Machine of Loving Grace Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 I agree that dumping young players is a bad idea. However, not every time is it a bad idea. Dumping Sergei was about making a point. Dumping Ribiero was clearly... odd damage control along with terrible pro scouting. Simply put this all has to do with asset management and pro scouting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I agree that dumping young players is a bad idea. However, not every time is it a bad idea. Dumping Sergei was about making a point. Dumping Ribiero was clearly... odd damage control along with terrible pro scouting. Simply put this all has to do with asset management and pro scouting. I'll agree with that, that's for sure. Habs29 is correct, as is often the case, here; it's not that Ribs should have been some untradeable hero, but he should not have been dumped for the irrelevant reason that he's a 'douche,' and we should only have moved him out if doing so brought back comparable or superior assets. Unfortunately, when you're scrambling to 'dump' a guy because of some incident, you are not likely to maximize the return. The whole midset is moralistic garbage to my way of thinking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I'll agree with that, that's for sure. Habs29 is correct, as is often the case, here; it's not that Ribs should have been some untradeable hero, but he should not have been dumped for the irrelevant reason that he's a 'douche,' and we should only have moved him out if doing so brought back comparable or superior assets. Unfortunately, when you're scrambling to 'dump' a guy because of some incident, you are not likely to maximize the return. The whole midset is moralistic garbage to my way of thinking. The Ribs trade, even when knowing why confused me. Ribiero didn't have a great reputation after the whole fake heart attack thing but he was still 26/27 with two solid seasons of 51 in 79 and 65 and 81. I doubt there was zero interest in the guy. However, they felt they had a "immediate situation" on their hands and even then, that's where the pro scouting failed. It felt like Montreal said to Dallas, "We are willing to give you Ribiero for Niinimaa" and not Montreal saying, "We got Ribiero on the block and we want to trade him sooner rather than later. What can you offer?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 The Grabs trade is still TBD. We'll get an idea of how Pateryn does in pro hockey soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted May 18, 2012 Author Share Posted May 18, 2012 Ya, i noted Jankowski plays quebec high school or something of the like and Button also thought him hard to judge due to competition level, but has all the parts (but so did/does Ben Pouliot). Am curious; I see many question Craig Button's rankings as being out to lunch, but he commented his is not a mock draft per say and more a long term prospect forcast, Whereas the TSN/McKenzie draft rank is easy to look back on and see as fairly accurate; do you know how Button's rankings have played out? He has been involved with prospects for a long time now and must be pretty good at talent projection by now, any idea? They aren't accurate as far as actual drafting goes. I know that. Are they an accurate predictor of how good the players will actually be? I'm not sure, I haven't looked at his lists for 2007, 2008 etc.. He did a great job as head scout of the Stars in the 90s. Not so good as GM of the Flames (not all his fault, drafting is more about the scouts than the GM, as the GM cant see the guys enough). Not so good scouting for the Leafs (not a good drafting record when he was working under JFJ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted May 18, 2012 Author Share Posted May 18, 2012 Cristoval "Boo" Nieves http://lastwordonsports.com/2012/05/18/nhl-draft-prospect-profile-42-cristoval-boo-nieves/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I don't give a damn whether a player is 'classy.' I care about whether they help the team win hockey games. Period. And I think Ribeiro's 0.91 points per game since 07-08 would have helped us win hockey games (Pleks is significantly lower at .71, incidentally, although I agree that he is a better all around player). I find it bizarre that fans of a team that has had a crippling problem at the C position for the past decade cheerfully regard us as better off without a .91 PPG player at C. This same philosophy that 'problem' players must immediately be shipped out regardless of return also led the organization to dump Carbo and superstar Chris Chelios (!!!!). The policy is clearly folly once you add up the bodies on the floor: Chelios for Savard; Carbo for nothing; Sergei Kostitsyn for nothing; Grabs for nothing; Ribeiro for nothing. And there's probably others I'm forgetting. As for Ribs, it may well be that he was at war with Koivu, in which case I suppose Habs29 is right and he had to go...but when you consider that Koivu also apparently hated Grabovski, it raises a different set of problems. Accomodating Koivu's distaste for young, talented but immature C consequently cost us the two best centremen (after Pleks) that the organization developed over Gainey's entire tenure. Finally, don't forget that, if we keep Ribeiro and he emerges as he did in Dallas, then in principle we don't need to make the trade for Gomez, with all that that has wrought. Our ongoing headaches at C are, frankly, fitting. They are an appropriate and merited consequence of an irresponsible policy of jettisoning young players the minute they show immature or 'classless' behaviour. The stupidity of the policy becomes cataclysmic when coupled with the Habs' ridiculous refusal to assign someone full-time to the job of overseeing player development. Not only do we hold kids to some saintly standard, but we fail to provide them with mentorship. It's folly upon folly upon folly. And it's cost us big. Hopefully Bergevin shows a greater awareness of the need to help turn 23 year olds into responsible pros, rather than jettison them when they make mistakes. You make a huge assumption; that Riberio and others noted would of played exact same with Habs? Would John Leclaire have done as well without Lindros as his centre? Not a chance. Would Sergai/Grobovski/Riberio have played the same without first being cast off for bag of pucks and realizing they aint irreplacable and are i step from KHL, very hard to say? You also assume the Habs are different than most other teams, who also jettison troublemaking youngsters in bout same frequency, most likely? Myself, i would take a hard working mediocre player over a slightly more skilled floater like Cammalleri who dosent produce to his salary expectations and then blames everything but what he sees in the mirror for his failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 They aren't accurate as far as actual drafting goes. I know that. Are they an accurate predictor of how good the players will actually be? I'm not sure, I haven't looked at his lists for 2007, 2008 etc.. He did a great job as head scout of the Stars in the 90s. Not so good as GM of the Flames (not all his fault, drafting is more about the scouts than the GM, as the GM cant see the guys enough). Not so good scouting for the Leafs (not a good drafting record when he was working under JFJ). thanks, i knew little of his track record Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Cristoval "Boo" Nieves http://lastwordonspo...val-boo-nieves/ Chances are he might be similar to a Steve Quailer or Dustin Walsh type player eh (but has lower offensive production at same stage of development than those 2, similar body type though)? And really 42nd is as high as he should be taken isnt it, and likely be more a 3rd rounder at best?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted May 18, 2012 Author Share Posted May 18, 2012 Chances are he might be similar to a Steve Quailer or Dustin Walsh type player eh (but has lower offensive production at same stage of development than those 2, similar body type though)? And really 42nd is as high as he should be taken isnt it, and likely be more a 3rd rounder at best?? I've seen rankings with him in the high 20s and early 30s... .I've also seen rankings in the 60s. The skill set is there. But there are some questions too. I guess it depends on the team scouting him, if they see the potential in him, or if they are scared by the risks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankhab Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Back to the topic at hand, I've heard all the arguments, pros and cons, and my pick at 3rd overall would still be Mikhail Grigorenko. Although I've never been a pro scout, I've read every issue of the Hockey News Draft Preview ever printed (yes, I meant that to be funny, so please go ahead and laugh), and I remember similar concerns (consistency, work ethic, attitude) being mentioned about a certain Jagr, and Malkin, and they seemed to have worked out ok. When we have a chance to finally grab a big, strong, extremely talented centre who can probably step right in and play, for me, its an easy choice. The only thing that really worries me is the Galchenyuk kid, and the possibility that the Leafs will grab him at 5th. I think he's the sleeper of this years draft, potentially the best player available, but maybe not, no way to know for sure. Not a good year for Quebec kids, from what I have read and heard, still could be a late round project or 2. As for the later rounds, from what I read, there could be some very interesting players around for the 2nd round, or maybe even to trade up for late in the 3rd round. For instance, if Brendan Gaunce really lasts till 17th as predicted, might be a good chance to grab another big, skilled centre. These are the kind of things good, forward thinking GM's manage to do, so why not us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Assuming we do take another center at 3, we really, really don't need any more centers. If we move up, it should be to acquire a projected top 6 winger. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Back to the topic at hand, I've heard all the arguments, pros and cons, and my pick at 3rd overall would still be Mikhail Grigorenko. Although I've never been a pro scout, I've read every issue of the Hockey News Draft Preview ever printed (yes, I meant that to be funny, so please go ahead and laugh), and I remember similar concerns (consistency, work ethic, attitude) being mentioned about a certain Jagr, and Malkin, and they seemed to have worked out ok. When we have a chance to finally grab a big, strong, extremely talented centre who can probably step right in and play, for me, its an easy choice. The only thing that really worries me is the Galchenyuk kid, and the possibility that the Leafs will grab him at 5th. I think he's the sleeper of this years draft, potentially the best player available, but maybe not, no way to know for sure. Not a good year for Quebec kids, from what I have read and heard, still could be a late round project or 2. As for the later rounds, from what I read, there could be some very interesting players around for the 2nd round, or maybe even to trade up for late in the 3rd round. For instance, if Brendan Gaunce really lasts till 17th as predicted, might be a good chance to grab another big, skilled centre. These are the kind of things good, forward thinking GM's manage to do, so why not us? I think if you flip back through the 44 pages on this topic, you will see Galchenyuk is in no way a sleeper and likely the favorite at #3, even though all likely agree Grigorenko has all the talent in the world, but it is between the ears that no one is sure of, or willing to risk a once in 32 year top 3 pick for the Habs on? Maybe Timmins and staff see otherwise and whomever they pick should be a good one. I think the GM sort of takes a back seat and lets scouting crew evaluate prospects (Bobby Clarke couldnt even remember Claude Giroux's name at podium) and if a highly valued one, like a Tinordi, has slipped some, then the GM is likely consulted before trading up/swapping picks. Otherwise i think Timmins simply take best player available, ignores curent roster needs and whether pick is a centre/winger/d-man is a secondary consideration. (e.g. took Beaulieu at 17 when Mark McNeill was still available and McNeill is basically a Gaunce clone and a big skilled centre, but Beaulieu had slid and was BPA). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted May 18, 2012 Author Share Posted May 18, 2012 There is some consultation between GM and Scout about BPA. At the Price draft Timmins told Gainey... I have two guys who are virtually even for BPA... a franchise defenceman (Marc Staal) and a franchise Goalie (Carey Price) and Gainey said to pick the franchise Goalie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 There is some consultation between GM and Scout about BPA. At the Price draft Timmins told Gainey... I have two guys who are virtually even for BPA... a franchise defenceman (Marc Staal) and a franchise Goalie (Carey Price) and Gainey said to pick the franchise Goalie. And was at that point ol Serge Savard and many others got quite upset? I remember the 2003 one where McGuire was ranting (i know, that goes without saying) about how skilled Kostitsyn was and if not for siezures he would of been top 5 for sure, but dont remember 2005 draft at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted May 19, 2012 Author Share Posted May 19, 2012 And was at that point ol Serge Savard and many others got quite upset? I remember the 2003 one where McGuire was ranting (i know, that goes without saying) about how skilled Kostitsyn was and if not for siezures he would of been top 5 for sure, but dont remember 2005 draft at all. McGuire went insane at the 2005 Draft. He called the pick "straight off the reservation" which knowing Price's background is really an unfortunate description. ===================== Anyways today we profile Finnish Dman Ville Pokka http://lastwordonsports.com/2012/05/19/nhl-draft-prospect-profile-43-ville-pokka/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankhab Posted May 19, 2012 Share Posted May 19, 2012 Perhaps instead of sleeper, I should have called Galchenyuk the wild card of the draft, very talented, but the obvious problem of not being able to play all year. Apparently a lot of teams are very high on him, central scouting, not so much. I still say Grigorenko, a known commodity, already has played in Quebec, big body, talent, ready to step in next year, most likely. In 2 years or so, perhaps you guys can all say told you so, but I don't think so. Either way, however, we are going to have our most exciting forward prospect in years after this years draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted May 20, 2012 Author Share Posted May 20, 2012 Daniil Zharkov of Belleville http://lastwordonsports.com/2012/05/20/nhl-draft-prospect-profile-44-daniil-zharkov/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thib46 Posted May 20, 2012 Share Posted May 20, 2012 What worries me about Grigorenko is a lot of scouts and people in this forum who have seen him play say he does not show up at every match. Granted he is still a young man and he will probably mature but it should be a concern and the interview process should make a point of checking this out. I believe we can all name players who do not show up at every match and why not try to stay away from that type of player. He might turn out to be the best, who knows. Maybe the Shadow does? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbp Posted May 20, 2012 Share Posted May 20, 2012 What worries me about Grigorenko is a lot of scouts and people in this forum who have seen him play say he does not show up at every match. Granted he is still a young man and he will probably mature but it should be a concern and the interview process should make a point of checking this out. I believe we can all name players who do not show up at every match and why not try to stay away from that type of player. He might turn out to be the best, who knows. Maybe the Shadow does? So you could run the risk of getting a Kovalev, game breaking ability... with little to no drive. Course Kovalev still had a few point per game+ seasons every once and a while. (BTW: Found out his middle name is Vyacheslavovich that is so intense!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted May 20, 2012 Author Share Posted May 20, 2012 Grigorenko was dominant early in the season. There were no questions about whether he showed up every game or not. Those only started after the world juniors and we know he was playing on a badly sprained ankle. Then we saw the disappointing playoffs, but we also know he had mono. So you have to wonder how much was "effort" and how much was a bad ankle and mono making him look worse? I'd take him at 3, but only if Yakupov, Galchenyuk go 1-2. I'd rank them Yak, Gally, Grigo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 Trevor Timmins interview http://www.rds.ca/zone-video/#cat=en_vedette&videoID=110313 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Grigorenko was dominant early in the season. There were no questions about whether he showed up every game or not. Those only started after the world juniors and we know he was playing on a badly sprained ankle. Then we saw the disappointing playoffs, but we also know he had mono. So you have to wonder how much was "effort" and how much was a bad ankle and mono making him look worse? I'd take him at 3, but only if Yakupov, Galchenyuk go 1-2. I'd rank them Yak, Gally, Grigo i just hope that neither of them are available for the leafs. I'd hate to have the guy we pass on taken by the leafs and turning out to be the better player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbp Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Trevor Timmins interview http://www.rds.ca/zo...&videoID=110313 Never seen the man before, really liked that interview! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 You don't see it here, but Timmins is a beast. Guy has bigger biceps than half our team.... he's a real gym rat, and was an amateur body builder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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