Commandant Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 The Pens really seem to be underlining the value of coaching, specifically coaching that tailors its vision to the players' strengths. They completely turned around when they changed coaches - although canny and aggressive GMing also helped. As for 'three line attack,' that was sort of the idea that I hoped the Habs would realize - wave after wave of skillful puck-possession hockey. And we've done that at times. But there is no question that a team with Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel each on a different line is going to play that game better than a team whose lines are anchored by Pacioretty, Plekanec, and Eller. Sigh. The other thing is that the Pens' 'attack, attack, attack' system would be very hard for our D to handle. Markov, Emelin, and Pateryn would all break down very quickly under that kind of assault, even with Price back there puck-handling. I really hope Therrien is taking notes, both to see what lessons can be applied to our team and to see how to counter Pittsburgh's approach. Question: does anyone here now regret that we didn't get 'Conne Smythe' Kessel? Or is it safe to say the cost would have been crippling? Unlike the wise heads, I always liked Kessel and always suspected the various charges levelled against him were basically bullcrap. The guy is fast as a bullet, shoots like a cannon, and all he does is generate offence. Only in today's idiotic NHL culture would the fact that he doesn't work out terribly religiously make him a 'problem.' I wanted Kessel last year, and I still want him now. The cost wouldn't have been crippling. A late first rounder (Kapanen).... Equivalent (McCarron, Scherbak, or Juulsen) Scott Harrington ..... equivalent Tinordi Lottery protected first rounder.... I would have been fine with that The fact the draft pick only goes to the leafs in a year the Penguins make the playoffs means the deal wouldn't have crippled us, and Kessel might have been the sniper to prevent our december malaise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 The Pens really seem to be underlining the value of coaching, specifically coaching that tailors its vision to the players' strengths. They completely turned around when they changed coaches - although canny and aggressive GMing also helped. So is Sullivan 'interchangeable' with any other NHL coach? There are good unheralded coaches out there. I doubt Sylvain Lefebvre is one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I wanted Kessel last year, and I still want him now. The cost wouldn't have been crippling. A late first rounder (Kapanen).... Equivalent (McCarron, Scherbak, or Juulsen) Scott Harrington ..... equivalent Tinordi Lottery protected first rounder.... I would have been fine with that The fact the draft pick only goes to the leafs in a year the Penguins make the playoffs means the deal wouldn't have crippled us, and Kessel might have been the sniper to prevent our december malaise. You think Toronto trades Kessel to Montreal for the same price? I sure don't. Gotta pay the 'Same Division' tax, and then add on the 'Our Fans Will Literally Kill Us' tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Even if they did, how long would it have taken for him to be in le genius's doghouse? There is no Malkin or Crosby to insulate him in Montreal. Having said that, as long as the leafs were footing part of the cap hit, I would have traded for him in a second ... And than been frustrated when le genius drove him out of town. You think Toronto trades Kessel to Montreal for the same price? I sure don't. Gotta pay the 'Same Division' tax, and then add on the 'Our Fans Will Literally Kill Us' tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 So is Sullivan 'interchangeable' with any other NHL coach? There are good unheralded coaches out there. I doubt Sylvain Lefebvre is one of them. Yup Mike Johnston was just garbage. We've seen Sullivan be outcoached by Therrien in a playoff series in the past... 2002. You think Toronto trades Kessel to Montreal for the same price? I sure don't. Gotta pay the 'Same Division' tax, and then add on the 'Our Fans Will Literally Kill Us' tax. Meh throw in a 15% tax... ie Christian Thomas.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Even if they did, how long would it have taken for him to be in le genius's doghouse? There is no Malkin or Crosby to insulate him in Montreal. Having said that, as long as the leafs were footing part of the cap hit, I would have traded for him in a second ... And than been frustrated when le genius drove him out of town. Price, Subban, Patches with the 'C'... plenty of big names to deflect attention from Phil the Thrill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I wanted Phil cause I figured he's great at doing one thing... creating offense. Hes shitty at defense, but meh, in 2014-15 we gave up the fewest goals in the entire NHL... but couldn't score. Phil solved our issues and we could have made up for his deficiency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Yup Mike Johnston was just garbage. We've seen Sullivan be outcoached by Therrien in a playoff series in the past... 2002. I happen to think Therrien is an above-average coach; he's certainly exceeded my expectations for the roster each season before this past one. Not sure what relevance a series in 2002 has, but thanks for coming out. The point is that Sullivan is right for this particular group right now. Not any other coach from the mass of outwardly indistinguishable candidates would be, although there are likely others who would have the same success. Sullivan is not interchangeable with other coaches because he brings something different that works for this group. As the only team with a language policy, we're extremely limited in finding the right guy for our team. (And it sure doesn't look like that guy is in the system, like Sullivan was) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Price, Subban, Patches with the 'C'... plenty of big names to deflect attention from Phil the Thrill. I'm talking about forwards that would take the pressure off kessel having to be the key offensive guy. Patches by himself probably wouldn't have been enough - emergence of galchenyuk would have helped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Phil would have made Desharnais look great again. Again he's not on Crosby or Malkin's lines at even strength. Bonino follows Bozak as another middling centre Kessel has turned into a high point producer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 With Penguin's defensive game, in their own end particularly, does anyone here think of Jacques Martin's shot blocking Habs in those huge upsets over Washington and Pittsburg a few seasons back? I do... I think Kessel's story is awesome, he would have been just what the Dr. ordered for the Habs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 With Penguin's defensive game, in their own end particularly, does anyone here think of Jacques Martin's shot blocking Habs in those huge upsets over Washington and Pittsburg a few seasons back? I do... I think Kessel's story is awesome, he would have been just what the Dr. ordered for the Habs. Pittsburgh is handling shot blocking properly. Instead of having big lugs who can hardly skate to block the shots, they have quick feet defencemen where one can block a shot and the other can take the puck and move it up the ice. Pittsburgh's entire defence is based on getting the puck and moving it up. If it means blocking shots, they'll do it. Martin has definitely had a big part in this. Seriously, when the Pens went into the playoffs with Trevor Daley and Justin Schultz on their blueline I thought they were gonna get ripped apart. Instead, the coaches found use in players who weren't conventional defensive players and had them push their offensive strengths to become good defencemen. Especially Daley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I'd argue that Martin played a huge role in institutionalizing the shot-blocking culture in today's NHL. The 2010 team was a clinic in how you can neutralize superior teams by boxing out the slot and shot-blocking like crazy. That lesson was quickly absorbed by the entire league - for better or worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I'd argue that Martin played a huge role in institutionalizing the shot-blocking culture in today's NHL. The 2010 team was a clinic in how you can neutralize superior teams by boxing out the slot and shot-blocking like crazy. That lesson was quickly absorbed by the entire league - for better or worse. I wonder what the game would look like if shot blocking was banned or limited. Like an illegal goaltending penalty. Probably too difficult to implement with players arguing they just got in front of the shot and weren't blocking it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I wonder what the game would look like if shot blocking was banned or limited. Like an illegal goaltending penalty. Probably too difficult to implement with players arguing they just got in front of the shot and weren't blocking it. I actually think that's a great idea. You're right that it would be tricky to implement and apply, but a rule against 'intentionally' blocking shots could at least be effective in eliminating the more obvious forms of shot blocking. It might also enhance player safety by a fair degree. The problem, IMHO, would come about through hockey culture's massive discomfort with trusting referees to use their discretion. Heck, even referees themselves are leery of using their discretion, because of this idiotic idea that they should 'let the players decide it.' If we were to empower refs to make a snap judgement - 'that wasn't incidental blockage, you deliberately sought to use your body to block the shot' - we could see a lot more offence, which is what the league supposedly wants, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I think reducing goalie equipment would be much more effective in increasing offense and easier to implement than another subjective call for refs to debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I actually think that's a great idea. You're right that it would be tricky to implement and apply, but a rule against 'intentionally' blocking shots could at least be effective in eliminating the more obvious forms of shot blocking. It might also enhance player safety by a fair degree. The problem, IMHO, would come about through hockey culture's massive discomfort with trusting referees to use their discretion. Heck, even referees themselves are leery of using their discretion, because of this idiotic idea that they should 'let the players decide it.' If we were to empower refs to make a snap judgement - 'that wasn't incidental blockage, you deliberately sought to use your body to block the shot' - we could see a lot more offence, which is what the league supposedly wants, after all. The last time the referees called penalties like they were expected to was 2005-06. Scoring was up high and everyone seemed happy... but then a vocal group in the media and the old guard just grinded the discussion down whining about the constant powerplays instead of recognizing it's a process where players would eventually play smarter and not be penalized so much. Instead it was a whine about game stoppages. Suddenly the whistles went back into the pocket and scoring dropped. Nobody wants the game to play through the growing pains. With a team like Pittsburgh on the cusp of winning the Cup over a big punishing team like San Jose I expect the same old guard to come out and whine about the Penguins free form and ask the NHL let them start clutching and grabbing again. Brian Burke already pushed this once and it fell on deaf ears. Doesn't mean it always will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 The last time the referees called penalties like they were expected to was 2005-06. Scoring was up high and everyone seemed happy... but then a vocal group in the media and the old guard just grinded the discussion down whining about the constant powerplays instead of recognizing it's a process where players would eventually play smarter and not be penalized so much. Instead it was a whine about game stoppages. Suddenly the whistles went back into the pocket and scoring dropped. Nobody wants the game to play through the growing pains. With a team like Pittsburgh on the cusp of winning the Cup over a big punishing team like San Jose I expect the same old guard to come out and whine about the Penguins free form and ask the NHL let them start clutching and grabbing again. Brian Burke already pushed this once and it fell on deaf ears. Doesn't mean it always will. Yep. I remember after the lockout - yes, there were a crazy amount of penalties. But then the players did start to adjust, and for three or four years there, the quality of the play was as high as I've ever seen it. Since then, though, as you say, the clutching and grabbing and interference have crept back in, and the game is a snooze-fest as often as not. Let the refs call the existing rules on the book, and the entertainment value (and scoring) of the 'product' will increase exponentially. God, they're stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meller93 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I think reducing goalie equipment would be much more effective in increasing offense and easier to implement than another subjective call for refs to debate. I'm with you in this one, I think Marty Biron did a video on it and it stuck with me. Seems like it would be a great easy fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 With Penguin's defensive game, in their own end particularly, does anyone here think of Jacques Martin's shot blocking Habs in those huge upsets over Washington and Pittsburg a few seasons back? I do... I think Kessel's story is awesome, he would have been just what the Dr. ordered for the Habs. I see Jacques rope a dope all over this team. I also see them carry the puck in the neutral zone. No dump and chase unless it's for a line change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I'm with you in this one, I thanked Marty Biron did a video on it and it stuck with me. Seems like it would be a great easy fix. Corey Hirsch did a good one http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/hirsch-explains-how-to-fix-the-problem-with-goalie-equipment-2/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meller93 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Corey Hirsch did a good one http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/hirsch-explains-how-to-fix-the-problem-with-goalie-equipment-2/ Aye he's the one, not sure what made me think Biron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Corey Hirsch did a good one http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/hirsch-explains-how-to-fix-the-problem-with-goalie-equipment-2/ Yes, hopefully it dosent fall off the plate and they adopt changes next year, instead of trail run in AHL first (If they could even use different equipment than NHL? Not sure that is feasible, if a AHL goalie gets called up and goes back to old gear?). Cant see why owners, or skaters would oppose changes and seems majority (100%) of ex-goalies want to see it happen and say can be easily done without increasing risk of injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Could put pillows as pads on Price and he'd still be the best goalie in the league Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Could put pillows as pads on Price and he'd still be the best goalie in the league We shall see. How would a shrinking of equipment affect super tall goalies? More than others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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