Into the Abyss: the Carey Price debate

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

12 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

 

Would you have the numbers to Tuesday's Lotto Max?

 

Haha, if only. I stand by that prediction, though!

[GHT120]

3 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Haha, if only. I stand by that prediction, though!

You do know that "magical" powers can be used to help others, just not yourself ... if I ask REALLY nicely? ? ? ? ? 

[Commandant]

18 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

I'm not shocked to see this discussion but I'm surprised Chicoutimi started it.

 

Honestely, I have always wondered if the Habs made the best choice with Price over Halak.  Unfortunately, we will never know what could have been because the Habs never entertained or listened to any offers.  I always felt that the Habs saying no way not interested was a bad decision. 

 

It is unarguable that Price is better than Halak.  However, I have always felt that the Habs should have found out what kind of crazy over payment a team would have given up to get Price? ex:  Ducks - Getzlaff + Perry (or Bobby Ryan)?; Kings - Kopitar + ?; etc. 

 

The Habs could have received major upgrades at F and/or D for a slight downgrade in Goal.  That scenario likely would have seen better team results.  Price has always had a ton of hype so what the Habs could have got for Price would have been crazy.   

 

Price has always let in a bunch of weak goals that most other starters would have stopped.  In Prices 1st 2-3 season most of the weak goals were caused by a mistake  ex:  a turnover, intercepted pass, etc.  Price would be exalted and there was always a scapegoat to blame for him letting in those bad goals.  In the last few years his baby is to blame. 

 

Most people always seemed to say Price was young and that he'd grow out of it.  When Wamsley used to post here he said that all the time.  The truth is that time has proved Wamsley was dead wrong on that.  My argument has always been that growing out of that is typically how goalies get drafted and make it into the NHL.   

 

Also, I have to mention Subban who made comments that he loved the Habs and wanted to spend his entire career with them.  The moment I started disliking Subban was when he signed that contract.  PK wanted 8.5mil, was offered 7.85 mil, held out for arbitration, then agreed to 9.25mil. 

 

Sadly, I have to consider Price to be similar.  i.e. a player that signs for the maximum amount possible for a team they claim to love.  I tend to find that to be greedy, and if he never wins the Cup his huge contract will be the primary reason why. 

 

Danault seems to be in that same category too.  Think of Toffoli and Anderson who had never played for the Habs, they had no friends on the team, etc.  Both of them gave the Habs discounts and they never said they wanted to play their entire careers with the Habs. 

 

I'm definitely tentatively worried about the playoffs, and Price getting to start because he's the #1 goalie.  Luckily, the Habs basically have their key players locked up for numerous years.  Therefore, if they dont win this year they have a chance in the next several years.  Thats only if they stop making the same mistake of going with Price because he's the starter. 

 

The Habs should play them as a tandem and play whoever gives them the best chance to win. 

 

 

 

1) How do we know what Anaheim (who had a good goalie at the time) or anyone else would have given for Price?

 

2) "Price has always let in a bunch of weak goals that most other starters would have stopped." I don't think this is accurate either.  We think Price gives up more of these cause you watch Price 82 times a year, but no other starter do you see near as often.

 

3) "The Habs should play them as a tandem and play whoever gives them the best chance to win. " They have 7 starts and 5 starts... isn't that what they are doing?

 

4) "Think of Toffoli and Anderson who had never played for the Habs, they had no friends on the team, etc.  Both of them gave the Habs discounts and they never said they wanted to play their entire careers with the Habs."  Anderson gave no discount.  Toffoli took the best deal he could get in a pandemic, flat-cap environment.  This argument is suspect at best.

 

5) "I'm definitely tentatively worried about the playoffs, and Price getting to start because he's the #1 goalie."  Did you watch last year's playoffs?

[DON]

6 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

."  Did you watch last year's playoffs?

Ya, but he should of stopped that goal in game #1, look at Allen's save%, is obvious, Price should be 1b and give him rest.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

I can absolutely see the argument for keeping Price. I’m not sure how anyone can’t say that he struggles for long stretches. Yes he also has stretches like last playoff where he is incredible but which Price shows up this playoffs?
 

I think the cap space is way more important. If Price was moved Allen will play out his contract and the plan would be Primeau with a vet backup

 

Meaning the lions share of the 10.5 would be available   

Depending on what Danault demands it will be difficult to replace Tatar and possibly Armia and we could live without Price

[tomh009]

1 hour ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

I think the cap space is way more important. If Price was moved Allen will play out his contract and the plan would be Primeau with a vet backup

Primeau looks good but he's not a sure thing yet. It will be interesting to see how he compares to McNiven and Demchenko this year. There are only four other teams in the division so the three goalies will see the same teams many times, making for better comparisons.

[Habsfan]

I can't believe we're having this discussion. Remember the last time we traded our Star Goalie...the team took a decade to get over that loss. Now don't get be wrong, I'm not saying that Price=Roy, but before we go and trade/let go of our starting goalie, let's find out what the future holds. Will Primeau become the star goalie that we think he'll become? WE all know that Allen CAN'T be the starter. He was a starter for a while and that did not go well. Allen is a great back-up goalie.

 

Lastly, we all know that Price has a tendency of having slow starts...let's give him 20 games to see if he can get his shit together!

[Prime Minister Koivu]

A large part of this is what you think of Price. 
 

Is Price that much better than Allen?

 

Is Price’s total body of work really impressive?

 

He was lights out good in the playoffs. He was also heavily criticized for being awful for much of the season. 
 

When Price is on he is amazing but he spends too much time in loopy land. 

[Commandant]

3 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

I can absolutely see the argument for keeping Price. I’m not sure how anyone can’t say that he struggles for long stretches. Yes he also has stretches like last playoff where he is incredible but which Price shows up this playoffs?
 

I think the cap space is way more important. If Price was moved Allen will play out his contract and the plan would be Primeau with a vet backup

 

Meaning the lions share of the 10.5 would be available   

Depending on what Danault demands it will be difficult to replace Tatar and possibly Armia and we could live without Price

 

I think a team with a rookie with one year of AHL experience in Primeau and a vet backup is not a Stanely Cup contender.  Goaltending remains king in the playoffs. 

[Commandant]

1 hour ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

A large part of this is what you think of Price. 
 

Is Price that much better than Allen?

 

Is Price’s total body of work really impressive?

 

He was lights out good in the playoffs. He was also heavily criticized for being awful for much of the season. 
 

When Price is on he is amazing but he spends too much time in loopy land. 

 

Considering that Allen has never been good as a number 1 goalie, yes Price is better and significantly so. 

 

I really think this conversation is loony.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

This conversation is the byproduct of having a good backup goaltender for the first time in awhile. 
 

That reality has kind of transitioned into a topic about Price when we should simply be happy that we have two relatively equal goalies, statistically.
 

I’ve already stated my opinion, which is fully in support of Price. 
 

With that being said as was suggested in the initial post, Price’s numbers have indeed  somewhat declined over the past few years. If one were to look at his save percentage over the last 10 years, it stands at .918. If you shorten that to over the last 5 years, his save percentage is .913 over that span. A .913 save percentage places him about 20th over the last 5 years out of goalies who have played over 100 games. 
 

Other goalies with .913 save percentage over the last 5 years: Markstrom, Hart

 

What is Allen’s save percentage over the last 5 years? .912

 

Other goalies who have a .918 over the last 10 years: Lehner, Gibson, Schneider, Khudobin, Crawford, Lundqvisy, Vokoun, Kuemper, Luongo.

 

My conclusion is that it can certainly be argued that Price has declined statistically somewhere over the past 5 years and may no longer be in the top top tier cream of the crop statistically on a consistent basis.
 

However Price’s ceiling is still very high and it’s always possible that some of these other goalies’ number have been inflated based on the team in front of them.
 

In addition, expecting a better outcome just because something is different and “no longer Price” does not mean it will be better. Allen’s ceiling (at absolute best) would be to be an equal with Price on any given night.  We need to stick with Price, and I personally have full confidence in him.
 

** as a side note, I am aware that I simply noted save percentage as of it were the be all end all statistic. However, regardless of the category, Price is around the same area statistically and leads nowhere over the last 5 years outside of the amount of losses he has. Statstically, he’s

been a middle of the pack starter over the past few years.

 

[hab29RETIRED]

52 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

This conversation is the byproduct of having a good backup goaltender for the first time in awhile. 
 

That reality has kind of transitioned into a topic about Price when we should simply be happy that we have two relatively equal goalies, statistically.
 

I’ve already stated my opinion, which is fully in support of Price. 
 

With that being said as was suggested in the initial post, Price’s numbers have indeed  somewhat declined over the past few years. If one were to look at his save percentage over the last 10 years, it stands at .918. If you shorten that to over the last 5 years, his save percentage is .913 over that span. A .913 save percentage places him about 20th over the last 5 years out of goalies who have played over 100 games. 
 

Other goalies with .913 save percentage over the last 5 years: Markstrom, Hart

 

What is Allen’s save percentage over the last 5 years? .912

 

Other goalies who have a .918 over the last 10 years: Lehner, Gibson, Schneider, Khudobin, Crawford, Lundqvisy, Vokoun, Kuemper, Luongo.

 

My conclusion is that it can certainly be argued that Price has declined statistically somewhere over the past 5 years and may no longer be in the top top tier cream of the crop statistically on a consistent basis.
 

However Price’s ceiling is still very high and it’s always possible that some of these other goalies’ number have been inflated based on the team in front of them.
 

In addition, expecting a better outcome just because something is different and “no longer Price” does not mean it will be better. Allen’s ceiling (at absolute best) would be to be an equal with Price on any given night.  We need to stick with Price, and I personally have full confidence in him.
 

** as a side note, I am aware that I simply noted save percentage as of it were the be all end all statistic. However, regardless of the category, Price is around the same area statistically and leads nowhere over the last 5 years outside of the amount of losses he has. Statstically, he’s

been a middle of the pack starter over the past few years.

 

That’s actually the problem.  He is not being paid as a middle of pack goaltender.  He’s being paid like the Conner McDavid of goaltenders.

 

I definitely don’t want Allen to take over or be given the reigns. I think you see what a Price takes us this year.  this is probably the best chance to get to the final 4.  Three  of the 4 divisional leaders from last year were in our division last year. All the teams in the north have flaws.  If this year falters and cant win at least a couple of rounds - we have a legitimate chance to be in the semi-finals, than you look at or have the discussion about moving him. But Premieau or Allen should not be seen as the answer. I don’t think Allen is capable enough and Premieau has not proven squat. 

[Commandant]

1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

** as a side note, I am aware that I simply noted save percentage as of it were the be all end all statistic. However, regardless of the category, Price is around the same area statistically and leads nowhere over the last 5 years outside of the amount of losses he has. Statstically, he’s

been a middle of the pack starter over the past few years.

 

 

Better stats which take into account the volume and quality of shots he has faced have him as better than middle of the pack, they continue to show he's an elite goalie. 

 

https://lastwordonsports.com/hockey/2020/08/10/carey-price-2019-20-amazing/

 

 

[hab29RETIRED]

31 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Better stats which take into account the volume and quality of shots he has faced have him as better than middle of the pack, they continue to show he's an elite goalie. 

 

https://lastwordonsports.com/hockey/2020/08/10/carey-price-2019-20-amazing/

 

 

The point is he isn’t getting paid as a top ten goaltender, he is getting paid as the top goaltender.  He’s in the same situation as Toews a couple of years ago on a contract that paid him for what he did to contribute to actual TEAM success (minus the cup rings). 

 

ovechkin is paid to score and has for the most part been among the leaders, year-in-year-out.  Price at the end of the day needs to get us wins like Winnipeg got. Winnipeg had a far worse defence, but got much better and more consistent goaltending. I’ve been saying for the past 3-4 years our D sucked, and I still think we need another true top pairing Dman, but it’s been the the best D we’ve had in a LONG time. 
 

I don’t think it’s fair at all to put the blame at Price’s feet for the past 3-4 years. Our goaltending sucked and we couldn’t score. This year the offence is good (despite not having anyone who is a truly elite #1 centre - YET), a d the D is much better.  At the end of the day Price’s stats need to translate to actual TEAM success.  It may not sound fair, but in a cap system, players need to earn their pay. I don’t think Proce will be a cap anchor like Alzner, but with a team on the rise, we aren’t going to have cap room to spare like the crappy teams we’ve had the last 4-5 years.  Out $10.5m has to get some winning results this year.

 

i think he is more than capable to get us at least to the final 4. But he needs to do his part to make it happen.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Is Price even in the conversation when compared to goalie greats?

 

Is Price comparable to Roy or Brodeur? 
 

Not even close but he is paid that way and he has a reputation that way. 
 

Price is more on the Luongo level 

[DON]

Luongo 2.52 0.919, 489w

Price     2.50 0.917, 352w

Roy       2.54 0.910, 551w

[Prime Minister Koivu]

28 minutes ago, DON said:

Luongo 2.52 0.919, 489w

Price     2.50 0.917, 352w

Roy       2.54 0.910, 551w

So you believe that Luongo and Price are on Roy’s level? 

 

If we could have any current NHL goaltender not including the cap would you pick Price?

 

 

[Commandant]

4 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Is Price even in the conversation when compared to goalie greats?

 

Is Price comparable to Roy or Brodeur? 
 

Not even close but he is paid that way and he has a reputation that way. 
 

Price is more on the Luongo level 

 

Disagree.  I put him in that conversation.  I think you massively underrate him and it shows when you suggest this team is better off with a rookie and vet backup.

[Commandant]

1 hour ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

So you believe that Luongo and Price are on Roy’s level? 

 

If we could have any current NHL goaltender not including the cap would you pick Price?

 

 

 

Yes. If you told me i was in a one game winner take all scenario... i would take price right now.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Just now, Commandant said:

 

Disagree.  I put him in that conversation.  I think you massively underrate him and it shows when you suggest this team is better off with a rookie and vet backup.

 
No that is not what I suggest. 
 

Im saying that a rookie plus vet back up along with 2 good wingers that Prices cap hit would allow us to add is far better than the performance of Price 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

For four years or so, at his peak, Price was probably the best goalie I've ever seen (OK, best after Roy in 1993; but I question whether even Roy had such a sustained run of sublime play). His level of control was extraordinary; he was so far ahead of the curve that he would routinely use deflections in order to angle the puck to his D-men in such a way as to start the transition. He barely seemed to move and yet he was in complete control.

 

The complication is that Price has not been that guy. 2017-18 was the big drop-off and since then he's kind of bobbed around, having good stretches and not-so-good.

 

He's akin to a forward who had about four seasons of scoring, like, 150 points and terrorizing the league, and then settles into being a mere PPG guy. What do you do with him, in terms of historical legacy? Is he one of the all-time greats, or not?

 

I think if Price wins a Cup, the debate is settled and he will go down as an all-time great Hab. If he doesn't, he will still go down as a great, but not in the first rank. I still say his number will be retired, because he is a guaranteed Hall of Famer and because he is the only Hab to even touch genuine greatness since Roy.

 

 

[Prime Minister Koivu]

CC, Price hasn’t been that guy in a long time. 
 

I clearly rate Price significantly lower than everyone else. I see a guy who had some spectacular seasons that is not that person anymore and his overall body of work is average. 
 

If Price does put this team on his back and wins us a cup like Roy did (more than once even) then I’ll change my mind. 
 

I think Price is living on an old reputation 

[Prime Minister Koivu]

11 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Yes. If you told me i was in a one game winner take all scenario... i would take price right now.

You might get unbeatable Price or you might get dopey Price. 

 

I can think of at least 5 goalies that I would rather have right now. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

2 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

CC, Price hasn’t been that guy in a long time. 
 

I clearly rate Price significantly lower than everyone else. I see a guy who had some spectacular seasons that is not that person anymore and his overall body of work is average. 
 

If Price does put this team on his back and wins us a cup like Roy did (more than once even) then I’ll change my mind. 
 

I think Price is living on an old reputation 

 

Like I said, 2017-18 is the big drop off.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

14 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Like I said, 2017-18 is the big drop off.

I do expect Price to have a significant positive impact on this year’s playoffs. 
 

Im not saying Price sucks cause he doesn’t. I’m saying he isn’t as good as he used to be and we would be better off with his cap space spent elsewhere next season.