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My comments weren't directed at anyone in particular. I was just pointing out that some people come off as though they would rather be proven correct than to win games. I just can't understand a lose now and win later attitude. I really doubt that anything less than a Cup final appearance will change the plans of the Canadiens.

Oh, and Koz, we're on the same side here. I agree the people praising Gainey on Tuesday are just as ridiculous as people bashing him tonight. At least on Tuesday, a win was being used to back up the argument.

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I really, honestly think people are overreacting to the Carbo firing. And I think that a lot of this may have to do with the mystique we've constructed around Carbonneau. Ever since he left, Habs fans have been thinking of him as the inevitable coach of the Habs some day; and when Gainey brought him in, it seemed as though destiny was unfolding as it should, and we all assumed that Carbo would become our Lindy Ruff - definitive of the franchise for years to come. Honestly, how much of our traumatized reaction really derives from the dissonance between the firing and this mystique, rather than any serious assessment of Carbo's performance as coach?

BTH says Carbo should be our 'number one candidate.' Why, exactly? Two of his three years with the Habs were characterized by disastrous conflicts with veterans and cruddy on-ice results. Even last season, he had no answers when the going got tough in the playoffs; and he had no apparent answers this season either. Wamsely, you yourself were arguing that you couldn't see any discernable system or any coherence to the team a few days before the firing, and explicitly suggesting Carbo might have to go. Yet now you're traumatized?

Yes, the timing was surprising. But let's not make a mountain out of a molehill. It could just be the result of Gainey waiting until he was sure of his decision and had all the ducks lined up for the move. If anything, this move was too late - and if so, that would be more characteristic of Gainey's at-times plodding approach than we'd think at first glance.

Whatever his virtues, Carbo lost the room. Once that happens, it's over. The idea of 'cleaning house' to protect the coach is simply crazy. You have to replace the players you lose. Keeping Carbonneau and 'cleaning house' would most likely have meant years and years of rebuilding. No good. Besides, Gainey is still in a position to selectively purge if he has to. Carbo's firing does not affect that, while it *does* increase the odds of being able to re-sign players he wants to re-sign.

I think we all need to chill, recognize that we did not just fire Scotty Bowman and that there are plenty of coaches out there at least as qualified as Carbo (including Gainey), and give Bob time to implement his system with this team.

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Sometimes I wonder about this team...

They beat San Jose, and then they lose to the Islanders. Amazing really - Montreal's probablem is that year after year they simply adjust their game to match their opponent. The team still needs to find its own identity, a style of play, and force opponents to react. Too often (read always) Montreal reacts and plays to the style or tempo dictated by their opponent.

That said, the Islanders a young team with nothing to lose and everything to prove, and they sure did. Tavares will look great playing with Okoposo.

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I've read every post from pages 4-6 and I have to agree with most of you...this Carbonneau firing is beginning to look very bad...it's not like the Edmonton win was a definitive statement by any means. I don't think it matters if you put Jean Beliveau, the ghost of the rocket, or Stone Cold Steve Austin after some steveweisers back there....the fact of the matter is this: THIS TEAM CAN'T PLAY 60 MINUTES OF HOCKEY. Gainey got rid of Carbonneau to save his own behind; however, I think with a few more losses...the sky will be falling down in Montreal again and Gainey's ass will be above the burner. Instead of pointing fingers here there and everywhere, why don't we look at the bigger picture and point at the "BOB" that so many of you on here TRUST. How can you trust him if he himself can't manage to get a team with so much talent going? This team reminds me of the leafs a few years ago...dance with the best of them, lose to the worst of them.

Now...On the game

Price looked outstanding

tom the bomb and stewart...god bless them

this game made me realize how much the PP would hurt next year if Kovalev were to not return

I love how the crowd isn't putting up with the lackluster play and the Boo Birds are live and well

wtf is with the Ole chant when we are losing?...are people that drunk? its a Thursday night game for god sakes!

i'm upset with the fact that they lost....but maybe it will be a reality check to them

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Man these guys suck. Coaching changes, strategies, X''s and O's aren't going to fix the character, leadership and work ethic problems with this lazy bunch. It's been the same for years.

The habs have a playoff game against the worst team in the league who is also one player down and they play hard for 10 minutes? 40 shots against by the worst team in the league. Nice effort guys.

You have the toughest guy in the league riding the bench, so to change the momentum a couple of players step up and get destroyed. Momentum changes allright, normally the other way. That's why Laraque is valuable in the lineup.

Defensivley was pathetic again, when will they realize it's ok to cover the guy in the slot? Komi, on the Pk don't just stand there, cover someone.

Offensively they are soft, unwilling to go to the net, pass up on shots. A 2 minute 5 on 3 and they get 1 scoring chance. That is pathetic.

At least Price and Kostopolous showed up.

Blow out on Saturday, 5-1 Devils, 50 shots against.

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The one thing I noticed about the habs, is their lack of first passes.

They do this stupid drop back passes to each other in the defensive zone which put the puck reciever in such a bad position because the other teams forecheck. The habs need to learn from this, work on getting that first pass out, get back to the firewagon hockey that made them such a threat.

Also, hire a slapshot coach for the defencemen, I swear they miss the net 3 out of 5 shots, looking at you here Komi.

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I really, honestly think people are overreacting to the Carbo firing. And I think that a lot of this may have to do with the mystique we've constructed around Carbonneau. Ever since he left, Habs fans have been thinking of him as the inevitable coach of the Habs some day; and when Gainey brought him in, it seemed as though destiny was unfolding as it should, and we all assumed that Carbo would become our Lindy Ruff - definitive of the franchise for years to come. Honestly, how much of our traumatized reaction really derives from the dissonance between the firing and this mystique, rather than any serious assessment of Carbo's performance as coach?

BTH says Carbo should be our 'number one candidate.' Why, exactly? Two of his three years with the Habs were characterized by disastrous conflicts with veterans and cruddy on-ice results. Even last season, he had no answers when the going got tough in the playoffs; and he had no apparent answers this season either. Wamsely, you yourself were arguing that you couldn't see any discernable system or any coherence to the team a few days before the firing, and explicitly suggesting Carbo might have to go. Yet now you're traumatized?

Yes, the timing was surprising. But let's not make a mountain out of a molehill. It could just be the result of Gainey waiting until he was sure of his decision and had all the ducks lined up for the move. If anything, this move was too late - and if so, that would be more characteristic of Gainey's at-times plodding approach than we'd think at first glance.

Whatever his virtues, Carbo lost the room. Once that happens, it's over. The idea of 'cleaning house' to protect the coach is simply crazy. You have to replace the players you lose. Keeping Carbonneau and 'cleaning house' would most likely have meant years and years of rebuilding. No good. Besides, Gainey is still in a position to selectively purge if he has to. Carbo's firing does not affect that, while it *does* increase the odds of being able to re-sign players he wants to re-sign.

I think we all need to chill, recognize that we did not just fire Scotty Bowman and that there are plenty of coaches out there at least as qualified as Carbo (including Gainey), and give Bob time to implement his system with this team.

I don't want to clean house to protect Carbo, I want to clean house to protect the next coach. We have a team that consistently quits on coaches. While none of those coaches were perfect, we can't have this culture in the room continue. We don't need to dump 15 players, but we need to dump 2 or 3. We need to bring in the right kind of leadership and send a message that this behavior is not acceptable.

I have never been a huge fan of Carbo, in fact I have been accused of bashing him in previous years, but I am tired of this teams core bunch of babies. There is an attitude on this team that when they don't like a coaching decision they can pout or complain to Gainey. At some point, Gainey has to say "here ya go, its a ticket out of town.. bye bye".

There are not too many members on this team that can look in the mirror and say "I have been doing my job 100%, I don't make mistakes, I deserve a better coach". :)

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1 point is very good for being dominated by the Isles at home.

That is why the boo birds were back.

Boo birds are unpredictable. Right now they are targetting the team which

is a good thing. Next thing it will be a player who will make one costly mistake

making him responsable for all the frustration held by everything that happened.

Bad side

Booing Streit is stupid. The guy always been respectful and classy to this town.

If they boo Brodeur it's a complete lack of class. He's a quebecer and he is on the

reach of breaking a record that a Colorado Avalanche player reached. I wish the

habs win and he does it elsewhere but if the Habs lose, please pay the men some respect.

Respect for the game.

It's our national sport.

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well now the players will see how gainey responds to a loss.

Some analyst on the radio was talking about Carbo and saying, he tried every trick in the book with those guys. He was hard on them, he was nice to them, he took them bowling, he bag skated them, he benched them, he took them off the PP if they didn't play hard, he rewarded guys who worked hard to send a message, etc. " Nothing worked with many on the Habs. This should be a huge concern to Gainey. He is just starting over as mister nice guy, then he will have to bench one, then the cycle continues. At some point, its the players, or the team culture. Its not like Carbo was one of these coaches that only used the Whip.. he tried everything.

Perhaps what will come out of this is that Gainey will finally see that this team is just not good enough, not tough enough, etc. At some point, he has to get a big, number 1 centre. He has to get a guy with Kovy's points, but without the inconsistency / attitude.

I think we have a decent group of youngsters, but they are not learning a winning attitude from the vets on this team. The stuff happening on this team would not be going on in Detroit. It would not be going on if Messier was the Captain. It would not be going on in NJ. It doesn't mean we will always win, but we will have better effort, which leads to more wins and fewer crap games.

I was disappointed in Koivu's comments after the game. He blatherede on about not knowing what to do or why they can't play better. I wanted to hear him say "we sucked. That was unacceptable. Us players need to wake up and play with the urgency needed to win from the drop of the puck til the final whistle. WE WILL PLAY BETTER AND HARDER ON SATURDAY!"

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I really, honestly think people are overreacting to the Carbo firing. And I think that a lot of this may have to do with the mystique we've constructed around Carbonneau. Ever since he left, Habs fans have been thinking of him as the inevitable coach of the Habs some day; and when Gainey brought him in, it seemed as though destiny was unfolding as it should, and we all assumed that Carbo would become our Lindy Ruff - definitive of the franchise for years to come. Honestly, how much of our traumatized reaction really derives from the dissonance between the firing and this mystique, rather than any serious assessment of Carbo's performance as coach?

BTH says Carbo should be our 'number one candidate.' Why, exactly? Two of his three years with the Habs were characterized by disastrous conflicts with veterans and cruddy on-ice results. Even last season, he had no answers when the going got tough in the playoffs; and he had no apparent answers this season either. Wamsely, you yourself were arguing that you couldn't see any discernable system or any coherence to the team a few days before the firing, and explicitly suggesting Carbo might have to go. Yet now you're traumatized?

Yes, the timing was surprising. But let's not make a mountain out of a molehill. It could just be the result of Gainey waiting until he was sure of his decision and had all the ducks lined up for the move. If anything, this move was too late - and if so, that would be more characteristic of Gainey's at-times plodding approach than we'd think at first glance.

Whatever his virtues, Carbo lost the room. Once that happens, it's over. The idea of 'cleaning house' to protect the coach is simply crazy. You have to replace the players you lose. Keeping Carbonneau and 'cleaning house' would most likely have meant years and years of rebuilding. No good. Besides, Gainey is still in a position to selectively purge if he has to. Carbo's firing does not affect that, while it *does* increase the odds of being able to re-sign players he wants to re-sign.

I think we all need to chill, recognize that we did not just fire Scotty Bowman and that there are plenty of coaches out there at least as qualified as Carbo (including Gainey), and give Bob time to implement his system with this team.

Well, I don't think he's the greatest coach in the world, I just think that he's the best man for the job and that we fired him without there being any better alternative out there. Carbo had three years of experience with our team and that's a huge factor - we had a stable situation with a Jack Adams nominee, who was bilingual, hopefully improving with each season. Who's out there that you'd rather have? Hartley, Crawford, Tremblay, Renney, Savard, Lever, Jarvis? Meh. Nolan? Maybe - but the language issue is a real one and it has to be taken seriously. I think Gainey's already said it would have to be a bilingual coach.

I agree with what brobin said. We don't need to clean house to protect the coach. It would be pointless to clean house period. But it was just a short-sighted and an unnecessary move by Gainey with the core of the team likely to change in the offseason. Suppose Kovalev or Koivu is gone next season - wouldn't we like to see how the new team (and a new team they would be) plays under Carbo. If they still have the same problems - sure, fire him if you have to. I'm not attached to him, there was just no need to ruin a stable situation. I don't think Gainey's the type to fire his friend in order to save his own ass but maybe he figured if they missed the playoffs, both of them would get fired anyway. *shrug* It's an unhappy situation, that's all, and I would have expected better from Gainey.

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I really, honestly think people are overreacting to the Carbo firing. And I think that a lot of this may have to do with the mystique we've constructed around Carbonneau. Ever since he left, Habs fans have been thinking of him as the inevitable coach of the Habs some day; and when Gainey brought him in, it seemed as though destiny was unfolding as it should, and we all assumed that Carbo would become our Lindy Ruff - definitive of the franchise for years to come. Honestly, how much of our traumatized reaction really derives from the dissonance between the firing and this mystique, rather than any serious assessment of Carbo's performance as coach?

BTH says Carbo should be our 'number one candidate.' Why, exactly? Two of his three years with the Habs were characterized by disastrous conflicts with veterans and cruddy on-ice results. Even last season, he had no answers when the going got tough in the playoffs; and he had no apparent answers this season either. Wamsely, you yourself were arguing that you couldn't see any discernable system or any coherence to the team a few days before the firing, and explicitly suggesting Carbo might have to go. Yet now you're traumatized?

Yes, the timing was surprising. But let's not make a mountain out of a molehill. It could just be the result of Gainey waiting until he was sure of his decision and had all the ducks lined up for the move. If anything, this move was too late - and if so, that would be more characteristic of Gainey's at-times plodding approach than we'd think at first glance.

Whatever his virtues, Carbo lost the room. Once that happens, it's over. The idea of 'cleaning house' to protect the coach is simply crazy. You have to replace the players you lose. Keeping Carbonneau and 'cleaning house' would most likely have meant years and years of rebuilding. No good. Besides, Gainey is still in a position to selectively purge if he has to. Carbo's firing does not affect that, while it *does* increase the odds of being able to re-sign players he wants to re-sign.

I think we all need to chill, recognize that we did not just fire Scotty Bowman and that there are plenty of coaches out there at least as qualified as Carbo (including Gainey), and give Bob time to implement his system with this team.

I am not traumatized. I have been behind every decision that Gainey has made, I understood the rationale, and even if I disagreed I understood the process. This came out of left field.

Carbonneau has been showing these signs for 3 seasons, the concerns I had about Carbo in 2006 are the same ones I had this season,

I was always discouraged that he could not teach the systems, the he failed to forge an identity, but when you invest 3 seasons in a coach who you groomed and you ignore his faults for 3 seasons, he leads you to a first place conference finish with the same faults how can you bail on him now?

It makes absolultely no sense. It's not like he started exhibiting these flaws since February. Go back and read these boards last November

when the habs were struggling, go back and read these boards as they collapsed in 2007. IT WAS THE SAME THING!

Gainey had accepted these inherent flaws and decided that he would mentor Carbonneau, he then comes out at the All-Star break and

says that he was his best hire, how the hell do you change your mind over 20 games? It makes no sense and that is the disturbing

thing to me. Gainey is not a reactionary man, who cares if they miss the playoffs this year, they are not going to win the Cup this season.

That has been evident for months and a reason that Gainey decided that he would not sacrifice the future at the deadline 2 weeks ago, now it is imperative he make a move with 16 games to save this season? When did the 2009 playoffs become the end game?

You cannot see that a man of logic is doing illogical things? That is what worries me, that is what makes me nervous.

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I had to go out last night and missed the 2nd and 3rd periods. I have to say this is not what I wanted to read this morning.

Can't really comment because they looked pretty good before I left. I'm terribly bummed. What did Gainey say? "The guys are trying.......They are just trying the wrong way. They want to win." are his hands already up in the air like Carbo?

WTF does that mean? They're trying? They want to win? but...............but ...........well maybe they just SUCK???????

Has this season blown up in our face or what? I'm starting to feel like it would have been better to just be crap all season for our 100th birthday and draft Tavares. We sure are playing like a last place team. Losing from the start would have been a lot easier to take then this implosion.

I wouldn't worry about Gainey signing any of our UFA's this summer because none of them are going to want to be here anyway. A disastrous season like this and everyone will want a change of scenery.

What's next years draft going to be like? any Tavares types available next year? :ninja:

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Boston has lost 11 of 13, but you don't see their fans reacting like some habs fans. It's perfectly fine to discuss, and want your team to be better, but some of you take over reacting to a new degree. We got a point, we're 5th in the conference, from the doom and gloom you'd expect us to be battling Ottawa for 12th.

I know it feels good to get it out, but we finished first in the conference last year and how'd that treat us? You think maybe going in under the radar, might actually be a good thing for the team? Having to struggle to claw and bite to get to the playoffs, could pay off in the long run.

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Has this season blown up in our face or what?

Uhhh... No... Not at all... We sit in 5th place in the East and have been winning lately, going 6-3-1. We even picked up a point in our latest game, so that's 5 of a possible 6 in our last 3.

I'm not going to lie, I'm completely shocked and embarrassed by the 'fans' this season. Never thought I would hear myself say this, but I really wish they had the loyalty and devotion of the Leafs fans.

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I am not traumatized. I have been behind every decision that Gainey has made, I understood the rationale, and even if I disagreed I understood the process. This came out of left field.

Carbonneau has been showing these signs for 3 seasons, the concerns I had about Carbo in 2006 are the same ones I had this season,

I was always discouraged that he could not teach the systems, the he failed to forge an identity, but when you invest 3 seasons in a coach who you groomed and you ignore his faults for 3 seasons, he leads you to a first place conference finish with the same faults how can you bail on him now?

It makes absolultely no sense. It's not like he started exhibiting these flaws since February. Go back and read these boards last November

when the habs were struggling, go back and read these boards as they collapsed in 2007. IT WAS THE SAME THING!

Gainey had accepted these inherent flaws and decided that he would mentor Carbonneau, he then comes out at the All-Star break and

says that he was his best hire, how the hell do you change your mind over 20 games? It makes no sense and that is the disturbing

thing to me. Gainey is not a reactionary man, who cares if they miss the playoffs this year, they are not going to win the Cup this season.

That has been evident for months and a reason that Gainey decided that he would not sacrifice the future at the deadline 2 weeks ago, now it is imperative he make a move with 16 games to save this season? When did the 2009 playoffs become the end game?

You cannot see that a man of logic is doing illogical things? That is what worries me, that is what makes me nervous.

But I don't see that. It could be as simple as Gainey finally concluding exactly that, indeed, Carbonneau as a coach was systematically failing to correct, and was maybe incapable of correcting, those 'inherent flaws' you talk about. It's one thing to mentor someone patiently along. But at some point you can legitimately conclude that it's not working.

So why now?

I suspect that 2009 was the turning point on this question because the expectations had changed. Gainey, just like everyone else, figured this team *was* capable of going deep. Under Carbo, it massively regressed - and this was not acceptable from a GM who has been thinking all along in terms of progression and development. Relatedly, all our core young players massively regressed as well. It's one thing to lambaste the vets for being uncoachable. But if Pleks, Higgins, Komisarek, and the Kostitsyns are all regressing as well, what's left to cling to in the coach's defence? He's not getting the most out of the vets...he's no longer getting anything out of the young players...the team is losing and wildly inconsistent, has no system and no defensive coverage...hmmm.

As for his declaration that Carbo was his best-ever decision, look, that may have been sincere. But it may also have been a typical managerial attempt to defend a beleaguered coach. GMs always project an implacable support for their coaches, right until the moment they fire them. They have to do that, because if a team is beginning to turn on the coach you want to try to stem the tide. But once they do turn on him, there's no longer any point in keeping up the pretense.

So I don't think it's illogical at all. The assertion that it *is* illogical works from the prior assumption I talked about in my earlier post - that Carbonneau just WAS going to be Gainey's coach for all time, regardless of his competence, player feelings, player development, or on-ice results. But we're the ones reading that assumption into things. It turns out Carbo was a coach like any other coach, no more indispensable to Gainey's vision than Claude Julien was, or Pat Burns was to Serge Savard's. Any other organization would have fired Carbo well before now. Turns out Gainey's Habs are just like any other organization. Nothing to lose sleep about.

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I am not traumatized. I have been behind every decision that Gainey has made, I understood the rationale, and even if I disagreed I understood the process. This came out of left field.

This is exactly how I feel. I'll defend every move Gainey's ever made, and even when they were moves I wouldn't have done on my own, I can always understand his logic. He always comes out in his press conference and gives you all the best reasons. But this one I don't understand and don't agree with.

Boston has lost 11 of 13, but you don't see their fans reacting like some habs fans. It's perfectly fine to discuss, and want your team to be better, but some of you take over reacting to a new degree. We got a point, we're 5th in the conference, from the doom and gloom you'd expect us to be battling Ottawa for 12th.

I know it feels good to get it out, but we finished first in the conference last year and how'd that treat us? You think maybe going in under the radar, might actually be a good thing for the team? Having to struggle to claw and bite to get to the playoffs, could pay off in the long run.

Well, speaking for myself, I'm only upset about the Carbo firing, not about our team's chances this season. We have 14 games left so I assume we need 8 wins in order to make the playoffs. With Gainey coaching, Price finding his game, Tanguay coming back from injury and a very easy schedule ahead of us, I trust that we can make the playoffs.

I don't know what I predicted at the start of the year, but I know I had a gut feeling we'd finish 6th in the East, below all expectations, and then win the Cup so I'm jumping on this theory now. The Cup part of I've been predicting this 05 I think so it's definitely coming true. Right?

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Boston has lost 11 of 13, but you don't see their fans reacting like some habs fans. It's perfectly fine to discuss, and want your team to be better, but some of you take over reacting to a new degree. We got a point, we're 5th in the conference, from the doom and gloom you'd expect us to be battling Ottawa for 12th.

I know it feels good to get it out, but we finished first in the conference last year and how'd that treat us? You think maybe going in under the radar, might actually be a good thing for the team? Having to struggle to claw and bite to get to the playoffs, could pay off in the long run.

You are right I suppose. I try to be glass half full and optimistic most of the time, but this is hard to take. It's been a crazy ass season and to be honest I felt the balloon pop and start letting air out slowly when Komi got punched out by Lucic. I know at that moment something very negative happened to the spirit of the team that was still mentally fragile from the two play-off rounds last year.

Somebody get these guys a shrink and sign me up for a session or two while you are at it. I don't even know what I think anymore. Just win an unexpected cup so we can sweep all of this under the rug. I know.......... how pathetic

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.

I don't know what I predicted at the start of the year, but I know I had a gut feeling we'd finish 6th in the East, below all expectations, and then win the Cup so I'm jumping on this theory now. The Cup part of I've been predicting this 05 I think so it's definitely coming true. Right?

I like this theory. It should be in the playoffs or bust thread. I hope it comes true. ^_^

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Gainey's take on his team:

http://dailyhab-it.blogspot.com/

Scroll down to the entry from yesterday.

Nice, sympathetic analysis of his players. Basically, he is convinced his players mean well and want to win - which is presumably why he refused to trade a raft of them - but are utterly lacking self-confidence and syncronicity. So they panic when one mistake is made, which leads to more mistakes. In short, a sort of hyper-slump. He wants to rebuild their game from the basics on out.

Obviously he didn't think Guy could do it.

Again: chill out, calm down. He has not lost his mind. He has not suddenly panicked. Boivin is not suddenly controlling him. Let's see if Bob can rebuild the team game. That's the issue now.

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Believe me, I do my fair share of yelling at the TV during games. ^_^

I wish the team would get mean and angry. I love seeing the third lines agression and Stewarts emotion when he stands up for a teamate.

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Again: chill out, calm down. He has not lost his mind. He has not suddenly panicked. Boivin is not suddenly controlling him. Let's see if Bob can rebuild the team game. That's the issue now.

He hasn't lost his mind or panicked and he knows what he's doing. But I still think he made the first horrid decision of his term. Both sentences can be true.

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He hasn't lost his mind or panicked and he knows what he's doing. But I still think he made the first horrid decision of his term. Both sentences can be true.

Fair enough, but since Carbo was clearly no hell as a coach, since Gainey still can dump guys like Kovalev or Koivu if he wants, since this decision *probably* improves the likelihood of re-signing desired players and attracting new ones, and since there is really nothing abnormal about firing coaches in today's NHL, I see no obvious reason for thinking this a 'horrid' decision. If anything, it should have been done sooner, to give the team more time to get its act together for the playoffs.

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