Commandant Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Pacioretty wishes he could hit a one timer with the velocity stammer can. They look like the same player on paper this season, but over the long term, Stamkos will take off in point production, thus making him worth the pricetag associated. Stamkos was a sixty goal centre. Then Cooper moved him to wing. He hasn't produced the same at wing, but yet cooper insists on putting him at wing. Its the single most asinine decision I've ever seen from an NHL head coach. And I've lived through Therrien coaching the Habs twice. Add to that you have a prospect with a ton of potential as a playmaking winger that you are also dicking around and it makes it even stupider. You have 2/3rds of an elite NHL line in your system, you are gonna lose one for pennies on the dollar and the other for nothing... all cause the coach is acting like a petulant child with his insistence on doing things his way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) Toronto's farm system is going to get a boost. They have 2 picks in each of the first 3 rounds and are likely going to add to that when they dump UFAs at the deadline. Their first rounder will be top 5 (so one of Matthews, Puuljujarvi, Laine, Tkaczuk, Chychrun, Sergachev, Nylander, Dubois, Juolevi), plus a mid to late rounder depending on where Pittsburgh finishes and drafts. Next year you can count on another top 5 pick (top 10 at worst) and likely the year after as well. They will also most likely have multiple picks going into those drafts if they continue to trade UFAs and players that don't have a long term future with the team. Edited February 12, 2016 by John B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Stamkos was a sixty goal centre. Then Cooper moved him to wing. He hasn't produced the same at wing, but yet cooper insists on putting him at wing. Its the single most asinine decision I've ever seen from an NHL head coach. And I've lived through Therrien coaching the Habs twice. Add to that you have a prospect with a ton of potential as a playmaking winger that you are also dicking around and it makes it even stupider. You have 2/3rds of an elite NHL line in your system, you are gonna lose one for pennies on the dollar and the other for nothing... all cause the coach is acting like a petulant child with his insistence on doing things his way. yeah I agree with that, he belongs at center or is this one of those fancy stats decisions. I don't know why you want to piss off your franchise player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Toronto's farm system is going to get a boost. They have 2 picks in each of the first 3 rounds and are likely going to add to that when they dump UFAs at the deadline. Their first rounder will be top 5 (so one of Matthews, Puuljujarvi, Laine, Tkaczuk, Chychrun, Sergachev, Nylander, Dubois, Juolevi), plus a mid to late rounder depending on where Pittsburgh finishes and drafts. Next year you can count on another top 5 pick (top 10 at worst) and likely the year after as well. They will also most likely have multiple picks going into those drafts if they continue to trade UFAs and players that don't have a long term future with the team. Sure thats great and all by the time any of those picks is an impact defenceman in the NHL, Stamkos is on the wrong side of 30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Have no fear, Leafs will draft some more kids like Schenn, Gauthier, Biggs, Kadri, etc again and miss out on real impact players, it is the Leafs after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Have no fear, Leafs will draft some more kids like Schenn, Gauthier, Biggs, Kadri, etc again and miss out on real impact players, it is the Leafs after all. As much as I hate the Leafs, I like their chances of sipping out of Lord Stanley long before we get another whiff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Not sure why? The Leafs are tossing huge amounts of cash at high profile Coach and Mgmt, still have no goalie, no defense and the track record of most dysfunctional franchise shouldn't give their fans a whole lot of real hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Canadiens seem to be a pretty dysfunctional organization as well over the past decade or so. At least the Leafs have a plan to rebuild and has made that clear to the fans and any prospective players that want to join the team. What's Bergevin's plan? He hasn't made any significant moves at all this season. What's his plan going into the trade deadline? Is he going to be a seller and clear some cap space for next season to bring in the help necessary to put this team over the top? Or is he going to try to make a push for the playoffs by adding a rental or two with the hopes that Price will be back and able to carry this team on his wonky knee? It just seems like the Habs are no man's land right now and that Bergevin has no idea what to do. If he's going to sell, then start selling...like right now. They are only 11 points out of last place and 2 points outside of a top 10 pick (which has more trade value than a playoff pick). If he's making a run (even though it's an exercise in futility with or without Price), then start adding the help this team needs. They are only 5 points out of a wildcard spot. Make a decision already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Not sure why? The Leafs are tossing huge amounts of cash at high profile Coach and Mgmt, still have no goalie, no defense and the track record of most dysfunctional franchise shouldn't give their fans a whole lot of real hope. Don, you must not be paying attention to what's going on there. They have probably the best minor league prospects for the last two or three years running. I am very high on what they have done as far as as a management team. Babcock, Shanahan, Hunter etc. to name a few. They are in the best position money wise to bring in any and several of top free agents of their choice. They are sitting on a nice draft, with extra choices, maybe more to come, with a reasonable likelyhood of getting a top choice. They have kept some core players. Management does not come under cap, so the richer teams have a leg up and can afford the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 If he's going to sell, then start selling...like right now. They are only 11 points out of last place and 2 points outside of a top 10 pick (which has more trade value than a playoff pick). If he's making a run (even though it's an exercise in futility with or without Price), then start adding the help this team needs. They are only 5 points out of a wildcard spot. Make a decision already. The cap makes it hard for buying teams, especially with so many of them up as tight as they are against it. The selling type of trades - short of Toronto dealing Phaneuf for next-to-nothing - won't start for at least another week or so. For some teams, if they buy now, they're close to being capped out at the deadline. If they wait two weeks, they may be able to add the player they want now plus another guy. If that seems a bit strange, consider Montreal's numbers from the cap sheet. Their cap space as of today shows that they can add a player making a bit over $4.8 million (full season). Their cap space on deadline day - with no roster changes between now and then - shows that they can add a player making almost $6.85 million (full season). 2.5 weeks of difference results in the ability to add an extra $2 M in salary. For teams that are really cap-strapped (that don't have the type of money available that Montreal does), waiting to add that rental player or two can make a whole world of difference. That's why the seller deals aren't happening yet and probably won't for another 10 days or so at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 BlueKross have you seen the last 50 yrs of Hockey in Hogtown? Core players? Reilly is it isn't it, rest is easily replaceable. The three you mentioned; Shanahan-Hunter are rookie NHL mgmt. and Babcock had done nothing special since hall of fame Wings retired. They will screw up rebuild, don't worry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Right now, at this specific moment, it is indeed unsettling how well-positioned the Leafs seem to be. Realistic shot at signing Stamkos AND at drafting Matthews, all within the same 2-week span. O'Reilly as defensive stud. Nystrom widely regarded as a high-end prospect. I'm just saying - they seem to be FINALLY taking the right approach to rebuilding, and their total suckage is putting them in a position to pile up elite assets. We are miles ahead of them in terms of our existing core. But project 2-3 years down the line? Doesn't look so good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) I agree with you CC. The Habs remind a bit of the Leafs from the last few years with a couple big differences (Price and Subban). Like the Leafs the Habs relied on a winger to be the go to guy for offense up front (Pacioretty - Kessel), and a 2nd line center to center the first line (Plekanec - Bozak). They also have a slow to develop forward that has yet to break out (Galchenyuk - Kadri) and the same on defense (Beaulieu - Gardiner). Prior to the Leafs beginning their rebuild, their prospect pool was similar to the Habs' prospect pool in that there were no sure things just potential. Both teams also have/had bad contracts that are/were proving hard to move (Bourque, Parenteau, Desharnais, Eller, Emelin - Clarkson, Lupul, Bernier, Phaneuf, Kessel). While the Habs have the advantage with Price and Subban, the Leafs have the advantage when it comes to free agency. It seems like nobody wants to sign with the Habs, while everyone of note are/were linked in someway to the Leafs (when they're not in rebuild mode). Leafs might win a cup before the Habs unless things change in a hurry. Edited February 13, 2016 by John B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 I agree with you CC. The Habs remind a bit of the Leafs from the last few years with a couple big differences (Price and Subban). Like the Leafs the Habs relied on a winger to be the go to guy for offense up front (Pacioretty - Kessel), and a 2nd line center to center the first line (Plekanec - Bozak). They also have a slow to develop forward that has yet to break out (Galchenyuk - Kadri) and the same on defense (Beaulieu - Gardiner). Prior to the Leafs beginning their rebuild, their prospect pool was similar to the Habs' prospect pool in that there were no sure things just potential. Both teams also have/had bad contracts that are/were proving hard to move (Bourque, Parenteau, Desharnais, Eller, Emelin - Clarkson, Lupul, Bernier, Phaneuf, Kessel). While the Habs have the advantage with Price and Subban, the Leafs have the advantage when it comes to free agency. It seems like nobody wants to sign with the Habs, while everyone of note are/were linked in someway to the Leafs (when they're not in rebuild mode). Leafs might win a cup before the Habs unless things change in a hurry. Well, I disagree with the last part. We have had no problem signing UFAs in recent years. Just last year we bagged the most desirable defender on the market.That's a myth left over from the days of parsimonious ownership and Houle's incompetence. Other than that, your post is good. It really is going to be on Zoot Suit to make the moves this summer that transform this core from pretender to contender. Otherwise we may well be surpassed by the Leafs within a couple of years. Conversely, if MB does make the right moves, we could be in for a 'golden age' of Habs-Leafs battles...which would be a hell of a ride. F****ng Leafs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbhatt Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Don't forget about Mitch Marner when talking Leafs blue-chip prospects...they could easily be formidable in as little as 2 or 3 seasons with a bit of luck and the right moves. http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/juniors/gotta-see-it-marner-scores-hockey-goal-of-the-year/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Really though, what would you have Bergevin do in this situation? It's not like he is going to patch this version minus Price up enough to seriously make a run at the playoffs. He is managing accordingly in my mind, as DlBalr indicated, the moves will be made by teams when this season's outcome is more determined, closer to the dealine. It doesn't make Bergevin incompetent if he is positioning himself to 1. Not spend assets on this sinking ship season. 2. Acquire a player like the Petry deal from another team(full scale seller) for next year and beyond. 3. Most importantly, maximize cap for draft day/trade day/UFA day. I maintain he has sat on his assests, not his hands/ass and knows full well that without Price, this season is lost, and he is thinking next season, and staying the course on making the Habs a perennial contender, by building the team to support the great core the team has for the next couple seasons. He said in the presser about the slide, that "we will go through this together as a team" and at this point, all the arm chair gm's demanding his action or head, are just Leaf management wanna be's, sometimes you need to hold the course, instead of change for the sake of change. If there is a deal at the deadline to acquire a young core piece, or at least a young player that can be signed or is signed for a bit, for pieces he no longer deems a part of the Habs future he will pull the trigger, if not, then nothing lost, just wait for draft and UFA time, and see what he can do to improve the club's scoring and defense. We need to stand pat and back him as fans, I don't want to see management and coaching changes every time there is a fan screaming I AM DISAPPOINTED! I expect to see UFA'a like Weise, Flash and Gilbert traded if there is a market for them to help at the draft table, and I can see Gilbert re-signed here next year for depth D. I like what Bergevin is doing in the face of this adversity, and that is staying cool, taking his lumps, and positioning the team as best he can for next season. Stop bitching. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Right now, at this specific moment, it is indeed unsettling how well-positioned the Leafs seem to be. Realistic shot at signing Stamkos AND at drafting Matthews, all within the same 2-week span. O'Reilly as defensive stud. Nystrom widely regarded as a high-end prospect. I'm just saying - they seem to be FINALLY taking the right approach to rebuilding, and their total suckage is putting them in a position to pile up elite assets. We are miles ahead of them in terms of our existing core. But project 2-3 years down the line? Doesn't look so good. They look a lot like the Oilers right now. Sure the forwards are good, but 1 defenceman and no goalie isn't gonna cut it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Really though, what would you have Bergevin do in this situation? It's not like he is going to patch this version minus Price up enough to seriously make a run at the playoffs. He is managing accordingly in my mind, as DlBalr indicated, the moves will be made by teams when this season's outcome is more determined, closer to the dealine. It doesn't make Bergevin incompetent if he is positioning himself to 1. Not spend assets on this sinking ship season. 2. Acquire a player like the Petry deal from another team(full scale seller) for next year and beyond. 3. Most importantly, maximize cap for draft day/trade day/UFA day. I maintain he has sat on his assests, not his hands/ass and knows full well that without Price, this season is lost, and he is thinking next season, and staying the course on making the Habs a perennial contender, by building the team to support the great core the team has for the next couple seasons. He said in the presser about the slide, that "we will go through this together as a team" and at this point, all the arm chair gm's demanding his action or head, are just Leaf management wanna be's, sometimes you need to hold the course, instead of change for the sake of change. If there is a deal at the deadline to acquire a young core piece, or at least a young player that can be signed or is signed for a bit, for pieces he no longer deems a part of the Habs future he will pull the trigger, if not, then nothing lost, just wait for draft and UFA time, and see what he can do to improve the club's scoring and defense. We need to stand pat and back him as fans, I don't want to see management and coaching changes every time there is a fan screaming I AM DISAPPOINTED! I expect to see UFA'a like Weise, Flash and Gilbert traded if there is a market for them to help at the draft table, and I can see Gilbert re-signed here next year for depth D. I like what Bergevin is doing in the face of this adversity, and that is staying cool, taking his lumps, and positioning the team as best he can for next season. Stop bitching. KoRP, I tend to agree. 'Sang froid' is the phrase I keep using about Bergevin. Apart from the dubious Kassian case, he has avoided making short-term moves to salvage a lost cause; and while fans can legitimately complain that he has been too slow to fix long-running problems (the hole at C, the need for another W who can score), I don't think enough of us are factoring in that organizational damage that could have been done if we'd had a GM (or owner) who tried to make 'bold moves' from a position of weakness during a crisis. The true test will come this deadline day and this summer; indeed, you could argue that we won't need to have the entire puzzle put together until deadline day of 2017. The next 12 months will ultimately determine Bergevin's legacy IMHO, not this lost season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Moves should have been made last off season. The scoring woes have been an unanswered issue for quite some time now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Moves should have been made last off season. The scoring woes have been an unanswered issue for quite some time now That's true - a valid criticism - but look at it from Bergevin's perspective. With a healthy Price, he is dealing from a position of strength, a team that is a Conference favourite; and can therefore afford to wait until the right deal materializes. I wouldn't be surprised if his plan was to try out Semin/Kassian and then pull the trigger closer to deadline day if it didn't work out. That plan is up in smoke, at least in part, because he's now a seller. But it made some sense in theory. MB recognizes that the cupboard is not exactly overflowing with blue-chip prospects, so he is (wisely) reluctant to make the big move unless he's confident it's the right move. A team with millions of stud prospects could behave in a more profligate manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 That's true - a valid criticism - but look at it from Bergevin's perspective. With a healthy Price, he is dealing from a position of strength, a team that is a Conference favourite; and can therefore afford to wait until the right deal materializes. I wouldn't be surprised if his plan was to try out Semin/Kassian and then pull the trigger closer to deadline day if it didn't work out. That plan is up in smoke, at least in part, because he's now a seller. But it made some sense in theory. MB recognizes that the cupboard is not exactly overflowing with blue-chip prospects, so he is (wisely) reluctant to make the big move unless he's confident it's the right move. A team with millions of stud prospects could behave in a more profligate manner. The window of opportunity is gradually passing by this team. I know circumstances have changed things this year, but I'm just saying we'll never see another core as good as now in our era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 That's true - a valid criticism - but look at it from Bergevin's perspective. With a healthy Price, he is dealing from a position of strength, a team that is a Conference favourite; and can therefore afford to wait until the right deal materializes. I wouldn't be surprised if his plan was to try out Semin/Kassian and then pull the trigger closer to deadline day if it didn't work out. That plan is up in smoke, at least in part, because he's now a seller. But it made some sense in theory. MB recognizes that the cupboard is not exactly overflowing with blue-chip prospects, so he is (wisely) reluctant to make the big move unless he's confident it's the right move. A team with millions of stud prospects could behave in a more profligate manner. Profligate and parsimonious...tomorrow will be "quotidian!" As in, "the quotidian bad news following this franchise." I agree, I would have a different appraisal of MB this year if we knew what he knew, assuming that the doctors told him there's a small chance of Price returning this year. That would explain away a lot of the inactivity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Toronto does seem to be well positioned for 3-4 years from now. But Buffalo's done it even better. They're going to be a force to be reckoned with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 That's true - a valid criticism - but look at it from Bergevin's perspective. With a healthy Price, he is dealing from a position of strength, a team that is a Conference favourite; and can therefore afford to wait until the right deal materializes. I wouldn't be surprised if his plan was to try out Semin/Kassian and then pull the trigger closer to deadline day if it didn't work out. That plan is up in smoke, at least in part, because he's now a seller. But it made some sense in theory. MB recognizes that the cupboard is not exactly overflowing with blue-chip prospects, so he is (wisely) reluctant to make the big move unless he's confident it's the right move. A team with millions of stud prospects could behave in a more profligate manner. A huge reason why he was forced into Semin/Kassian is that there were just no FAs available last year. Look at the forwards We had Justin Williams.... MB offered more money but he choose Washington anyway. Beleskey... I never saw him as the solution, and I still don't like the contract he got from the Bruins. Chris stewart... file him under the Semin/Kassian pile. Anaheim took the gamble, he hasn't exactly paid off either. Who else were you gonna get. This year the pool is deeper, Stamkos, Staal, Backes, Hudler, Eriksson, Okposo, Ladd, Lucic, Perron, Boedker, Thats a much deeper group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Backes would look good on the roster, what does he have left in the tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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