Commandant Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Such a stupid trade..... Yes, Diaz needed to go, but he should have gotten more. Even if it was a 3rd or 4th round pick that would be better. Weise is too much of what we already have... a scrub. Does he even play when everyone is healthy or is he our 14th forward? Patch - DD - Gallagher Galch - Plek - Gionta Briere - Eller - Bourque Bournival - White - Prust Moen Weise Tell me again, what was the point of this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 dlbalr made a good point in the Habsworld article that Diaz could have inflated his value by playing well in Sochi, and that there was no need to pull the trigger now (unless Bergevin is afraid of injuries, in which case I'd say fear is deciding for him too much). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Such a stupid trade..... Yes, Diaz needed to go, but he should have gotten more. Even if it was a 3rd or 4th round pick that would be better. Weise is too much of what we already have... a scrub. Does he even play when everyone is healthy or is he our 14th forward? Patch - DD - Gallagher Galch - Plek - Gionta Briere - Eller - Bourque Bournival - White - Prust Moen Weise Tell me again, what was the point of this? Bingo! my sentiments exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Bingo! my sentiments exactly. I fall on other side, really aint too excited about trade, but fine by me and would rather see how Weise looks than a 3rd round pick and first game with White looked good. And he should be motivated to earn a contract, so may help his play also? If he is a scrub, no big deal, but I doubt he will be as bad as that sounds and no Canuck fan I know sees him like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Such a stupid trade..... Yes, Diaz needed to go, but he should have gotten more. Even if it was a 3rd or 4th round pick that would be better. Weise is too much of what we already have... a scrub. Does he even play when everyone is healthy or is he our 14th forward? Patch - DD - Gallagher Galch - Plek - Gionta Briere - Eller - Bourque Bournival - White - Prust Moen Weise Tell me again, what was the point of this? The point of this, for me, is really obvious and has nothing to do with the forwards. It is to put Beaulieu on the ice permanently. Make him grow into a reliable NHLer before the end of this season. When I watch Beaulieu play, what I see is several beautiful flashes in the offensive zone with some shaky shifts in our zone and during the transition game. You can tell me how you want about learning this in the AHL, but I believe that he has reached a point where he needs NHL opposition to learn from his mistakes against tougher opponents. We drafted the kids, now let's grow them into dMEN. Tinordi's next. His time will come. Maybe not this season, but sooner than later. This, and getting an asset that can potentialy help the team this season instead of letting Diaz walk for free this summer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Joe, I think everyone is all for Beaulieu - and it's worth noting, amidst all the negativity, that the Habs are doing exactly what everyone wanted them to do in terms of bringing up at least one of the young blueliners and giving them quality minutes so as to better prepare them for next season. Moving Diaz makes some sense in that context, especially given his UFA status. The issue seems to be whether we should have gotten more, and thus whether the timing and player handling were such as to get us maximum return. Bench him for 11 games before trading him? Not waiting until Sochi further raised his profile? That seems a bit strange. If Weise is what we think he is, and if Diaz turns out to be a serviceable puck-moving defenceman, then we basically threw away a useful player: clearly, less than stellar asset management. The rise of Beaulieu doesn't justify throwing away serviceable assets for minimal return. Clearly, though, if Bergevin had a track record of solid, convincing moves behind him, this one probably wouldn't be attracting so much negativity. The negativity is a symptom of the fanbase's lack of confidence in MB - a jitteriness based on a combination of the absence of a track-record, minor but irritating mistakes like Briere, unsettling if unsubstantiated rumours (they don't like Subban, they only want to trade with the western conference, etc.). And then there is the wider history of this organization frittering away assets, which doesn't help either. I think much of the teeth-gnashing needs to be seen in these contexts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Joe, I think everyone is all for Beaulieu - and it's worth noting, amidst all the negativity, that the Habs are doing exactly what everyone wanted them to do in terms of bringing up at least one of the young blueliners and giving them quality minutes so as to better prepare them for next season. Moving Diaz makes some sense in that context, especially given his UFA status. The issue seems to be whether we should have gotten more, and thus whether the timing and player handling were such as to get us maximum return. Bench him for 11 games before trading him? Not waiting until Sochi further raised his profile? That seems a bit strange. If Weise is what we think he is, and if Diaz turns out to be a serviceable puck-moving defenceman, then we basically threw away a useful player: clearly, less than stellar asset management. The rise of Beaulieu doesn't justify throwing away serviceable assets for minimal return. Clearly, though, if Bergevin had a track record of solid, convincing moves behind him, this one probably wouldn't be attracting so much negativity. The negativity is a symptom of the fanbase's lack of confidence in MB - a jitteriness based on a combination of the absence of a track-record, minor but irritating mistakes like Briere, unsettling if unsubstantiated rumours (they don't like Subban, they only want to trade with the western conference, etc.). And then there is the wider history of this organization frittering away assets, which doesn't help either. I think much of the teeth-gnashing needs to be seen in these contexts. This is only the half full glass side. The half empty glass now : Diaz is not benched, takes a dirty hit, breaks a bone and misses 8-10 weeks. Would we be crying about how long it took Bergevin before trading Diaz instead of losing him for nothing ? I'm on the side of those who believe that receiving something in return is already a great return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 This is only the half full glass side. The half empty glass now : Diaz is not benched, takes a dirty hit, breaks a bone and misses 8-10 weeks. Would we be crying about how long it took Bergevin before trading Diaz instead of losing him for nothing ? I'm on the side of those who believe that receiving something in return is already a great return. This is GMing by fear. You don't make personnel decisions on the off-chance that someone could break their leg. Weise is a waiver pick-up who has fallen out of favour with Torts twice. He might have ended up back on waivers, and he certainly would have still been available after the Olympic break. Just because we could have got nothing for Diaz doesn't making whatever we got a good deal. Yes, it would be worse asset management to let him walk, but he could very plausibly look like an effective puck-mover in three weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Weise was a waiver pick up, yep, 2-3 years ago, was playing on a talented team, and being very productive while playing short minutes. So, he butted heads with Torts twice? What player coached by him hasn't? So tired of hearing about how valuable an asset Diaz was, do you Diaz fans not watch the games? Softy Smurf fans? Get a grip..... Glad the kushy soft D guy is gone, if he got to the puck first, then yeah, he might clear it, but otherwise, couldn't go in the corner and stay on his feet, couldn't hit, couldn't hit the net, and is 28 years old, looking to get 3 M per..... and could not at all keep up with playoff style hockey. Advanced stats, bullshit..... playoff time I would take Murray any day over Diaz.... Habs need to get bigger, tougher and faster, glad Bergevin made this deal. I suspect that maybe Briere, Gionta, Markov; Bouillion and Murray may all be traded for assets at the deadline, unless we are on a 10 game win streak, and I hope we are not so the house gets cleaned..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 This is GMing by fear. You don't make personnel decisions on the off-chance that someone could break their leg. Ah I see, so when Kaberle could have helped our powerplay we should have played him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 This is GMing by fear. You don't make personnel decisions on the off-chance that someone could break their leg. Weise is a waiver pick-up who has fallen out of favour with Torts twice. He might have ended up back on waivers, and he certainly would have still been available after the Olympic break. Just because we could have got nothing for Diaz doesn't making whatever we got a good deal. Yes, it would be worse asset management to let him walk, but he could very plausibly look like an effective puck-mover in three weeks. Apparently Diaz had a LBI before he was traded. May have had something to do with him not playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 This is GMing by fear. You don't make personnel decisions on the off-chance that someone could break their leg. Weise is a waiver pick-up who has fallen out of favour with Torts twice. He might have ended up back on waivers, and he certainly would have still been available after the Olympic break. Just because we could have got nothing for Diaz doesn't making whatever we got a good deal. Yes, it would be worse asset management to let him walk, but he could very plausibly look like an effective puck-mover in three weeks. I go with GMing by fear over coaching by tanking everyday. In my mind, benching him only means that the trade could have happen on Diaz's last game. The evaluation of his play by other gms didn't change because he was benched. I don't believe that Diaz was shopped only since a few days before the trade but weeks before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Joe, I think everyone is all for Beaulieu - and it's worth noting, amidst all the negativity, that the Habs are doing exactly what everyone wanted them to do in terms of bringing up at least one of the young blueliners and giving them quality minutes so as to better prepare them for next season. Moving Diaz makes some sense in that context, especially given his UFA status. The issue seems to be whether we should have gotten more, and thus whether the timing and player handling were such as to get us maximum return. Bench him for 11 games before trading him? Not waiting until Sochi further raised his profile? That seems a bit strange. If Weise is what we think he is, and if Diaz turns out to be a serviceable puck-moving defenceman, then we basically threw away a useful player: clearly, less than stellar asset management. The rise of Beaulieu doesn't justify throwing away serviceable assets for minimal return. Clearly, though, if Bergevin had a track record of solid, convincing moves behind him, this one probably wouldn't be attracting so much negativity. The negativity is a symptom of the fanbase's lack of confidence in MB - a jitteriness based on a combination of the absence of a track-record, minor but irritating mistakes like Briere, unsettling if unsubstantiated rumours (they don't like Subban, they only want to trade with the western conference, etc.). And then there is the wider history of this organization frittering away assets, which doesn't help either. I think much of the teeth-gnashing needs to be seen in these contexts. You don't speak for fanbase, I do get your point, but I think Bergevin has done fine (no great nor poor) since summer 2012 and I have little trepidation or jitteriness as you say. Maybe (most likely it seems) am in the minority, but just saying Bergevin isn't 'disliked' by all and as dumb as many like to portray him to be. Habs history is totally irrelevant to Bergevin as GM (other than French mandate) and cant just lump him in with past Mgmt failures yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Apparently Diaz had a LBI before he was traded. May have had something to do with him not playing. A what, Lobotomy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Am i the only one who thinks Diaz stinks?? sure he blocks shots.... but he bloody well has to or he has no place in the nhl. he is as soft as charmin toilet paper. he can't clear a crease, he almost always fails to come out of the corners with the puck when he's first in, he can't throw the body, he is the carbon copy of what a soft euro player was stereotyped as. he's a soft, soft defensive defensemen. clearly not the kind of defender we covet or any other nhl team with stanley cup aspirations.... especially when we have another softy in gorges. (at least gorges tries to act tough) were lucky we got wiese for him. and no a 3rd or 4th round pick would not be better. Such a stupid trade..... Yes, Diaz needed to go, but he should have gotten more. Even if it was a 3rd or 4th round pick that would be better. Weise is too much of what we already have... a scrub. Does he even play when everyone is healthy or is he our 14th forward? Patch - DD - Gallagher Galch - Plek - Gionta Briere - Eller - Bourque Bournival - White - Prust Moen Weise Tell me again, what was the point of this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I go with GMing by fear over coaching by tanking everyday. In my mind, benching him only means that the trade could have happen on Diaz's last game. The evaluation of his play by other gms didn't change because he was benched. I don't believe that Diaz was shopped only since a few days before the trade but weeks before. Bang-on Joseph. They mentioned Canuck scout had him pegged as a upgrade to help PP and being scratched is what likely prompted Gillis to look to deal coach's dog-house player for dog-house player. And funny someone mentioned "certainly" Weise could of been had as a waiver pick-up? Based on what I wonder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Am i the only one who thinks Diaz stinks?? No. I thought he was terrible since day 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I don't think he was "terrible" or "stunk" and quite a few times he looked like a top four defenceman for us. Unfortunately, most of those times were with Markov, who had the ability to make Mike Komisarek look like a $5M man. For me he was like Anton Stralman. You either fell in love with his great games or you hated him for his bad games. I've talked quite a lot about how I try my best to gauge a player by their average game, because that's what matters most. What kind of game will you get out of them in 82+ games? Diaz could have a 30 point season with Vancouver and it won't change my opinion that much. That all said, I do agree it feels like we didn't get the best possible return for Diaz, but I think viewing trades in a closed system is ignorant. For every person saying we should have got a third for him, how many GM's were actually offering a third round pick? It doesn't matter what someone got for a player in the past. It matters what we could have got for him in the week or so we were auditioning Beaulieu for a permanent spot. I preferred the idea of Diaz in a package, but maybe there was no package deal to be made. I don't know. Neither do we. That said let's see how Weise fits in on the team. From the sounds of it, "Freedom from Torts" is something he really wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 No. I thought he was terrible since day 1 Diaz is a guy who should be playing in Europe. I think he's too soft to be in the NHL. I remember countless times that he would make erred passes because he was scared to take a hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Diaz is a guy who should be playing in Europe. I think he's too soft to be in the NHL. I remember countless times that he would make erred passes because he was scared to take a hit. He is likely the softest defense man I have seen on the Habs that I can recall. He basically refuses to make contact with an opposing player even if it is the better play. He will likely play well at the Olympics on the big ice and less physical style of game, getting top minutes. And then people will lose their minds about how we should have held on to him to get a much much better player than Weise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I think Diaz was maybe a smidge tad tougher than Marc-Andre Bergeron. I'll give him that at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I think Diaz was maybe a smidge tad tougher than Marc-Andre Bergeron. I'll give him that at least. I KNOW even my grandmother is a "lot" tougher than MAB! No one is that soft, Nygren maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 The myth of the tough stay at home defenceman.... http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/habs-bought-into-a-myth-when-they-dealt-diaz/ As for those who dismiss this as just "fancy stats"... .tell it to Dave Tippett. It isn’t simple rhetoric. Dave Tippet learned this lesson and used data to buck conventional hockey wisdom while he was a GM in the IHL.“I’ll give you an example,” he told AZ Central. “We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenceman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can’t move the puck. “Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn’t defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he’s making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he’s only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenceman.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 The myth of the tough stay at home defenceman.... http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/habs-bought-into-a-myth-when-they-dealt-diaz/ As for those who dismiss this as just "fancy stats"... .tell it to Dave Tippett. These stats are not telling the results of these plays. If the players who only defends 20% of the time ends up giving up a goal 100% of this 20%, then I prefer the guy who's defending all the time without giving up a goal all the time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 These stats are not telling the results of these plays. If the players who only defends 20% of the time ends up giving up a goal 100% of this 20%, then I prefer the guy who's defending all the time without giving up a goal all the time... This is an extremely weak straw man. No one gives up a goal 100% of the time they're defending (and Diaz certainly doesn't). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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