The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Oh man, I could not agree more that we cannot bring up both Tinordi and Beaulieu at the same time. Despite the endless optimism from fans about what rookies can do, rookies are almost always inconsistent and unreliable over an entire season, and throwing two of them onto the backend is a recipe for bottom-feeding. You know, for all the talk that we need an impact forward, there's this fella called Alex Galchenyuk who was supposed to be an absolutely elite offensive prospect. I guess it's implausible to hope that he can put it all together within the "Markov window?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 7, 2014 Author Share Posted January 7, 2014 You know, for all the talk that we need an impact forward, there's this fella called Alex Galchenyuk who was supposed to be an absolutely elite offensive prospect. I guess it's implausible to hope that he can put it all together within the "Markov window?" I agree. I don't what it is about Habs fans and Galchenyuk. They seem to keep treating him like he's so far away. He's fourth in scoring, third for forwards despite averaging less even strength minutes than seven other forwards. Eighth in average even strength minutes while being tied for the third most even strength points. It's pretty clear he's closer to being our best forward than people treat him. (Also Therrien needs to play Plekanec more on the power play.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Brian Wilde made some great points last night about how last year, the team was freewheeling and exciting and scored a lot of goals but they were defensively inept. This year their defence is solid, along with brilliant goaltending, but they are not winning as flashy of games. This is what's creating the issue of people thinking the team is bad instead of just considering them slumping. Pretty much if you take their scoring from last year along with their overall defensive play from this season, you have a Stanley Cup contender. The team is just sometimes too young and sometimes too old to accomplish that balance. They are just not ready to show the consistency needed, but that doesn't mean they can't. That's not to say that in the past several games we haven't been poor. We got the points to mask it and that's what a good team does, but I don't consider it our overall play. I think Therrien has been making some lineup mistakes, we have been trying to spread our offence thin, we've been using our defensive players the wrong way, our PP has been focused too much on the back end and we clearly need an upgrade in certain places .But that's why we're a team in progress. Honestly, Diaz fits the bill of what you're looking for except he isn't physical enough. You know who would fit the bill of a guy who could move Gorges down the depth chart? Beaulieu. He just isn't there yet. Subban: top defenceman entering his prime Markov: top defenceman declining Emelin: pairing defensive defenceman in his prime Gorges: pairing defensive defenceman in his prime After that, you're either playing third pairing players (Cube, Murray, etc.) or you could play a young player. We've played Diaz, who has the skills to be a top four D-man but has some issues with physicality and consistency. The hope is to have Beaulieu and either Tinordi or Pateryn in the other spots. If we made a trade involving Diaz, I'd hope it's actually to package for a forward upgrade so we could just move up one of the kids. Commandant has made the point before, bringing up the kids at the same time is a mistake. Ease one in, bring up the other later. I don't really know much about player development. I just have this feeling that if Beaulieu was taken out of that AHL atmosphere and given a solid chunk of time with the Habs, he would find his stride. Personally I thought Tinordi did enough to play bottom pair D this year. The Canadiens defensive roster this year is stacked with place holders. A defensive core that is there to let the young kids get reps in the AHL. That's why I don't know if M.B will make a move for another D-man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 If Beaulieu was up this year playing solid hockey, does Markov become expendable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Chucky broke his hand... Out 4 to 6 weeks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 7, 2014 Author Share Posted January 7, 2014 If Beaulieu was up this year playing solid hockey, does Markov become expendable? No, it makes Diaz expendable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmethead Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Chucky broke his hand... Out 4 to 6 weeks... WHAT??? For real??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Not really. A lot of people here don't watch other teams in the NHL. We have the second best defensive game in the east. The whole reason Diaz' agent might be asking for more than we're willing to pay is because we play him as a third pairing D (and these days scratch him) while other teams would gladly take him in their top four. Our goals against has been out of whack due to the last few games but Pittsburgh and Tampa are not better defensive teams than us. Pittsburgh is trying to Jacques Martin their defence which has been great for them but it's not better than Subban/Markov/Gorges. Our goals against per game is tied for third in the league, behind only LA, Boston and equal with St. Louis. Think about that for a second. Despite a mediocre last 10 games, Montreal is still top three for goals against per game. That isn't all Price, though Price is a big part of it. We're middle of the pack for shots. That's actually really impressive and I love team stats. Only thing that would be better is if we were top 3 in wins the only real stat that matters. to get there the Habs need to score more frequently! 21st in the league in goals per game ( right on par with the King's whose record we mirror) Although they are in the big scary west. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 If Beaulieu was up this year playing solid hockey, does Markov become expendable? Not yet. Nathan has a long way to go.\ Only area he is better than Markov now is skating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I don't really know much about player development. I just have this feeling that if Beaulieu was taken out of that AHL atmosphere and given a solid chunk of time with the Habs, he would find his stride. Personally I thought Tinordi did enough to play bottom pair D this year. The Canadiens defensive roster this year is stacked with place holders. A defensive core that is there to let the young kids get reps in the AHL. That's why I don't know if M.B will make a move for another D-man. Most young defencemen need time to develop, it's why we don't see too many drafted d-men making the jump to the NHL immediately. Even Subban had a full minor league year under his belt even though he showed signs early that year that he may be ready for an NHL role. In a short stint, rookie blueliners can show enough in a limited role to be a passable bottom pairing guy but part of the reason for that is that teams don't have enough of a scouting report on the player to take advantages of their weaknesses. As we progressed early this year, teams started going at Tinordi with speed which put him in a chase position, an area that he struggles. Teams pressed when Beaulieu had the puck since he has a tendency to panic under pressure and it resulted in either turnovers or botched passes and even that was in a short stint. Longer term as you're suggesting, that would be further exacerbated. The AHL is there to help overcome those struggles, the less you have to learn on the fly in the NHL, the better. I realize I've been critical of both this year and I may be implying that both are losing their status as quality prospects. That's not the case, I believe both have NHL futures in front of them. It's just going to take time, patience is going to be required for both of them. The best thing going for them right now is that the D in Montreal is healthy. They're settling in with regards to a role and a D partner. That should help build confidence which in turn should aid their development. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted January 7, 2014 Author Share Posted January 7, 2014 That's actually really impressive and I love team stats. Only thing that would be better is if we were top 3 in wins the only real stat that matters. to get there the Habs need to score more frequently! 21st in the league in goals per game ( right on par with the King's whose record we mirror) Although they are in the big scary west. While you can't just slide a player who is good at even strength goal scoring and say job is done, I do think the Canadiens, if acquiring a goal scorer, should shy from powerplay specialists (even if we're not as good as we could be, we're still top 10) and focus on an even strength shooter. In that case, that's why Kane and Vanek are good trade targets with 12 ESGs each this season. Ryan O'Reilly is another possibility (at the deadline) with 10. If I was to go a bit outside the box it'd be Lars Eller's Danish buddy Mikkel Boedker in Phoenix. He has a friendly contract with a $2.5M cap hit for this season and next and while he's no superstar, he'd fit great on the third line on Eller's wing. His 10 even strength goals this year is a good sign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmethead Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 DD on the broken play... I'm surprised no one has mentioned that this was far from a broken play. At first it seemed that way but after seeing the replay a couple of times it's obvious he purposely faked the shot with the intention of getting Thomas to cheat. Wow...I'm not a huge fan of his but he's when he's on, he's really special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazy26 Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I'm surprised no one has mentioned that this was far from a broken play. At first it seemed that way but after seeing the replay a couple of times it's obvious he purposely faked the shot with the intention of getting Thomas to cheat. Wow...I'm not a huge fan of his but he's when he's on, he's really special. I dunno. I rewatched the play a few times, and it looks like he fanned on the forehand shot attempt. I give him full props for not giving up on the play though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 He fanned in the okay and stuck with it. That's pretty much what he said in an interview. I dunno. I rewatched the play a few times, and it looks like he fanned on the forehand shot attempt. I give him full props for not giving up on the play though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMAC Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Oh man, I could not agree more that we cannot bring up both Tinordi and Beaulieu at the same time. Despite the endless optimism from fans about what rookies can do, rookies are almost always inconsistent and unreliable over an entire season, and throwing two of them onto the backend is a recipe for bottom-feeding. You know, for all the talk that we need an impact forward, there's this fella called Alex Galchenyuk who was supposed to be an absolutely elite offensive prospect. I guess it's implausible to hope that he can put it all together within the "Markov window?" It depends what the duration of said window is.... From what I have seen this season, Markov seems like he has several years left at minimum. What I would like to see is us acquire some additional scoring--without sacrificing too much depth-- so that we could win a couple of rounds or more this season. Its fine to plan for us to contend in 2-3 yrs, but despite all the pessimism on here we have a pretty good team right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Wise words PMAC, I agree completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Most young defencemen need time to develop, it's why we don't see too many drafted d-men making the jump to the NHL immediately. Even Subban had a full minor league year under his belt even though he showed signs early that year that he may be ready for an NHL role. In a short stint, rookie blueliners can show enough in a limited role to be a passable bottom pairing guy but part of the reason for that is that teams don't have enough of a scouting report on the player to take advantages of their weaknesses. As we progressed early this year, teams started going at Tinordi with speed which put him in a chase position, an area that he struggles. Teams pressed when Beaulieu had the puck since he has a tendency to panic under pressure and it resulted in either turnovers or botched passes and even that was in a short stint. Longer term as you're suggesting, that would be further exacerbated. The AHL is there to help overcome those struggles, the less you have to learn on the fly in the NHL, the better. I realize I've been critical of both this year and I may be implying that both are losing their status as quality prospects. That's not the case, I believe both have NHL futures in front of them. It's just going to take time, patience is going to be required for both of them. The best thing going for them right now is that the D in Montreal is healthy. They're settling in with regards to a role and a D partner. That should help build confidence which in turn should aid their development. Fair enough. Good post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I agree. I don't what it is about Habs fans and Galchenyuk. They seem to keep treating him like he's so far away. He's fourth in scoring, third for forwards despite averaging less even strength minutes than seven other forwards. Eighth in average even strength minutes while being tied for the third most even strength points. It's pretty clear he's closer to being our best forward than people treat him. (Also Therrien needs to play Plekanec more on the power play.) Agreed. True that Chucky has struggled over the past 2 weeks, doesn't change the fact that he's 4th in scoring and he's averaging about 12-13 minutes a game...which is much less than most forwards! Let's not forget that he's only 19 years old... he could've played for team USA in the junior tournament last week! Too bad he had to get injured now. At least he won't miss too many games with the Olympic break. Great post Stogey24. i completely agree. It always takes more time with defensemen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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