Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 With the cap where it is and not being expected to jump much, most think teams are not going to make big, risky moves with cap space right now. Markov should still have value similar to what Tomas Kaberle was in Toronto when he went to Boston, but he likely won't unless Montreal takes some cap back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I read today that Bergevin is talking to Guy Boucher, he's the first domino to fall to get Stamkos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I read today that Bergevin is talking to Guy Boucher, he's the first domino to fall to get Stamkos. Guy Boucher won't mean a thing when it comes to getting Stamkos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Guy Boucher won't mean a thing when it comes to getting Stamkos. Not according to the guy who made the second comment on Spector's Hockey Rumour Wrap Up today. Shit, I just gave my source away. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Do we want Stamkos? I'm asking honestly. $10 mil in a C, $9 mil in a D, and, within two years, $10 mil in a goalie - this is not a sustainable recipe. Perhaps we should be thinking more in terms of signing two quality FW at around $5 mil rather than the big name superstar. Just asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Do we want Stamkos? I'm asking honestly. $10 mil in a C, $9 mil in a D, and, within two years, $10 mil in a goalie - this is not a sustainable recipe. Perhaps we should be thinking more in terms of signing two quality FW at around $5 mil rather than the big name superstar. Just asking. If Stamkos is available, I absolutely want Stamkos. I want one player that calls 43 goals a disappointment over two guys who we will be sitting around and hoping scores 43 goals combined. The next best goal scorer on the market is going to be Andrew Ladd, who is four years older than Stamkos whose career scoring high was 26 goals. He's going to get over $6 million likely per year. If you can get Stamkos, you pay for Stamkos. Think of how much we're going to have to pay Pacioretty soon and realize that Stamkos is better than him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Do we want Stamkos? Yes. Acquiring an elite goal scorer in the prime of his career, playing a position that has been coveted by this organization for decades, all while not having to give up any assets other than cap space should be a no brainer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Absolutely. Who knows what can happen when Price's deal is up? The next two years are "the window." Stamkos is the free agent of the decade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Perfect time to go hard after Stamkos. Bergevin can clear cap space at the deadline, then make a serious push to sign him in the offseason(hopefully). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Yes. Acquiring an elite goal scorer in the prime of his career, playing a position that has been coveted by this organization for decades, all while not having to give up any assets other than cap space should be a no brainer. Uh huh! Absolutely... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 With Stamkos, a new coach, and the guys in the system fighting for a spot, we'd look like a legitimate Cup contender going into next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 With Stamkos, a new coach, and the guys in the system fighting for a spot, we'd look like a legitimate Cup contender going into next season. I suspect we will look like contenders even if we just add a mid-range FW and maybe a #4 D-man. The combination of Price returning and a new coach giving everyone a spark will probably tee us off for a Comeback Year that the media will spin as a 'shocking' story of 2016-17. That said, yes, Stamkos would certainly make us serious contenders IF we can add him without gutting all the depth in our lineup. I see the questions as twofold: 1. How can we fit him in under the cap as it stands right now? If doing so involves giving raw rookies huge roles, then that's apt to be a sideways move. 2, How will we fit him under the cap in the medium term? Patches, Price, PK all command, or will command, huge tickets. Stamkos is an upgrade on Patches, granted; but if we let Patches walk, that still means we're short two top-6 FW. In no way am I saying there aren't solutions to either challenge. Maybe there are. But we should at least think about them, I'd imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I suspect we will look like contenders even if we just add a mid-range FW and maybe a #4 D-man. The combination of Price returning and a new coach giving everyone a spark will probably tee us off for a Comeback Year that the media will spin as a 'shocking' story of 2016-17. That said, yes, Stamkos would certainly make us serious contenders IF we can add him without gutting all the depth in our lineup. I see the questions as twofold: 1. How can we fit him in under the cap as it stands right now? If doing so involves giving raw rookies huge roles, then that's apt to be a sideways move. 2, How will we fit him under the cap in the medium term? Patches, Price, PK all command, or will command, huge tickets. Stamkos is an upgrade on Patches, granted; but if we let Patches walk, that still means we're short two top-6 FW. In no way am I saying there aren't solutions to either challenge. Maybe there are. But we should at least think about them, I'd imagine. For sure, a red herring of a post...but I'll take raw rookies over the Brian Flynn, Douglas Murray, Frankie B, DSPs and Tomas Fleischmanns of the league. The team needs to look at living with a few mistakes here and there as an investment, player development is horrible. Three rookies have become full time members the team since Therrien and MB took the helm-under the guise of "building through the draft."(Though technically, when you look at the success of the teams that fired their coaches, keeping Therrien on is certainly helping the rebuild) I'm starting to take serious issue with the player development. Rookies have to run though a veritable labyrinth to earn their post while some pretty rank veterans were and are rolled out game after game. Looking back, what the hell did Colby Armstrong do to play night after night? What about Rene Bourque? Mike Weaver? Sergei Gonchar? Travis Moen? DSP? Bryan Flynn? Even a vet that thoroughly sucked ass like Bryan Allen was given ten games to prove himself while Tinordi played three games this year before being dumped. Two and a half to be fair since his last game was six minutes TOI. Where are these losers now? Where has this philosophy landed the team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Um, the issue is cap space. It's not guys like Flynn and DSP who are eating up the salary room we'd need to retain Stamkos. It's guys like Eller, Markov, DD (OK, we sure can let him go, agreed), Plekanec, Emelin, etc.. Now, I know that a significant number of posters on here believe that you can win the Stanley Cup with 23 rookies on the roster, but serious people will need to work out with some precision which significant roster players can be replaced by cheap rookies without substantially depleting the team of exactly the kind of all-around experience and depth that you ACTUALLY require if you want to win the Cup. Maybe it can all be done with ease. Maybe it can't. All I'm saying is, we should think about it before we barrel forward and sign Stamkos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Um, the issue is cap space. It's not guys like Flynn and DSP who are eating up the salary room we'd need to retain Stamkos. It's guys like Eller, Markov, DD (OK, we sure can let him go, agreed), Plekanec, Emelin, etc.. Now, I know that a significant number of posters on here believe that you can win the Stanley Cup with 23 rookies on the roster, but serious people will need to work out with some precision which significant roster players can be replaced by cheap rookies without substantially depleting the team of exactly the kind of all-around experience and depth that you ACTUALLY require if you want to win the Cup. Maybe it can all be done with ease. Maybe it can't. All I'm saying is, we should think about it before we barrel forward and sign Stamkos.My point, especially with the cap space argument that you brought up, is that the team needs to develop young players instead of being "the Last Chance Saloon" for declining veterans. How many guys have we seen that ended their careers in Montreal over the past few seasons? It's not as if these guys turn to stone at midnight on the last game of the year, the Habs have played them despite not being good enough because the team prefers players that are washed up, but "safe" over unproven rookies. A guy like Charles Hudon has played well for a couple of seasons while getting less than a sniff while the DSPs grind away. Look at this list... Bouillon/Moen/Armstrong/Kaberle/Weaver/Gonchar/Halpern/Murray/Parros/Malhotra/Allen/Fleischmann/Semin Three rookies have made the team in four years while these guys played out the twilight of their career in Montreal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 My point, especially with the cap space argument that you brought up, is that the team needs to develop young players instead of being "the Last Chance Saloon" for declining veterans. How many guys have we seen that ended their careers in Montreal over the past few seasons? It's not as if these guys turn to stone at midnight on the last game of the year, the Habs have played them despite not being good enough because the team prefers players that are washed up, but "safe" over unproven rookies. A guy like Charles Hudon has played well for a couple of seasons while getting less than a sniff while the DSPs grind away. Look at this list... Bouillon/Moen/Armstrong/Kaberle/Weaver/Gonchar/Halpern/Murray/Parros/Malhotra/Allen/Fleischmann/Semin Three rookies have made the team in four years while these guys played out the twilight of their career in Montreal. Well, you do realize DSP is 23 years old, right? And Barberio is 25...if he hadn't come from another organization, he'd be regarded as a relatively young player, not as some bum the Habs irrationally give ice-time to. So you can add those to the list of young players who made the team. You're forgetting Bournival, too, who earned a roster spot before getting concussed. I'm also not sure that it's helpful to lump together things done under different regimes. All that does is distort our understanding of the present. Under MB, the organization clearly does like to bring young players along slowly. Maybe too slowly - that's certainly arguable. But, of course, the counter-argument is teams like Detroit, which are universally praised for allowing youth to marinade in the minors until they're fully read to step in. Prior to this season, the Bergevin regime was riding three years of success, a context in which it may well have been reasonable to take the 'slowly marinade' approach. Finally, no team brings up rookies that it does not feel are ready for prime time and just hands them roster spots. So there's that to consider too. Tinordi sat, not because the Habs hate young players, but because the Habs did not think he was better than ANYONE in our regular D-corps. If they are right about that, then failing to dress him for 50 games was hardly a mistake. It is more than possible that guys are staying in the minors because they just aren't good enough, yet. So, yes, a critique can be made, but I don't see it in nearly the black and white terms you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Weise told a reporter he wouldn't be shocked to be traded. Seems to me that if they've had contract talks, they certainly didn't go well. Also interesting to hear a player basically say (without saying) "We're not going to make the playoffs." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Chicago has two 10 million dollar players plus big money in Crawford, Hossa, Seabrook, Keith, and others. They also have like 10 players at around $1 million to 1.5 million cap hits. Thats the way to build a team. Pay for the top level elite talent. And fill in your third and fourth lines and bottom D pairs with vets who get squeezed and end up signing cheap ala Fleischmann. Its the 3.5 million for Eller and DD, the 4.1 million for Emelin. Those are the deals that kill you in this cap. Pay for elite talents, not the middle of your roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Do we want Stamkos? I'm asking honestly. $10 mil in a C, $9 mil in a D, and, within two years, $10 mil in a goalie - this is not a sustainable recipe. Perhaps we should be thinking more in terms of signing two quality FW at around $5 mil rather than the big name superstar. Just asking. Stamkos is a franchise player, we should do whatever we have to, to get him. He would be the difference is our winning a cup. I have no idea what the heck is going on in TB but someone is very stupid there, if they let him get away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I find it unbelievable how it's unfolded between TBL and stamkos. Makes you wonder, do they know something we don't, or are yzerman and cooper just plaIn stupid? Lots of question to ask. Does stamkos have lingering effects of his injury that are causing concern? Does he just not want to be there anymore? Does he just want the go home and they are concerned about his commitment? Are they just concerned that his drop in production is a new reality? Is yzerman supporting cooper because he feels stamkos has to change his game now for TBL to be successful the way bowmon made yzerman change his game 22-23 years ago? Is cooper really as dumb as MT in just sticking with the guys he knew from the minors? Stamkos is a franchise player, we should do whatever we have to, to get him. He would be the difference is our winning a cup. I have no idea what the heck is going on in TB but someone is very stupid there, if they let him get away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Chicago has two 10 million dollar players plus big money in Crawford, Hossa, Seabrook, Keith, and others. They also have like 10 players at around $1 million to 1.5 million cap hits. Thats the way to build a team. Pay for the top level elite talent. And fill in your third and fourth lines and bottom D pairs with vets who get squeezed and end up signing cheap ala Fleischmann. Its the 3.5 million for Eller and DD, the 4.1 million for Emelin. Those are the deals that kill you in this cap. Pay for elite talents, not the middle of your roster. You beat me to it. Chicago has been in cap trouble for ever, yet they came up with a formula of locking up 4 core people in Kane, Towes, Keith, and Seabrook. They are drafting signing and developing new talent as fast as they are dumping high end players that they can't afford. It's remarkable. Montreal needs an elite forward to comelet their core. Get and keep him and worry about the money later I say. The issue there is that player development needs to move more quickly to keep up with the players you dump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Byron's decent at French and now we're relying on him and Barberio, what with the upcoming Desharnais waive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Great posts on the subject guys, I like Commandant's philosophy, pay for elite talent, and manage the cap as you go.A team needs to acquire or if your lucky like the Habs, develop it, like in Price, Subban, Pacioretty, and Galchenyuk(we hope).Then you need to have a firm grasp on what you have coming up, and we seem to have a few young players who will be able to contribute, like Carr, Hudon, maybe even McCarron(sorry Don) De La Rose who I think will be a good NHL player and cheap for a while, albeit not a scorer yet, maybe won't be, but he plays a great NHL game in mostly every other way. He won't break the cap, and will play in a bottom 6 role cheap.Bergevin is on the right path I think, although the fans think he "didn't do a thing in our current crisis" I think he played the smart man's hand, and knew this year had to be "folded" without Price, unfortunate, but necessary for the long term, and the plan he laid out when he started, a young core he inhereted to be complimented by drafting and developing players, and acquiring pieces to make runs, perrenially a contender.I wouldn't mind seeing our top six tie up most of the dollars in the cap space, and the bottom six a mix of young guys(mostly), and the odd filler veteran like Mitchell.With Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher, Chucky, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, and Plekanec going in to next season, this team could be right back at the top next year, barring a catastrophy like this year, we have an opportunity to be that team that turns it around in a hurry, and go from bottom to top in a year...I'm keeping the faith for next season, and appreciate that this year, I won't have to cut my fishing day short to come home to watch the playoff game 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Great posts on the subject guys, I like Commandant's philosophy, pay for elite talent, and manage the cap as you go. A team needs to acquire or if your lucky like the Habs, develop it, like in Price, Subban, Pacioretty, and Galchenyuk(we hope). Then you need to have a firm grasp on what you have coming up, and we seem to have a few young players who will be able to contribute, like Carr, Hudon, maybe even McCarron(sorry Don) De La Rose who I think will be a good NHL player and cheap for a while, albeit not a scorer yet, maybe won't be, but he plays a great NHL game in mostly every other way. He won't break the cap, and will play in a bottom 6 role cheap. Bergevin is on the right path I think, although the fans think he "didn't do a thing in our current crisis" I think he played the smart man's hand, and knew this year had to be "folded" without Price, unfortunate, but necessary for the long term, and the plan he laid out when he started, a young core he inhereted to be complimented by drafting and developing players, and acquiring pieces to make runs, perrenially a contender. I wouldn't mind seeing our top six tie up most of the dollars in the cap space, and the bottom six a mix of young guys(mostly), and the odd filler veteran like Mitchell. With Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher, Chucky, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, and Plekanec going in to next season, this team could be right back at the top next year, barring a catastrophy like this year, we have an opportunity to be that team that turns it around in a hurry, and go from bottom to top in a year... I'm keeping the faith for next season, and appreciate that this year, I won't have to cut my fishing day short to come home to watch the playoff game Good attitude. We can spend spring outside, and drink a bit less or at least more productively. Add Petry to the core list, and if Markov is back he'll contribute, but maybe from the third pairing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Good attitude. We can spend spring outside, and drink a bit less or at least more productively. Add Petry to the core list, and if Markov is back he'll contribute, but maybe from the third pairing? I don't think Petry is going anywhere, but definitely not part of the core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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