Plekanec re-signs with Habs

[Habsy]

The French press seem to get it right for the most part, they're just too biased toward francophones. The English press (the Gazette, English fans) tend to be the type that complain about every move management makes, I suppose because during the Houle era they warmed up to the idea that NHL managers are just fans in suits. I don't get that from RDS. They seem to have less emotional attachment to players like Plekanec and Halak and are able to look at this sort of thing more objectively.

Maybe it's just coincidental that RDS has better staff than the Gazette does. At the end of the day, English or French, the average hockey fan knows just about nothing about hockey (same for most topics, I suppose) - and yet so many of these average fans (and with journalists like Jack Todd around, the line between fan and professional blurs) feel so passionately about decisions that, more often than not, they completely fail to understand.

I see it more with this fan base than any other: the common belief that fans know just as well as management, if not better. So sad.

I find the tone of your post really odd. Accusing people of completely failing to understand decisions, like you're all knowing, sitting in the teams front office. You won't find a more knowledgeable fanbase in the world. Look at what just happened, that's alot of money, in the salary cap era. I like the fact that we kept a home grown, quality player, but I have no problem with people questioning it.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Habsy

[BCHabnut]

Ya. I guess your right. Ho hum. I should just pay my scalper 300 per ticket and buy the merchandise and not question decisions. Ya, I'll do that, because I don't get to have an opinion.

I like all four of the oompa loompas. All four on the same team, sucking back 2/3 of the salary all locked in for four to 6 years. Oh well. I'll just pay the money when we get beat up. It's OK.

Oh ya, I forgot to quote BTH post. this is a response acknowledging my total lack of scruples and accepting my place in the world.

Edited June 23, 2010 by BCHabnut

[huzer]

As I'm one of the negative ones in this thread, I assume this is directed at me somewhat.

No. To be quite honest, my post was mainly about fans in general. For management, it's damned if you do, damned if you don't, every move will be criticized and none will be universally praised. I'd guarantee that some of the posters that are currently complaining about the deal would be complaining that Plekanec "walked for nothing" and that it was traditional bad asset management by the inept Habs.

As far as the actual signing of Plex, I'm glad he's back. And hey, if you go back to the preseason threads, I was one of the ones who figured his 39pt season was the "real" Plekanec. I said I'd eat crow, my hat, or my foot (something) if he had a better season this year. Thankfully, nobody took me up on that offer. I'm actually glad that it's a longer term deal, I was tired of the 1 or 2 year "tryout" carrots that were continually dangled in front of the players. Once again, I think people tend to use offensive stats as the be-all end-all quantifier for salaries. While that's a valid argument to a point, Plex provides value beyond just his 70pts. If he was a one dimension 70pt player, he wouldn't have been frequently listed as #2 behind Marleau for UFA centers.

[BTH]

I find the tone of your post really odd. Accusing people of completely failing to understand decisions, like you're all knowing, sitting in the teams front office. You won't find a more knowledgeable fanbase in the world. Look at what just happened, that's alot of money, in the salary cap era. I like the fact that we kept a home grown, quality player, but I have no problem with people questioning it.

Well, I don't have a tendency to whine about every move management makes. I tend to assume they know what they're doing. If I got mad at every single trade and signing THEN I would be acting as if I'm all-knowing because I'd be valuing my own opinion above someone who's clearly more qualified, experienced and clued-in than myself.

When people say that the fan base is knowledgeable, they mean that the average Joe Habs fan is more likely to know about basic rules like icing and off-sides than the average Joe Blues fan. It doesn't follow that the "top" Habs fans are better than the "top" Blues fans. If anything, because the Habs have so many fans, they have both the most knowledgeable fans and the most clueless fans.

Ya. I guess your right. Ho hum. I should just pay my scalper 300 per ticket and buy the merchandise and not question decisions. Ya, I'll do that, because I don't get to have an opinion.

I like all four of the oompa loompas. All four on the same team, sucking back 2/3 of the salary all locked in for four to 6 years. Oh well. I'll just pay the money when we get beat up. It's OK.

Oh ya, I forgot to quote BTH post. this is a response acknowledging my total lack of scruples and accepting my place in the world.

There is a massive difference between questioning a decision and bitching as a reflex to every decision they make as if you assume them to be incompetent at their job.

I wasn't really referring specifically to the Plekanec signing. The Halak trade is a better indicator.

The average fan (out of millions) doesn't know where Montreal's standing is with the cap, so how can they possibly judge half the moves they make? In short, I just have no respect for the opinion of the "average Joe" on just about any topic. Pierre Gauthier and his staff have all of the information at hand, go through every possible scenario together, make sure everything fits with the cap, have experience doing this sort of thing, etc... They know what they're doing.

[Wamsley01]

Ya. I guess your right. Ho hum. I should just pay my scalper 300 per ticket and buy the merchandise and not question decisions. Ya, I'll do that, because I don't get to have an opinion.

I like all four of the oompa loompas. All four on the same team, sucking back 2/3 of the salary all locked in for four to 6 years. Oh well. I'll just pay the money when we get beat up. It's OK.

Oh ya, I forgot to quote BTH post. this is a response acknowledging my total lack of scruples and accepting my place in the world.

So buying a $300 pair of Nikes and a Tracksuit gives me the right to question how Nike is run?

The Montreal Canadiens are a brand. They are a corporation that is interested first and foremost in making

money, if the 100th Anniversary marketing didn't prove that, nothing will.

Like Nike, they are selling you a product. The only power you have is to refuse to buy that product. If you come on

here and piss and moan about Halak being traded, Plekanec being resigned and then go buy a new Eller jersey and

pony up $300 for tickets, they DO NOT give a shit what you have to say.

We as fans operate on instinct, we usually make statements about things with little to no research and when we

declare something, there is generally a 50/50 chance it will be correct. When it is correct the messageboard way

is to become arrogant and pretend that our 50/50 guess is proof of our genius.

In truth everything we think we see pales in comparison to what Gauthier and Gainey know about Halak. Statistical

reports, Groulx works with Halak on a daily basis, his opinion on Halak's technique is probably more informed than

anything we have seen in game footage, etc. Yet if Halak does turn out to be better, people will say I told you so even

though they have 1/50th of the info that Habs made the decision on.

We like to think we know what the hell is going on, but we don't.

[PMAC]

The news just keeps getting worse...

Plex got money, term and a NTC :puke: I would have been a lot happier if he had signed with another team for that money for 6years. The Bruins trade for Horton and we lock up Plex

[ForumGhost]

Amd if Pleks had signed elsewhere, we would hear just as much complaining, if not more.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Sports fans are irrational.

Look at the game threads on this forum. If we win a few games we are suddenly contenders, if we loose a few then we are abysmal and won't amount to anything. It goes back and forth and back and forth some more.

We have enough cap space left to sign what we need to sign. Hammer and Gill come off the books the following season and that gives us some cap space to spend also.

[BlueKross]

We have enough cap space left to sign what we need to sign. Hammer and Gill come off the books the following season and that gives us some cap space to spend also.

Right on. Luv the signing. Not keen on the NTC. There is still enough flexibility to change the complection of this team. I am more concerned with the coaching staff than anything else.

[brobin]

Given the performance of this club since 93, there is no reason to think management know what they are doing. They signed a bunch of small players and people complained. I think those complaints were valid.

Their decisions around goaltending have resulted in failing to go deep several years ago at the expense of giving a rookie playoff experience. That hardly made him a better goalie, we are still waiting for him to rebound!

The decisions around the defense have resulted in an expensive, yet pretty average backend.

We have numerous problem players and had to clean house last year. Despite this, our playoffs were dogged by issues with the kosts bros.

They hired BGL and then had to eat the salary.

Now, no one is perfect, but the proof is in the pudding. Until this leadership gives us a team that is considered a candidate for a cup run (as opposed to riding a goalie and couple of players to an unlikely conference final), then why should we assume they know what they are doing?

Right now I am looking at a boston team which is adding quality players, have top draft picks, and has several goaltending options in the program. As much as I hate them, they have turned that team around rapidly and despite the loss of Kesler, seem to be back on the upswing.

Philly has built another strong team, despite my hatred for them. If they ever get a goalie, look out!

Pitts, Washington, and Chicago used the "suck several years and get all the top young talent" approach, but they did it well. Strong clubs there for several years. Again, only thing missing is goaltending. We beat those teams because Halak was stellar and their goalies were brutal. Pitts would have cleaned our clocks if MAF could stop a beach ball.

I don't question every decision they make, but I think it is fair to say they have made enough dumb decisions over the years that it warrants critical analysis of the current moves.

To me, we are now locked into two smallish centers, one of which is questionable in the playoffs. Both good players, both over paid. Both on the same team may not be a good top pairing.

We had two great young goalies, now we have one. Did they pick the right one? Open to debate in my opinion. What is clear is we no longer have a backup plan for Price (Halak), we might be in the same situation as Pitts. Even their offensive powerhouse could not overcome MAF sucking and they had no one else. The jury is still out on this however as we await who they bring in to backup Price. They could still fix this by bringing in a solid vet to both mentor Price, but also be capable of doing it himself if Price falls apart again.

Well, I don't have a tendency to whine about every move management makes. I tend to assume they know what they're doing. If I got mad at every single trade and signing THEN I would be acting as if I'm all-knowing because I'd be valuing my own opinion above someone who's clearly more qualified, experienced and clued-in than myself.

When people say that the fan base is knowledgeable, they mean that the average Joe Habs fan is more likely to know about basic rules like icing and off-sides than the average Joe Blues fan. It doesn't follow that the "top" Habs fans are better than the "top" Blues fans. If anything, because the Habs have so many fans, they have both the most knowledgeable fans and the most clueless fans.

There is a massive difference between questioning a decision and bitching as a reflex to every decision they make as if you assume them to be incompetent at their job.

I wasn't really referring specifically to the Plekanec signing. The Halak trade is a better indicator.

The average fan (out of millions) doesn't know where Montreal's standing is with the cap, so how can they possibly judge half the moves they make? In short, I just have no respect for the opinion of the "average Joe" on just about any topic. Pierre Gauthier and his staff have all of the information at hand, go through every possible scenario together, make sure everything fits with the cap, have experience doing this sort of thing, etc... They know what they're doing.

[Chris]

Sorry Brobin, Goaltending has been the least of the Habs problems since 93.

[BTH]

Given the performance of this club since 93, there is no reason to think management know what they are doing. They signed a bunch of small players and people complained. I think those complaints were valid.

Their decisions around goaltending have resulted in failing to go deep several years ago at the expense of giving a rookie playoff experience. That hardly made him a better goalie, we are still waiting for him to rebound!

The decisions around the defense have resulted in an expensive, yet pretty average backend.

We have numerous problem players and had to clean house last year. Despite this, our playoffs were dogged by issues with the kosts bros.

They hired BGL and then had to eat the salary.

Now, no one is perfect, but the proof is in the pudding. Until this leadership gives us a team that is considered a candidate for a cup run (as opposed to riding a goalie and couple of players to an unlikely conference final), then why should we assume they know what they are doing?

Right now I am looking at a boston team which is adding quality players, have top draft picks, and has several goaltending options in the program. As much as I hate them, they have turned that team around rapidly and despite the loss of Kesler, seem to be back on the upswing.

Philly has built another strong team, despite my hatred for them. If they ever get a goalie, look out!

Pitts, Washington, and Chicago used the "suck several years and get all the top young talent" approach, but they did it well. Strong clubs there for several years. Again, only thing missing is goaltending. We beat those teams because Halak was stellar and their goalies were brutal. Pitts would have cleaned our clocks if MAF could stop a beach ball.

I don't question every decision they make, but I think it is fair to say they have made enough dumb decisions over the years that it warrants critical analysis of the current moves.

To me, we are now locked into two smallish centers, one of which is questionable in the playoffs. Both good players, both over paid. Both on the same team may not be a good top pairing.

We had two great young goalies, now we have one. Did they pick the right one? Open to debate in my opinion. What is clear is we no longer have a backup plan for Price (Halak), we might be in the same situation as Pitts. Even their offensive powerhouse could not overcome MAF sucking and they had no one else. The jury is still out on this however as we await who they bring in to backup Price. They could still fix this by bringing in a solid vet to both mentor Price, but also be capable of doing it himself if Price falls apart again.

Because they are professionals , have far more information than we do and then explain their moves to the press afterward, and the reasoning is pretty much always sound. If you buy a CD and it skips, would you then assume that the company that made it is incompetent and that you know how to make CDs better than they can? Reminds me of that interview where Tom Cruise argues with the doctor/scientist and refuses to listen to him.

You raise a lot of questions about some of the moves. Would bringing up Price fast hurt his development? Is it a problem to be locked into two 5'11 centers? If we trade Halak, what are the odds we get trapped with a busted Price? Maybe Price needs a vet to tutor him? ...

Do you really think Gauthier and his staff haven't asked themselves all of these questions and hundreds others before making these moves? Using a lot more to go on than we have, they put a lot more thought and effort into it than we do. They know that we're now locked into a small core and they know that that could be a problem. But they considered the alternatives, the cap, who's going to ready when, and other variables and decided that this was the wisest option. Who is some random fan who doesn't even know Montreal's cap situation to argue that Gauthier overlooked an issue or two? Every downside we bring up, Gauthier already considered.

Questioning is alright but the fans go beyond that. They act as if Gauthier is just another fan like them except that he's the one with the job. We don't have each quarter of the fan base ripping every four moves in turn, we have three quarters of the fan base ripping every significant move.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

This thread has gotten into some interesting territory.

I think a lot of it boils down, for me, to the spirit behind one's comments as much as the comments themselves. What bugs me is when fans take an adamant, 100% certain attitude that Move X is self-evidently a disaster and that the GM must be a blithering jackass to make it. Very rarely, in my experience, have Gainey or Gauthier (or before them, Serge Savard) made decisions that were OBVIOUSLY moronic. What they are doing is making decisions with necessarily limited information and with necessarily limited options, in a context marked by radical uncertainty.

Take trading Halak. We don't KNOW whether last season was Halak's peak, whether he will become the next Huet or the next Hasek or something in between. We don't KNOW whether Price will emerge as a compelling #1 G he has always been projected to be. We don't even know how good Eller will be. Nobody knows these things. So the GM makes a calculated gamble, based on his assessment of the future probabilities as well as his knowledge of the needs of the overall team system (e.g., the need for high-value young players) and the salary cap situation (keep halak, lose Pleks). Gauthier has more info and research at his fingertips than we do, but ultimately he is still making his best guess about outcomes.

Beyond that, decisions have to be measured against the real options available, not some fantasyland ideal. For instance, we can say that we'd rather have size down the middle than Gomez and Pleks. Fine. I agree. But it's one thing to say that, another thing to make it happen. The most likely result of losing Plekanec would simply have been a much weaker team down the middle for the forseeable future, not the magical acquisition of some 6'8 version of Malkin who (unlike Malkin) scores 5 points per game in the playoffs.

Only the truly inept GMs - the Houles and the Milburys - regularly make decisions that are self-evidently absurd. The idea that Gainey or Gauthier are in this category is nonsense.

It is 100% legitimate for fans to question that best guess based on their own sense of these factors. What is NOT legitimate in my opinion is acting as though there IS no uncertainty here and as though some vastly superior option to a given outcome is always readily available. I hate it when fans take the attitude that it's just obvious what should be done when it hardly ever is. That attitude speaks to a glib arrogance rooted mainly in ignorance of the complexities of the issue. So, honest disagreement? Sure. Righteously demanding Gauthier's head on a platter for making tough calls or going around like Chicken Little because we just signed our 27-year-old leading scorer to a 6-year deal at below market value? Ludicrous.

[dlbalr]

Plekanec's deal appears to be a straight $5 M per across the board (so not buyout/trade friendly like front or back loaded deals) and the NTC is a partial one - this can mean that he can only reject certain teams at certain times like Hamrlik.

Also while I'm here, the Darche deal is official at $500k (or so my contact sent me late last night).

[BCHabnut]

So buying a $300 pair of Nikes and a Tracksuit gives me the right to question how Nike is run?

The Montreal Canadiens are a brand. They are a corporation that is interested first and foremost in making

money, if the 100th Anniversary marketing didn't prove that, nothing will.

Like Nike, they are selling you a product. The only power you have is to refuse to buy that product. If you come on

here and piss and moan about Halak being traded, Plekanec being resigned and then go buy a new Eller jersey and

pony up $300 for tickets, they DO NOT give a shit what you have to say.

We as fans operate on instinct, we usually make statements about things with little to no research and when we

declare something, there is generally a 50/50 chance it will be correct. When it is correct the messageboard way

is to become arrogant and pretend that our 50/50 guess is proof of our genius.

In truth everything we think we see pales in comparison to what Gauthier and Gainey know about Halak. Statistical

reports, Groulx works with Halak on a daily basis, his opinion on Halak's technique is probably more informed than

anything we have seen in game footage, etc. Yet if Halak does turn out to be better, people will say I told you so even

though they have 1/50th of the info that Habs made the decision on.

We like to think we know what the hell is going on, but we don't.

.

I think if Price was traded you would be on here complaining just like you were last summer about the new core. You thought we should wait until this year. Your reasoning behind your disapointment was that we were stuck with this team, and may have missed an oportunity to be more selective about who we trade for. I agreed with the principal of your comments. But I was also optimistic about the core. Just as I agree with what you guys are saying now...to an extent.

But I am a Habs fan, and I really think we need someone to drive the net. That's all I want. I don't care about the Price/Halak debate, but I think we should have got a proven player back. I really do. I am hopefull about Eller. The day before the trade, my friend asked me what was going to happen. I told him that Halak will be traded to bring in some size and free up space to sign Plek. The reasoning behind the move is very sound.

But through all this the one thing I saw as a huge weakness for the last 10 years has not been addressed. Someone to drive the net. Size up front.

The only way this team can beat big, strong, defensive teams is when the Habs transition and passing is absolutely perfect. It does happen, and when it does, it is so fun to watch their speed and execution. But when it doesn't happen, it is frustrating. Just as you thought that last year was a missed oportunity to be selective and take our time to find assets. I think that the combination of trading Halak for unproven assets, and signing Plek to 6 year deal is a missed oportunity. I also look at that in analyzing our free agent issue this year, the reasoning behind the moves by Gautier were sound. But it still does not make us any better up front. As I said before. If some of the younger big guys can step up and play big, this team could be very good. Kosty and Poulliot both appear enigmatic though, so I'm not holding my breath.

As for Carey Price, I love to watch him play. His positioning and technique is awesome. I have no problem with him being the starter. I do worry about his mind, and whether he can handle the pressure in Montreal, but we will see. I would have been disapointed if Price was traded.

Edited June 23, 2010 by BCHabnut

[Wamsley01]

I think if Price was traded you would be on here complaining just like you were last summer about the new core. You thought we should wait until this year. Your reasoning behind your disapointment was that we were stuck with this team, and may have missed an oportunity to be more selective about who we trade for. I agreed with the principal of your comments. But I was also optimistic about the core. Just as I agree with what you guys are saying now...to an extent.

But I am a Habs fan, and I really think we need someone to drive the net. That's all I want. I don't care about the Price/Halak debate, but I think we should have got a proven player back. I really do. I am hopefull about Eller. The day before the trade, my friend asked me what was going to happen. I told him that Halak will be traded to bring in some size and free up space to sign Plek. The reasoning behind the move is very sound.

But through all this the one thing I saw as a huge weakness for the last 10 years has not been addressed. Someone to drive the net. Size up front.

The only way this team can beat big, strong, defensive teams is when the Habs transition and passing is absolutely perfect. It does happen, and when it does, it is so fun to watch their speed and execution. But when it doesn't happen, it is frustrating. Just as you thought that last year was a missed oportunity to be selective and take our time to find assets. I think that the combination of trading Halak for unproven assets, and signing Plek to 6 year deal is a missed oportunity. I also look at that in analyzing our free agent issue this year, the reasoning behind the moves by Gautier were sound. But it still does not make us any better up front. As I said before. If some of the younger big guys can step up and play big, this team could be very good. Kosty and Poulliot both appear enigmatic though, so I'm not holding my breath.

As for Carey Price, I love to watch him play. His positioning and technique is awesome. I have no problem with him being the starter. I do worry about his mind, and whether he can handle the pressure in Montreal, but we will see. I would have been disapointed if Price was traded.

It is easy to get locked into a belief. Once you are locked into that belief it makes it difficult to adjust to a radical change in path.

I was the perfect example of this last off season. I looked into teams cap situations, I saw how many teams would be up against

the cap and looked at the US economy and made an assumption based on what I believed was common sense that

the Cap was likely to decrease.

It wasn't a ridiculous idea, a ton of teams are bleeding money down south, attendance is down significantly and yet

miraculously the cap has increased. Now I am perplexed how the NHL revenues went up when attendance decreased, the Hawks,

Bruins resurgence has plateaued and the Canadiens analization of their fans through merchandising is over.

It did. End of story.

So I was locked into not spending cap and when locked in rejected Gainey's moves immediately. I rejected them

based on that, as well as my bias against Hall Gill, my hatred of the Devils (Brian Gionta) and my emotional attachment to a core

of players who I was told would be the cornerstone of future success (Higgins, Komisarek etc.)

In essence my idea was always flawed because I don't truly understand the revenue streams or know how to properly

assess where they could create new ones (internet sales, advertising, CDN $ increase etc). I made flawed assumptions

that when presented to others who also do not understand the revenue streams either seemed coherent and plausible.

If I came on here to complain about Price it would have been based on the logic that I have already put forth for the

last 3 months. It also would have hinged on the return.

I have spent at least a hundred hours compiling data and creating a shot model to compare both goaltenders, I referenced

history in regards to a goaltenders peak years and compared his credentials to players who fit his same profile. Yet I will

fully admit that it is only a partial glimpse into the real story.

I would have been happy as long as the return was something I deemed to be fair.

[BCHabnut]

It is easy to get locked into a belief. Once you are locked into that belief it makes it difficult to adjust to a radical change in path.

I was the perfect example of this last off season. I looked into teams cap situations, I saw how many teams would be up against

the cap and looked at the US economy and made an assumption based on what I believed was common sense that

the Cap was likely to decrease.

It wasn't a ridiculous idea, a ton of teams are bleeding money down south, attendance is down significantly and yet

miraculously the cap has increased. Now I am perplexed how the NHL revenues went up when attendance decreased, the Hawks,

Bruins resurgence has plateaued and the Canadiens analization of their fans through merchandising is over.

It did. End of story.

So I was locked into not spending cap and when locked in rejected Gainey's moves immediately. I rejected them

based on that, as well as my bias against Hall Gill, my hatred of the Devils (Brian Gionta) and my emotional attachment to a core

of players who I was told would be the cornerstone of future success (Higgins, Komisarek etc.)

In essence my idea was always flawed because I don't truly understand the revenue streams or know how to properly

assess where they could create new ones (internet sales, advertising, CDN $ increase etc). I made flawed assumptions

that when presented to others who also do not understand the revenue streams either seemed coherent and plausible.

If I came on here to complain about Price it would have been based on the logic that I have already put forth for the

last 3 months. It also would have hinged on the return.

I have spent at least a hundred hours compiling data and creating a shot model to compare both goaltenders, I referenced

history in regards to a goaltenders peak years and compared his credentials to players who fit his same profile. Yet I will

fully admit that it is only a partial glimpse into the real story.

I would have been happy as long as the return was something I deemed to be fair.

I respect your logic and thought proccesses a lot. You are very analytical in your aproach to these threads. I'm with you on the cap. How the hell did it go up? I meant no disrespect. As I said before, signing Plek was the safe route this year. It makes sense. I just hope that the team can find a way to break through tough teams.

As far as Price goes. I really hope to be wearing my Price jersey very soon. I spent good money on that baby, and I have never had a jersey with a name on it. It's the only one I've ever owned! He will be great. I just hope it's as a Canadien for the next 5 years, not San Jose, Edmonton or Calgary.

[Wamsley01]

I respect your logic and thought proccesses a lot. You are very analytical in your aproach to these threads. I'm with you on the cap. How the hell did it go up? I meant no disrespect. As I said before, signing Plek was the safe route this year. It makes sense. I just hope that the team can find a way to break through tough teams.

As far as Price goes. I really hope to be wearing my Price jersey very soon. I spent good money on that baby, and I have never had a jersey with a name on it. It's the only one I've ever owned! He will be great. I just hope it's as a Canadien for the next 5 years, not San Jose, Edmonton or Calgary.

Thanks HabNut.

I felt like an outcast wearing my Price jersey in Montreal during the Conference Finals.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Wamsley01

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I remember Wamsley's position on the new core and respectfully disagreeing with it then - but also conceding that it certainly was a defensible, well-thought-out position. Wamsley gets a busload of respect from me in general, and specifically for being willing to critically re-evaluate his earlier argument in light of subsequent events. He is a true student of the game and an all-time great poster on this site.

As for the cap: I've watched it for long enough now to have concluded that it's actually a bigger mistake to be too conservative than too bold in the cap system. The first inkling was when we didn't sign Jason Arnott at something like $4 mil because we were worried about the cap hit - a decision I've regretted ever since. And just this spring the Stanley Cup Finals featured two of the WORST cap management organizations in the entire league. That pretty much says it all.

[Wamsley01]

I remember Wamsley's position on the new core and respectfully disagreeing with it then - but also conceding that it certainly was a defensible, well-thought-out position. Wamsley gets a busload of respect from me in general, and specifically for being willing to critically re-evaluate his earlier argument in light of subsequent events. He is a true student of the game and an all-time great poster on this site.

As for the cap: I've watched it for long enough now to have concluded that it's actually a bigger mistake to be too conservative than too bold in the cap system. The first inkling was when we didn't sign Jason Arnott at something like $4 mil because we were worried about the cap hit - a decision I've regretted ever since. And just this spring the Stanley Cup Finals featured two of the WORST cap management organizations in the entire league. That pretty much says it all.

Thank CC.

I have come to the same conclusion after watching multiple teams wiggle out from their cap mistakes with relative ease.

[saskhab]

Thank CC.

I have come to the same conclusion after watching multiple teams wiggle out from their cap mistakes with relative ease.

It helps a lot when the cap rises. And it's natural state is to rise. It didn't rise last year, which set off alarm bells, but it's back up $2.6m this year in a down year economically. At this rate, Plekanec is a $5m cap hit in 4 years, but it's a $70m cap.

[Wamsley01]

It helps a lot when the cap rises. And it's natural state is to rise. It didn't rise last year, which set off alarm bells, but it's back up $2.6m this year in a down year economically. At this rate, Plekanec is a $5m cap hit in 4 years, but it's a $70m cap.

And to think, the genius of Gary Bettman turned down a $42M flat cap and wiped out a season in order to link it to revenues.

So instead of a $42M top end, he could have a $42M floor in 4 years.

[brobin]

There are 30 professional management teams running NHL clubs. They are not all equal in quality. All I am saying is that we have not had a true sniff at the cup since 93, so I think its fair to questions their decisions. Isn't that why we have a forum. It doesn't mean I agree with all the critisism I see, nor that we are always right either (except me, I am always right... lol).

I mean your logic suggests that we should not questions Tremblay and Houle.. after all, they were professionals with more info then us, so surely they were making the best decisions possible.. right??? :puke:

So in the long run, I will judge the management team based on the success of the team over time, because that is what they are paid to do. i

By the way, I think there are many worse management teams in this league, but there are also better ones.

Because they are professionals , have far more information than we do and then explain their moves to the press afterward, and the reasoning is pretty much always sound. If you buy a CD and it skips, would you then assume that the company that made it is incompetent and that you know how to make CDs better than they can? Reminds me of that interview where Tom Cruise argues with the doctor/scientist and refuses to listen to him.

You raise a lot of questions about some of the moves. Would bringing up Price fast hurt his development? Is it a problem to be locked into two 5'11 centers? If we trade Halak, what are the odds we get trapped with a busted Price? Maybe Price needs a vet to tutor him? ...

Do you really think Gauthier and his staff haven't asked themselves all of these questions and hundreds others before making these moves? Using a lot more to go on than we have, they put a lot more thought and effort into it than we do. They know that we're now locked into a small core and they know that that could be a problem. But they considered the alternatives, the cap, who's going to ready when, and other variables and decided that this was the wisest option. Who is some random fan who doesn't even know Montreal's cap situation to argue that Gauthier overlooked an issue or two? Every downside we bring up, Gauthier already considered.

Questioning is alright but the fans go beyond that. They act as if Gauthier is just another fan like them except that he's the one with the job. We don't have each quarter of the fan base ripping every four moves in turn, we have three quarters of the fan base ripping every significant move.

[saskhab]

And to think, the genius of Gary Bettman turned down a $42M flat cap and wiped out a season in order to link it to revenues.

So instead of a $42M top end, he could have a $42M floor in 4 years.

Well, yeah, I suppose, but he'd have another lockout at the first possible juncture. It's more likely in that situation than the current one by a long shot. The players bitch a lot about escrow... could you imagine if there salaries had not rose at all in the past 5 years?

[BTH]

There are 30 professional management teams running NHL clubs. They are not all equal in quality. All I am saying is that we have not had a true sniff at the cup since 93, so I think its fair to questions their decisions. Isn't that why we have a forum. It doesn't mean I agree with all the critisism I see, nor that we are always right either (except me, I am always right... lol).

I mean your logic suggests that we should not questions Tremblay and Houle.. after all, they were professionals with more info then us, so surely they were making the best decisions possible.. right??? :puke:

So in the long run, I will judge the management team based on the success of the team over time, because that is what they are paid to do. i

By the way, I think there are many worse management teams in this league, but there are also better ones.

Houle and Milbury aren't typical cases. They were professionals but they were (arguably) the worst at their jobs ever.

Like I said, I have no problem with questioning ("Why did they do this? This seems like it would have been much wiser."). I have a problem with the general assumption passed around the fan base that management is totally incompetent and actually understands less about hockey than the fans do. This assumption maybe isn't that visible on this board but that is because we're a really small percentage of Habs fans and we must all have an above average interest in hockey to come post regularly on a message board. We don't represent "the average Joe Habs fans."

Judging management based on the success of a team but is a decent rule but, of course, it can't be followed blindly. You need to find individual moves that you find completely indefensible - not moves that appear bad in hindsight, but situations where the thinking seemed all wrong at the time.

I didn't like the Carbo firing, Gomez trade or Moore trade at the time these choices were made but I've understood Gainey/Gauthier's reasoning on every other move they've made (off the top of my head) and so I do not judge them too harshly. Gainey certainly can't be held fully responsible for some of the horrible bad luck (/unforeseeable problems) that arose during his tenure. He had a Five-Year Plan; after 5 years, we were set to contend for the Cup. I'm not sure what happened after that but I can't totally blame Gainey for it.

Anyway, for me what's important is trying to understand management's decisions instead of instantly ripping them when they surprise you.