GDT Oct. 15 - Habs vs Senators, 7 PM

[Commandant]

1 hour ago, sbhatt said:

Do you remember many Sens D-men getting pasted when going back to retrieve the puck?  I don't...and that's the problem.  Our 4th line players do a lot of things well...but it's what they don't do that has me concerned.  Don't get me wrong, our soft as mush captain didn't exactly roar into anyone on the forecheck either (big surprise), nor did others, but it's usually the 4th line that features a wrecking ball element.

 

Last year's Stanley Cup Champions indicate that this element isn't really necessary to win.

 

Same with the 2015 Cup Champions.

 

I'd rather have a line that can play solid defence and outscore their opponents from time to time, than worry about plastering defencemen. 

[illWill]

3 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Last year's Stanley Cup Champions indicate that this element isn't really necessary to win.

 

Same with the 2015 Cup Champions.

 

I'd rather have a line that can play solid defence and outscore their opponents from time to time, than worry about plastering defencemen. 

 

I agree with the last sentence that the job of the 4th line is to primarily prevent the other team from scoring, and secondarily to not be a liability out there. But I hate using Stanley Cup champions as a model as how to win. Any given year there are about 10 teams with different styles that realistically have a shot at going all the way. Too many variables like matchups, health, hot steaks, variance, etc to say precisely how a team should be built. 

[Commandant]

Just now, illWill said:

 

I agree with the last sentence that the job of the 4th line is to primarily prevent the other team from scoring, and secondarily to not be a liability out there. But I hate using Stanley Cup champions as a model as how to win. Any given year there are about 10 teams with different styles that realistically have a shot at going all the way. Too many variables like matchups, health, hot steaks, variance, etc to say precisely how a team should be built. 

 

I'm not saying that you have to copy them.

 

I'm saying that the idea that our fourth line must be a bunch of monsters forechecking the other team through the boards in order to win is just false. Plenty of teams win with a model that doesn't include that. 

[illWill]

2 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

I'm not saying that you have to copy them.

 

I'm saying that the idea that our fourth line must be a bunch of monsters forechecking the other team through the boards in order to win is just false. Plenty of teams win with a model that doesn't include that. 

 

And I'm saying there are teams with monsters forechecking that can and have won. Teams can win multiple ways. The common denominator is that their 4th line is better than the other team's 4th line, no  matter how they get it done

[Commandant]

3 minutes ago, illWill said:

 

And I'm saying there are teams with monsters forechecking that can and have won. Teams can win multiple ways. The common denominator is that their 4th line is better than the other team's 4th line, no  matter how they get it done

 

Sure, but the complaint in this thread is that despite the fact our fourth line is a +2 in two games, that it hasn't been good enough cause they don't forecheck.  I'm saying given the performance in two games that's a B.S. complaint right now. 

[illWill]

Just now, Commandant said:

 

Sure, but the complaint in this thread is that despite the fact our fourth line is a +2 in two games, that it hasn't been good enough cause they don't forecheck.  I'm saying given the performance in two games that's a B.S. complaint right now. 

 

We agree and I'm not sure what your point is 

[DON]

4 hours ago, Scott462 said:

 

Lol we have one in Petry.

 

Glad he's back

Got three actually.

[DON]

3 hours ago, sbhatt said:

  Don't get me wrong, our soft as mush captain didn't exactly roar into anyone on the forecheck either (big surprise),

Pacioretty actually did throw several good hits and led the forwards with 4. Which game were you watching?

[KoRP]

5 hours ago, DON said:

Pacioretty actually did throw several good hits and led the forwards with 4. Which game were you watching?

I was watching the game where Pacioretty didn't look like a guy that wanted to play a game of hockey, didn't look like a guy who had any foot speed, playmaking ability, or even the ability to get a scoring chance... WTF happened to this guy? He's been mud for a year...and Galchenyuk was worse.

[BCHabnut]

8 hours ago, illWill said:

You would think that an NHL player could at least get a shot off on in shootout. At least miss the net, shoot it at his chest....anything but whatever that was. 

 

Note: The only part of the game I was able to see was the end of OT and the shootout. And I noticed DD out there in OT as well. I can see him becoming my whipping boy this year real quick 

DD on the shootout makes sense. He is very good at shootouts. In OT, I agree with it too. He can be tricky with the puck. You can't keep switching the same 6 guys out for 5 minutes.

[kuternoga]

That Desharnais' shootout attempt gave me cancer. /s

[DON]

2 hours ago, KoRP said:

I was watching the game where Pacioretty didn't look like a guy that wanted to play a game of hockey, didn't look like a guy who had any foot speed, playmaking ability, or even the ability to get a scoring chance... WTF happened to this guy? He's been mud for a year...and Galchenyuk was worse.

Mud? Pacioretty did manage 30g, which in todays game don't think would classify as mud would you? Agree Galchenyuk is starting year very slow and got a beat down on the faceoffs, winning only 13% of them.

Great to see Lehkonen get his 1st goal, too bad he got sent to the 4th line and played limited minutes.

Montoya has played very well, seemed like a statue in the shootout and just closed his eyes and hoped the shots hit him or missed the net.

Radulov is no Semin that is for sure.

Markov I hope is just having a slow starter to the season (some older d-men it does take awhile) and he took couple big hits, which the old timer is likely feeling today.

Almost 30 minutes for Weber, solid but seemed hit/miss moving the puck. His partner seemed invisible, which I guess is both good and not so much.

Petry was impressive and pleased he is back and played very well for his 1st game of year.

 

Desharnais's shootout attempt was quite something and felt bad for the little guy.

 

What will be the forward line combinations look like next game and Sergachev likely replace Pateryn I suppose.

 

Friggin Tom Pyatt puts puck in top corner, who would of guessed that?

[sbhatt]

9 hours ago, DON said:

Pacioretty actually did throw several good hits and led the forwards with 4. Which game were you watching?

 

The guy doesn't 'hit'...he occasionally brushes up against opposing players enough to get credited with the statistic from time to time.  There's no intensity in his game at all.  To quote Boone:  "Max Pacioretty has started the season in a coma".

 

And while I concede that teams can win without a physical forechecking element, those teams also have a more offense-forward system than MT's yawner of a system...completely different games.  Maybe I've just been spoiled watching stretches of the Hawks-Preds games the past two nights, and my expectations where intensity is concerned in a hockey game have been skewed.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

33 minutes ago, sbhatt said:

 

The guy doesn't 'hit'...he occasionally brushes up against opposing players enough to get credited with the statistic from time to time.  There's no intensity in his game at all.  To quote Boone:  "Max Pacioretty has started the season in a coma".

 

And while I concede that teams can win without a physical forechecking element, those teams also have a more offense-forward system than MT's yawner of a system...completely different games.  Maybe I've just been spoiled watching stretches of the Hawks-Preds games the past two nights, and my expectations where intensity is concerned in a hockey game have been skewed.

 

I think we can all agree that another season of watching the Habs fail to take the game to the opposition will make us all puke. The disagreement would centre on what this means. I tend to side with Commandant that framing the issue as one of hitting everything that moves (really hitting, not just the little bumps that the Paciorettys of the world dole out) is unhelpful. In fact, there seems to be little intrinsic correlation between outhitting opponents and winning hockey games. It's the passivity, the listlessness, the lack of dynamic team play in games like last night's that demoralizes us all.

 

There was a time when the Habs seemed to play a more up-tempo system defined by excellent support for the puck-carrier and lots of quick, efficient passing. This was the team whose 'transition game' was widely feared. That was also the team that went to the semi-finals in '14. Ever since then, this element of the Habs' game has been receding. I don't know why; presumably Therrien wants something else. It's that earlier approach to 'taking the game to the opposition' that I've always assumed would define any Cup run by this generation of Canadiens...but I'm not sure if the current roster configuration is built for it. That 'transition game' model was effectively predicted on either Markov or Subban as high-end puck-moving D-men who could overwhelm the opposition coming through the neutral zone. We no longer have this kind of d-corps, so maybe some other strategy is indeed what's called for. The danger is getting caught in a nether region, neither big and strong enough to be Boston 2011, nor quick and fast enough to be Chicago.

 

Regardless, nothing calls for the lacklustre non-competitiveness on display for two periods last night.

[habs rule]

They need a kick in the pants, that's for sure. As to hitting when a guy throws a big check and knocks some guy on his a$$ it tends to wake the team up and get them going. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a strong hard hitting game. It tends to make  the other team listen for foot steps and make mistakes. The great pumpkin knows it has been done to us a lot of times. Maybe all this leadership they now have since the traded the black guy away could step up and get this team going.

[Guest Stogey24]

Missed the game. Sound like it was a good thing...

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

28 minutes ago, habs rule said:

They need a kick in the pants, that's for sure. As to hitting when a guy throws a big check and knocks some guy on his a$$ it tends to wake the team up and get them going. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a strong hard hitting game. It tends to make  the other team listen for foot steps and make mistakes. The great pumpkin knows it has been done to us a lot of times. Maybe all this leadership they now have since the traded the black guy away could step up and get this team going.

 

I'll ignore the last (fraught) bit and agree that there is nothing wrong with aggressive physicality. The point is just that there are other ways to 'take the game' to opponents, and that the team over the past half-decade has been built to be a team that takes it to you via its deadly transition game and speed. There is nothing wrong with that. But last night's team was doing neither. The more unsettling question is whether it is now inadvertently built to do neither particularly well. On this scenario, the loss of Subban fundamentally weakens the 'transition' game, while the addition of Weber and Shaw are not enough to make us a truly punishing, Bruins '11-type team of intimidators. Time will tell, but it's a perpetual problem for GMs: if you subtract from an era of strength in order to address an area of weakness, does your team risk falling through the cracks?

 

(I hasten to add that I'm not declaring that the Habs are indeed falling through the cracks. Just musing over the possibility).

[revvvrob]

I was hoping after Tortorella called out Max at the World Cup that he could come

out with a little more jump. 

 

Please Max, please, don't prove Torts right!!

[habs rule]

41 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I'll ignore the last (fraught) bit and agree that there is nothing wrong with aggressive physicality. The point is just that there are other ways to 'take the game' to opponents, and that the team over the past half-decade has been built to be a team that takes it to you via its deadly transition game and speed. There is nothing wrong with that. But last night's team was doing neither. The more unsettling question is whether it is now inadvertently built to do neither particularly well. On this scenario, the loss of Subban fundamentally weakens the 'transition' game, while the addition of Weber and Shaw are not enough to make us a truly punishing, Bruins '11-type team of intimidators. Time will tell, but it's a perpetual problem for GMs: if you subtract from an era of strength in order to address an area of weakness, does your team risk falling through the cracks?

 

(I hasten to add that I'm not declaring that the Habs are indeed falling through the cracks. Just musing over the possibility).

This team should be built on speed and skill, however it is kind of like Le Genius and MB don't really know what they want, so they vacillate. The last bit by way was tongue in  cheek.

[Scott462]

I think for the most part the guys are still getting used to their new lines and team mates and Ottawa came straight out of the gate on fire and was all over us. Like I said this was a completely different Sens team that faced Toronto a couple days ago. Lets keep things in perspective.

 

Yesterday was hard on a lot of guys but there is no reason to start doom and glooming just yet, we came from behind and battled back against a team playing a great game.

 

Max I thought played a lot better than he did in the season opener, he battled for a lot of chances and was a bit unlucky on a couple breakaways. IMO the refs were a bit biased towards Ottawa. Some of their calls were questionable.

 

I'm really not too concerned with our transition game, we have plenty of guys that can move the puck and Weber can too when asked he had a couple really nice passes to enter the zone the problem was we had it stripped a lot once we got there.

 

Also I feel bad for DD on that shootout, he already seems to be on the chopping block and was benched in the third period. I think they gave him a chance to do what he usually is good at and he blew it. 

[Scott462]

2 hours ago, sbhatt said:

 

The guy doesn't 'hit'...he occasionally brushes up against opposing players enough to get credited with the statistic from time to time.  There's no intensity in his game at all.  To quote Boone:  "Max Pacioretty has started the season in a coma".

 

And while I concede that teams can win without a physical forechecking element, those teams also have a more offense-forward system than MT's yawner of a system...completely different games.  Maybe I've just been spoiled watching stretches of the Hawks-Preds games the past two nights, and my expectations where intensity is concerned in a hockey game have been skewed.

 

Well we have 9 goals in two games so I think our offense isn't doing too bad right now.

[DON]

2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I think we can all agree that another season of watching the Habs fail to take the game to the opposition will make us all puke. The disagreement would centre on what this means. I tend to side with Commandant that framing the issue as one of hitting everything that moves (really hitting, not just the little bumps that the Paciorettys of the world dole out) is unhelpful. In fact, there seems to be little intrinsic correlation between outhitting opponents and winning hockey games. It's the passivity, the listlessness, the lack of dynamic team play in games like last night's that demoralizes us all.

 

There was a time when the Habs seemed to play a more up-tempo system defined by excellent support for the puck-carrier and lots of quick, efficient passing. This was the team whose 'transition game' was widely feared. That was also the team that went to the semi-finals in '14. Ever since then, this element of the Habs' game has been receding. I don't know why; presumably Therrien wants something else. It's that earlier approach to 'taking the game to the opposition' that I've always assumed would define any Cup run by this generation of Canadiens...but I'm not sure if the current roster configuration is built for it. That 'transition game' model was effectively predicted on either Markov or Subban as high-end puck-moving D-men who could overwhelm the opposition coming through the neutral zone. We no longer have this kind of d-corps, so maybe some other strategy is indeed what's called for. The danger is getting caught in a nether region, neither big and strong enough to be Boston 2011, nor quick and fast enough to be Chicago.

 

Regardless, nothing calls for the lacklustre non-competitiveness on display for two periods last night.

Demoralizes us all? How did you come to that conclusion?

Nothing calls for that display? maybe so but being 2nd game of year could be part of it, also maybe give Sens some credit for playing hard until they got a lead and every freakin team, every year has games like that, where a contender will play like crap and get blown out by a cellar dweller.  

[DON]

2 hours ago, sbhatt said:

 

The guy doesn't 'hit'...he occasionally brushes up against opposing players enough to get credited with the statistic from time to time.  There's no intensity in his game at all.  To quote Boone:  "Max Pacioretty has started the season in a coma".

 

And while I concede that teams can win without a physical forechecking element, those teams also have a more offense-forward system than MT's yawner of a system...completely different games.  Maybe I've just been spoiled watching stretches of the Hawks-Preds games the past two nights, and my expectations where intensity is concerned in a hockey game have been skewed.

No, he actually bowled over at least two Sens...which only stood out to me, because I agree he normally does a fly-by or puts forth a token effort to be physical. So I was pleasantly surprised to see he actually does know how to throw a hit. But, also I don't expect him to become a Emelin and I think many would be pleased if he simply helps lead the team in offense again.

If he had of scored on that partial breakaway, or the tap-in open net pass he missed, the oldtimer Boone might of woke up (but who could blame anyone from nodding off for first 1/2 of that game).

[Guest Stogey24]

It's hilarious this team basis everything around character, yet the captain doesn't bring it every night. 

 

Max is a great player, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying.. 

[DON]

4 minutes ago, Stogey24 said:

It's hilarious this team basis everything around character, yet the captain doesn't bring it every night. 

 

Max is a great player, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying.. 

We all have watched him play exact same game for years now and when he is hot, 100% of fans say "best contract in the whole NHL", when he isn't scoring "he is a floater and not worthy to be captain...trade him!!!"...safe to call that being fickle isn't it?