canadien hockey Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 agreed they need a top 4 RH defence first, good first pass, grit. defence i see going forward are: (Emelin / Markov), Subban - (leading to trading Markov at the deadline if the package is right. should be able to get a good deal for him) Beaulieu, _________ - (Johnny Boychuk, Adam McQuaid type player, Dan Girardi (is he a UFA)) Tinordi, Pateryn extra: Murray? - leadrship, tough, etc Expenadable this year: Gorges, Boullion, Markov ??, Emelin??, Murray ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Well, a day and much internet discussion later I've softened on this trade a bit. Ultimately it's two minor pieces, after all, and the Weise defenders have a good point about his youth, size, speed and contract status. And even though Diaz has potential as a puck-mover, he has exactly one goal in two seasons, a stat suggesting very little upside as a second-wave PP presence. He may indeed never be anything more than a one-dimensional puck-mover good for getting the puck out of the zone and little else (not to mention the suicide pass that nearly killed Eller). He did sound genuinely disappointed that it didn't work out in Montreal, though. I heard Torterella on Vancouver radio - who, interestingly, was literally threatening his entire team with "changes to personnel" - saying that he had an "assessment" of Weise, and Weise disagreed with it. To me, this suggests that Weise thinks he is more than a 4th line crash-and-banger. I don't know if this is a red flag or not (tell me we're not getting yet another guy with size who doesn't want to use it!!). But it's worth noting that we acquired a player who was on the outs with his coach, just as Diaz was with ours, so in terms of "managing value" you can argue it's a classic saw-off. And note that Vancouver's bottom-6 is much worse than ours. They are at least as desperate as we are for skilled size up front. Yet they happily jettisoned Weise. Any optimism about this guy should be seriously tempered by that knowledge. The most likely outcome is that Weise bobs around here for a couple of years and then is either dumped for a low pick at the deadline or allowed to walk as a UFA, leaving us with wistful online comments about what a shame it is he couldn't add hands and offensive sense to his footspeed. Finally: did Bergevin shop Diaz (and Bourque) around properly, i.e., to both conferences, or not??? If he did not, then this trade is still unacceptable in principle to me. I am absolutely sick and tired of the Habs not being ruthlessly committed to maximizing the value of their assets, minor or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadien hockey Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 4th line - Prust (LW), White ©, Weisse (RW) - if they keep the emotions in tact, play extremely aggressive and disciplined could be a very tought line to play against. teach them to be defensively responsible and if so they could be a very good 4th line that can relieve the top 3 lines. they can not be a liability and take needless stupid penalites however. obviusly when "penalties" are needed that is different but if they avoid the unnecessary penalties they can be very effective. think of Boston's 4th line (Paille, Campbell, Thorton). Tough but reliable. i think Prust needs a bit of a rest. he is obviously injured. Moen i think will be traded. he is an asset for a lot of teams, especially teams going for a cup run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Agree on Moan, he would fit nicely on any contender. His icetime seems to have dropped and Weise maybe a planned fill in for him? But, he and Plekanec are easily the best PK forward pairing on Habs and Moan seems more 'fiesty' this year and I think he would be missed. And trading him would open up more cap room, so will be interesting to see what Bergevin has planned before March 5th? I didn't think he would make any trades before Olympic break, so am wrong already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadien hockey Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Pacioretty (25), __________ , _________ ________, Galchenyuk (19), Gallagher (21) Bournival (21), Plekanec © (31), (size / defensive / some offensive skill) - (useful defensive / checking line) Prust (29), White (25), Weisse (25) Trade / Available: Bourque (32), Briere (36), Gionta (35), Moen (31), Desharnais (27), Eller (24) - try to get something valubale in return and at the least free up cap space for one or two FA's. Others C. Thomas (21), L.Leblanc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nihilz Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Parros from Florida, Thomas from NY & Tokarski from TB. Not sure where this conference bias is coming from.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Agree on Moan, he would fit nicely on any contender. His icetime seems to have dropped and Weise maybe a planned fill in for him? But, he and Plekanec are easily the best PK forward pairing on Habs and Moan seems more 'fiesty' this year and I think he would be missed. And trading him would open up more cap room, so will be interesting to see what Bergevin has planned before March 5th? I didn't think he would make any trades before Olympic break, so am wrong already. I said Moen would be traded mid season, but now I'm hoping he stays with the club. I've grown to respect his game. I don't think he's going anywhere. Bergevin said they need character players, well Moen is one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Yeah...what purpose is to be served in trading Moen? Getting a 4th-round pick? Weise was supposed to make our team tougher - not to replace Moen so we can make a lateral move while subtracting Diaz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadien hockey Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 depends i guiess on the offers. not important to let him go but if the offer is right he is definitley expendable. he is playing well, you may be able to sell high to a contending team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 The fact is that Wiese is a waiver pick up and fourth liners are commodities that can be had for nothing. Whatever we think of Diaz, he is a second pair puck moving defenseman. Worse case, he is a third pairing guy who can play on the PP. Those are hard to come by and are tradeable. No, he is not a Markov and he might not have fit in our plans, but he was given away. We swapped a guy playing 19 min a night for a six minute a night guy with half the point totals per game. And no, he isn't Prust. There was no reason to sit Diaz. He should have been showcased and either traded for picks or packaged for someone decent. At least a good prospect. Frankly, this is the time to trade DD while he has some value. Instead, we will wait until it is obvious to everyone that he is useless without Pacs scoring and he will be untradeable. Sitting Diaz and making him seem useless is not the way to get a fair return. Please note...Vancouver was desperate for a defenseman and they still won the deal. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 It's incredible that people here feel that Diaz is a second pair defenceman just because he puts up points from time to time but Josh Gorges is a third pairing piece of trash that does nothing for the team and needs to be traded (but supposedly will net us Evander Kane if we add a few mid-level prospects). Diaz was never on Gorge's level defensively, especially when it came to clearing the puck out of our zone. I don't think Therrien handled him properly but Nathan Beaulieu making rookie mistakes still plays better than Diaz. But yeah, we traded a second pairing D-man. Please. I'm not touting the wonderful return for Diaz (Weise was supposedly mishandled in Vancouver, but I doubt at the level claimed) because a lot of what people are saying is stuff that never matters (there's no promise he'll suddenly become a better player once he hits 27) but I never saw Diaz as a long term part of this team, nor was he contributing anything currently, nor was he a playoff performer for us. And again, it's a trade. It's Bergevin finally pulling the trigger on re-modeling this year this season. Too much of the same. I get the feeling he relies too much on his coaching management's opinion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCPetit Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I don't like the trade at all. IMO Diaz is way better than Therrien's evaluation. It's all a question of confidence and knowing what the coach is expecting from you. Look at what is happening with Subban. I feel that what he is going through is very similar with what happened to Diaz, except that he has more talent and will always find a way to make the adjustments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 It's incredible that people here feel that Diaz is a second pair defenceman just because he puts up points from time to time but Josh Gorges is a third pairing piece of trash that does nothing for the team and needs to be traded (but supposedly will net us Evander Kane if we add a few mid-level prospects). Diaz was never on Gorge's level defensively, especially when it came to clearing the puck out of our zone. I don't think Therrien handled him properly but Nathan Beaulieu making rookie mistakes still plays better than Diaz. But yeah, we traded a second pairing D-man. Please. I'm not touting the wonderful return for Diaz (Weise was supposedly mishandled in Vancouver, but I doubt at the level claimed) because a lot of what people are saying is stuff that never matters (there's no promise he'll suddenly become a better player once he hits 27) but I never saw Diaz as a long term part of this team, nor was he contributing anything currently, nor was he a playoff performer for us. And again, it's a trade. It's Bergevin finally pulling the trigger on re-modeling this year this season. Too much of the same. I get the feeling he relies too much on his coaching management's opinion. Gorges is a stay at home D. Diaz is a puck moving defenseman who was not anywhere near as bad as you make him out to be. Emelin... 7 points, minus 10. Isn't he on our second pairing... Murray. 2 points, minus 13 Boullion 4 points, minus 9 Diaz 11 points, minus 4 This in a bad offensive year for Diaz. He got restrained minutes and was a positive plus minus until he was put with Murray. He was third on the team in blocked shots, ahead of Murray, PK, and Emelin. Giveaways... 17, vs over 50 for PK and Markov. He isn't a hitter for sure, but either is Beaulieu. Beaulieu has 1 point in 13 games. Sorry, but on most teams in the league he isn't sitting in the box but either on the 2nd or 3rd pairing. Definitely on the PP. For that matter, Vancouver picked up Wiese on waivers and were on the record of wanting him gone. They were desperate for a D due to injuries. Are you telling me we couldn't get a prospect or take Wiese and a middle pick for Diaz? This wasn't a great trade. It isn't huge and it won't make or break us, but it is troubling that MB can't win this one or realize he needed to showcase Diaz and the screw over a troubled team like Vancouver. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 PK and Markov are high in giveaways because they always have the puck. Everyone knows that. There's no better proof of how dishonest it is to use +/- to argue a defenceman's skill and worth than Patrice Brisebois. When he came back to the Habs, every shift looked like he was going to cost the team on the scoreboard. You know what his +/- was? -2 and -3. That's it. It wasn't some radical -28 or anything. He was a -3 in his final year with the Habs. Does that mean he wasn't that bad? No, he was absolutely atrocious! But he was able to maintain his stat. Diaz had a -7 on the road but maintained a positive +/- at home. Good for him. Doesn't change how soft he was, how he could never play the boards, how he always got out of position and how he always made his outlet passes to the inside. I like the idea of Diaz, a second pairing RD behind Subban but Beaulieu accomplishes that so much better. It ain't about hitting, it's about having the toughness to take a hit and not get rattled. Then again, this is a discussion board where some claim Pacioretty isn't tough so there you go. Diaz is a young Marc-Andre Bergeron. Not much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Just for the sake of never seeing again the usual Diaz's suicide pass (see how Eller got killed last playoffs, and I screamed at my tv at least twice this season for the exact same reason), I'm in love with this trade. I've never seen Diaz as more than a 3rd pair - 4th offensive dman. Will not even see the difference with him gone. Beaulieu is already as good as him in his own end and has twice his ceiling while being younger and cheaper for years to come. AMAZING move. Would have prefered a 3rd pick though instead of a body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 Lol... I guess we got more then a bag of pucks... http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/what-does-it-mean-to-be-traded-for-a-bag-of-pucks/ By the way...apparently Bourque isn't wanted by anyone in the league....gets a regular shift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Just for the sake of never seeing again the usual Diaz's suicide pass (see how Eller got killed last playoffs, and I screamed at my tv at least twice this season for the exact same reason), I'm in love with this trade. It's probably what got him benched. Last memory of Diaz as a Hab was him still passing to the inside with the opposing team incoming. Think it was the Ottawa game which Price saved the whole team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 PK and Markov are high in giveaways because they always have the puck. Everyone knows that. There's no better proof of how dishonest it is to use +/- to argue a defenceman's skill and worth than Patrice Brisebois. When he came back to the Habs, every shift looked like he was going to cost the team on the scoreboard. You know what his +/- was? -2 and -3. That's it. It wasn't some radical -28 or anything. He was a -3 in his final year with the Habs. Does that mean he wasn't that bad? No, he was absolutely atrocious! But he was able to maintain his stat. Diaz had a -7 on the road but maintained a positive +/- at home. Good for him. Doesn't change how soft he was, how he could never play the boards, how he always got out of position and how he always made his outlet passes to the inside. I like the idea of Diaz, a second pairing RD behind Subban but Beaulieu accomplishes that so much better. It ain't about hitting, it's about having the toughness to take a hit and not get rattled. Then again, this is a discussion board where some claim Pacioretty isn't tough so there you go. Diaz is a young Marc-Andre Bergeron. Not much more. Diaz... Out of position so much he was third in blocks... You have an opinion of Diaz which has been your opinion since day one. Plus minus isn't perfect but I have watched ever game this season and he much better at clearing the zone then many of our D.. The fact is, he wasn't always out of position nor was he brutal defensively. He was a decent puck moving defenseman. Your argument is like saying Emelin is useless because he can't pass, can't score, and is often out of position, but ignores his toughness and hits. Few D are available that have everything. If we had a team of Gorges and Emelins and Murrays we would be last in the nhl. This isn't about trading Diaz...I am fine with Trading Diaz. it is about not getting value for him. You don't sell a car by putting it on blocks, letting it get dirty, then complaining it isn't that great a car. It's probably what got him benched. Last memory of Diaz as a Hab was him still passing to the inside with the opposing team incoming. Think it was the Ottawa game which Price saved the whole team. Funny, I saw PK make the same pass a few games ago...Eller ducked out. I have seen Emelin make the same pass many times. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalhabs Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Diaz is an upcoming UFA, he will want a raise that we most likely cant afford and dont want to pay. He hasnt exactly dominated this season. I think we couldnt have got alot more value out of him. And before whining about anything at least wait for both players to play a few games in their new teams. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Diaz... Out of position so much he was third in blocks... If you think "falling to the ice to stop a shot" is the same as "not paying attention to the player deep on the right side and allowing them to form a play because you were trying to chase an off wing player down" there's your issue. It's sad these discussions about players always goes to, "you're pointing out their inconsistencies and negatives? Well we can't all be perfect!" instead of confronting the truth: Diaz, at his best, was a decent second pairing blueliner. Diaz, at his worst, was a liability. Diaz, on average, pushed closer to liability than decent. That's not ignoring that Therrien favoured players like Bouillon and Murray over him, when I'd say Diaz is definitely better than Cube. But Cube isn't an expiring UFA blueliner. I'd much prefer to see Tinordi or Pateryn up than see Cube or Murray out there. We're not in disagreement about the uselessness of Murray. Crankshaft makes two nice checks a game and the rest of me paying attention to him is groaning at his ineffectiveness. I wonder if someone is ready to give a second rounder for him again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Lol... I guess we got more then a bag of pucks... http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/what-does-it-mean-to-be-traded-for-a-bag-of-pucks/ By the way...apparently Bourque isn't wanted by anyone in the league....gets a regular shift. I love it now could we get 15,000 bags of pucks for dd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 We can all agree that Diaz isn't great in his own end. But can you argue that Emelin is ANY better? If Emelin doesn't connect on a major hit, he's often a liability (and sometimes, even when he does). But Bergevin signs him for $4M per year, and trades Diaz for almost nothing. They're close in age and both new to the league, so they could improve a bit, but Bergevin goes all in on one without seeing him after a major injury, and dumps the other at his lowest value possible. Bad asset management on both players. Here's a comparison: Last year when Emelin was healthy, teams scored .802 goals per 20 minutes on him. .376/20 on Diaz. As rookies teams scored 1.108 goals against Emelin/20 minutes, 0.712 against Diaz. Sure, there are many variables that go into these stats, but they point to Diaz being less of a defensive liability than Emelin. Many of us are conditioned to think see Emelin's size and hitting and think he's a better defender, but there's more to it than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HabsFanOhio Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 As I noted in an earlier post, there is no doubt that Diaz was better at keeping the puck out of our net than others on the D. The question though, is what is the best path to building a team that can compete for a championship. In that light, he is too small, not physical enough and for a supposedly offensive D, doesn't generate offense. If Weise plays well, he could be a useful component of a team that can go deep in the playoffs; I don't think that is truer of Diaz than it will be about the players we eventually replace him with ( i.e Pateryn, or someone from another trade). That's why I don't mind the move. Totally agree though, that sititng him for 8 games prior to moving him was stupid. And in spite of the fact that I don't mind this particular trade, I still think the management team of Bergevin and Therrien is a disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 I love it now could we get 15,000 bags of pucks for dd? That would be a lot of pucks... I think we would need a mix of pucks and water bottles. Maybe they could throw in a little rink whiteboard so Therrien can draw up dump and chase plays. As I noted in an earlier post, there is no doubt that Diaz was better at keeping the puck out of our net than others on the D. The question though, is what is the best path to building a team that can compete for a championship. In that light, he is too small, not physical enough and for a supposedly offensive D, doesn't generate offense. If Weise plays well, he could be a useful component of a team that can go deep in the playoffs; I don't think that is truer of Diaz than it will be about the players we eventually replace him with ( i.e Pateryn, or someone from another trade). That's why I don't mind the move. Totally agree though, that sititng him for 8 games prior to moving him was stupid. And in spite of the fact that I don't mind this particular trade, I still think the management team of Bergevin and Therrien is a disaster. Yeah, I had no problem trading him, but we could have gotten Wiese for a 4th round pick if we really wanted him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 That would be a lot of pucks... I think we would need a mix of pucks and water bottles. Maybe they could throw in a little rink whiteboard so Therrien can draw up dump and chase plays. Yeah, I had no problem trading him, but we could have gotten Wiese for a 4th round pick if we really wanted him. I think that is my only problem with the trade not that I overvalue Diaz but Wiese was probably headed for waivers so it seems like we should have got a little kiss, like maybe a 4th or 5th round pick as well. Diaz at times looked good, at other times really bad. I am growing to not dislie the trade as much. Really want to see how wiesse looks tonite. We now have the best Danish hockey player in the NHL and the best Dutch hockey player. Who woulda thunk it? Btw I agree with your trade modifications but it could be for DD Briere or Borque no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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