They’re a bad team, one that gets consistently outplayed and relies on luck to remain competitive. If last season hadn’t been shortened by a lockout, some argue, the Leafs probably wouldn’t have even made the playoffs. (The 5-seed in the East, the Leafs lost to the Boston Bruins in seven games in the first round.) This year, they should finish near the bottom of the standings.

It’s a convincing case, almost airtight, except for one thing: The standings say that the Maple Leafs aren’t a bad team. They were a top-10 overall team last year. And this season, they’ve won three of their first four games. It’s early, sure, but today the Leafs are tied for first overall.

The numbers say the Leafs can’t win, but the scoreboard keeps saying otherwise.

While the issue in Montreal isn't some ignorant defiance against advanced statistics, the real takeaway for me was Leaf fans ignorant about how their team won and just that it did. As happy as I was that the Habs were winning, I wanted to see more fire. We just seem to be getting colder and colder, aside from Carey Price.

That said, even when we were winning I was pretty clear we weren't playing at 100% yet. Our best games were against Colorado and New York. Even that felt like the Habs were still finding their game. This team is as good as their record but they haven't played as well as the scores have shown. It's particularly disappointing that once again, Price is kept in for six goals instead of pulled at four. It's stuff like this that keeps him out of Vezina discussions. His play has been the best in the league but he's never gonna get the due credit when Therrien never pulls him for Tokarski until the game is beyond reach.

Anyway, I think the forwards need to sit down and analyze how they play. There's too much cockiness on the PP. There's too much entering zones and feeding nobody. Players are either trigger happy (Past three games I've seen Pacioretty take big shots that missed the net and corralled all the way around the boards and back into our zone, effectively killing our zone control dead) or trigger shy (Galchenyuk has it in his head he's an elite playmaker that needs to make pretty passes instead of getting to the net).

I yap a lot about Bourque but that's because he's the biggest poster for why the Habs are not playing well. Everything about Bourque is luck. Lucky breaks. Lucky shifts. Lucky shots. He gets the puck, he skates into the opposing zone and it's always in a spot where he's well defended with no chance at a good shot. Instead of dishing back where there's almost always someone trailing, Bourque goes for the shot and hopes for the best. When he rushes to the net his stick is never near the puck. When he hits a guy it's almost always out of position or on a guy who should have instead been pressured by positioning instead of rushed at for a check. There's a good player in there somewhere with Rene Bourque but instead he just does the right things terribly wrong. And right now, our top nine reflects the same. The right things done wrong.

Montreal is a contender in the east that forgot how to dominate. It's something that can be remembered. I'm sick of hearing about "bad luck" or "bad refereeing". There's no excuse for the lack of first goals. It's time to stop being the 100th anniversary Habs and remember what hard work means. Stop being cute. Start working. People complain about Therrien making this a "grind" team but there's a purpose to that. When they grind, they remember what hard work is about. Once they remember what hard work is about, they find their legs and know how to score with hard work. Right now they are not playing with hard work. They are playing with bad work.

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

ya see i think thats mt and some kool aid drinking fans actually see it that way.

"the offensive terror the habs were on the first few games"

reality however, ithey scored 9 goals in the first FOUR games. "offensive terror" ?

23* goals in our first 7 games. That's 3-1/3 goals a game. Yes, in this league, that's "Offensive Terror."

5* goals in our last 4 games. That's under 1-1/4 goals a game. And that's really bad.

* - these don't include the shootout goals, which officially DO count toward goal differential.

[Habs30/31]

23* goals in our first 7 games. That's 3-1/3 goals a game. Yes, in this league, that's "Offensive Terror."

5* goals in our last 4 games. That's under 1-1/4 goals a game. And that's really bad.

* - these don't include the shootout goals, which officially DO count toward goal differential.

did not know the first few games meant 7 games .... gotcha

tell me you are not counting shoot out goals in this scoring terror the habs are/were on. ( ;

[Helmethead]

The reason I spoke about cautious optimism during the wins was an article last year on Grantland about the Maple Leafs:

While the issue in Montreal isn't some ignorant defiance against advanced statistics, the real takeaway for me was Leaf fans ignorant about how their team won and just that it did. As happy as I was that the Habs were winning, I wanted to see more fire. We just seem to be getting colder and colder, aside from Carey Price.

That said, even when we were winning I was pretty clear we weren't playing at 100% yet. Our best games were against Colorado and New York. Even that felt like the Habs were still finding their game. This team is as good as their record but they haven't played as well as the scores have shown. It's particularly disappointing that once again, Price is kept in for six goals instead of pulled at four. It's stuff like this that keeps him out of Vezina discussions. His play has been the best in the league but he's never gonna get the due credit when Therrien never pulls him for Tokarski until the game is beyond reach.

Anyway, I think the forwards need to sit down and analyze how they play. There's too much cockiness on the PP. There's too much entering zones and feeding nobody. Players are either trigger happy (Past three games I've seen Pacioretty take big shots that missed the net and corralled all the way around the boards and back into our zone, effectively killing our zone control dead) or trigger shy (Galchenyuk has it in his head he's an elite playmaker that needs to make pretty passes instead of getting to the net).

I yap a lot about Bourque but that's because he's the biggest poster for why the Habs are not playing well. Everything about Bourque is luck. Lucky breaks. Lucky shifts. Lucky shots. He gets the puck, he skates into the opposing zone and it's always in a spot where he's well defended with no chance at a good shot. Instead of dishing back where there's almost always someone trailing, Bourque goes for the shot and hopes for the best. When he rushes to the net his stick is never near the puck. When he hits a guy it's almost always out of position or on a guy who should have instead been pressured by positioning instead of rushed at for a check. There's a good player in there somewhere with Rene Bourque but instead he just does the right things terribly wrong. And right now, our top nine reflects the same. The right things done wrong.

Montreal is a contender in the east that forgot how to dominate. It's something that can be remembered. I'm sick of hearing about "bad luck" or "bad refereeing". There's no excuse for the lack of first goals. It's time to stop being the 100th anniversary Habs and remember what hard work means. Stop being cute. Start working. People complain about Therrien making this a "grind" team but there's a purpose to that. When they grind, they remember what hard work is about. Once they remember what hard work is about, they find their legs and know how to score with hard work. Right now they are not playing with hard work. They are playing with bad work.

I honestly couldn't have said it better myself.

Anyone who has played sports on a competitive level (and has been successful) can understand this.

[Guest Stogey24]

Does anyone else get the feeling P.A might be too slow for Montreal's style of play. He's so much more of a possession guy... I donno, I just keep noticing P.A behind the play

[Habs30/31]

The reason I spoke about cautious optimism during the wins was an article last year on Grantland about the Maple Leafs:

While the issue in Montreal isn't some ignorant defiance against advanced statistics, the real takeaway for me was Leaf fans ignorant about how their team won and just that it did. As happy as I was that the Habs were winning, I wanted to see more fire. We just seem to be getting colder and colder, aside from Carey Price.

That said, even when we were winning I was pretty clear we weren't playing at 100% yet. Our best games were against Colorado and New York. Even that felt like the Habs were still finding their game. This team is as good as their record but they haven't played as well as the scores have shown. It's particularly disappointing that once again, Price is kept in for six goals instead of pulled at four. It's stuff like this that keeps him out of Vezina discussions. His play has been the best in the league but he's never gonna get the due credit when Therrien never pulls him for Tokarski until the game is beyond reach.

Anyway, I think the forwards need to sit down and analyze how they play. There's too much cockiness on the PP. There's too much entering zones and feeding nobody. Players are either trigger happy (Past three games I've seen Pacioretty take big shots that missed the net and corralled all the way around the boards and back into our zone, effectively killing our zone control dead) or trigger shy (Galchenyuk has it in his head he's an elite playmaker that needs to make pretty passes instead of getting to the net).

I yap a lot about Bourque but that's because he's the biggest poster for why the Habs are not playing well. Everything about Bourque is luck. Lucky breaks. Lucky shifts. Lucky shots. He gets the puck, he skates into the opposing zone and it's always in a spot where he's well defended with no chance at a good shot. Instead of dishing back where there's almost always someone trailing, Bourque goes for the shot and hopes for the best. When he rushes to the net his stick is never near the puck. When he hits a guy it's almost always out of position or on a guy who should have instead been pressured by positioning instead of rushed at for a check. There's a good player in there somewhere with Rene Bourque but instead he just does the right things terribly wrong. And right now, our top nine reflects the same. The right things done wrong.

Montreal is a contender in the east that forgot how to dominate. It's something that can be remembered. I'm sick of hearing about "bad luck" or "bad refereeing". There's no excuse for the lack of first goals. It's time to stop being the 100th anniversary Habs and remember what hard work means. Stop being cute. Start working. People complain about Therrien making this a "grind" team but there's a purpose to that. When they grind, they remember what hard work is about. Once they remember what hard work is about, they find their legs and know how to score with hard work. Right now they are not playing with hard work. They are playing with bad work.

agree with alot of what you said. However no free ride for Therrien............He gets loads of credit when they win............and has a ton of excuses when they lose.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

I'm not excusing Therrien, or what we should be saying, I'm not excusing Montreal coaching. Therrien isn't the only coach making decisions. If you want to go 100% on credit/blame with Therrien then Carey Price is only at the top of his game because of Therrien. See how that works?

There is always a team responsibility and where Therrien is failing is making a loud enough impact on the players to change their bad habits. Having confidence in guys playing poorly like Eller and Bourque have brought zero results. It's time for the team to be disciplined properly and for the coaching staff to ask themselves what needs to be changed and what needs to keep happening.

[Habs30/31]

Does anyone else get the feeling P.A might be too slow for Montreal's style of play. He's so much more of a possession guy... I donno, I just keep noticing P.A behind the play

yes i noticed that, bu i also thing montreal being a team of speed is a tad over stated. Some players that come to mind that are not particularly fast. PAP, Markov, Weaver, Tinordi, Moen, Prust, Eller, Emelin, Gilbert, Manny.....thats 10 out of 18 regs. Flames showed the habs what a team built for speed can do. So PAP would not fit the flames style of play.....but the habs. so so

[Habs30/31]

I'm not excusing Therrien, or what we should be saying, I'm not excusing Montreal coaching. Therrien isn't the only coach making decisions. If you want to go 100% on credit/blame with Therrien then Carey Price is only at the top of his game because of Therrien. See how that works?

There is always a team responsibility and where Therrien is failing is making a loud enough impact on the players to change their bad habits. Having confidence in guys playing poorly like Eller and Bourque have brought zero results. It's time for the team to be disciplined properly and for the coaching staff to ask themselves what needs to be changed and what needs to keep happening.

yes indeed ..."coaching staff needs to ask themselves what needs to be changed" Thats my point. Watching therrien for year i dont even want him making those decisions/changes.

Changes like dropping sekac, never playing bounival, playing the two rookie dman with the 5th dman all the time, leaving price in for after the game was toast, moen in the line up, never playing chucky at center, having two smallest forwards on the team on the top line, putting vanek with gionta and plelks untill the entire city screamed put him with pacs and dd. I could go on, so no asking/(trusting) the coaching staff what needs to be changed and what needs to keep happening" I dont see these coaches getting any farther than they have with this bunch.

If price ever went down for season.......therriens habs would drop like stone in water

[dlbalr]

If price ever went down for season.......therriens habs would drop like stone in water

Couldn't that be said about a lot of teams though?

'If ____ (franchise goalie) went down for the season, ____ (team) would struggle badly.'

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

"something aint right here"

teams with similar records to the habs

Pens + 19 goal differential

Tbay + 10

Wild + 17

Ducks + 13

Habs - 4

a minus four. tells me that the habs winning record is based on a whole lotta puck luck.

or 2 blowouts to tb and calgary

[DON]

Depending on point of view; if are a Habfan or simply a critic, what story those cherry picked stats can tell.

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

no matter how you look at it... this team stopped scoring goals and began to slump simaulaneously when sekac came out... even so moen playing well (or not)... sekac needs to draw back in... i don't get it.... he scores that memorable goal in front of his family then gets the yank!

patch DD sekac

galchenyuk eller gallagher

bourque plex weise

prust malholtra bournival

I'm sorry but bournival brings way to much speed on the forecheck alone to be ignored any longer... he also kills penalties!

[Toronthab]

Just thinkin of that game against Bawston....

[Habs30/31]

Couldn't that be said about a lot of teams though?

'If ____ (franchise goalie) went down for the season, ____ (team) would struggle badly.'

yes but most would drop as far as habs.

he is by far the best player on the team. that is not so with the kings, ducks, hawks, blues, sharks, bruins, pens, caps, flames, oilers, nucks, sens, jets, wings, leafs, lightning, stars, panthers, sabres, flyers, islanders, j, preds, wild, ..................... you get my point i'm sure

[DON]

Why one player or another isn't in lineup, might not be as simple as most fans assume.

You know; Dudley-Mellanby-LaPointe-Bergevin-Lacarriere-le Genius see these guys day in and out, in the gym, at practice all the time and likely have a bit better idea who might be best to play.

And I highly doubt they play Moan instead of Sekac/Bournival if they think a youngster would make a difference.

The only thing I wonder is why not send one or both to AHL and call up a Dumont (or the like) to sit in pressbox till injury, or someone craps the bed, or Sekac-Bournival light-up AHL and help fill the net there?