Trade Subban traded to Nashville

[dlbalr]

Lol I wonder how many times Couture faced Subban..

During the regular season, 6 times in total. He had 4 goals and 5 assists in those games.

[DON]

During the regular season, 6 times in total. He had 4 goals and 5 assists in those games.

Whoops, more like licking his chops with Weber gone (unless dlbalr now points out that Couture scores even more on Nashville).

[dlbalr]

Whoops, more like licking his chops with Weber gone (unless dlbalr now points out that Couture scores even more on Nashville).

vs Nashville, regular season: 10 points in 19 games

vs Nashville, playoffs: 11 points in 7 games

(Disclaimer: I didn't look at the game logs to see if Weber was in every one of those regular season games.)

[Commandant]

Couture also plays on the sharks second line.... Subban isn't normally matched against the other team's second line. (Neither is Weber to be fair).

[Commandant]

Jake Muzzin is also better than P.K. Subban if we look at the selections of Team Canada as being the arbiter of who is the better player.

[Scott462]

Couture also plays on the sharks second line.... Subban isn't normally matched against the other team's second line. (Neither is Weber to be fair).

So basically Couture doesn't have a clue what he's talking about regarding Subban?

[Scott462]

During the regular season, 6 times in total. He had 4 goals and 5 assists in those games.

Thanks man

[Commandant]

So basically Couture doesn't have a clue what he's talking about regarding Subban?

Yes I'm sure when he goes to the bench, he closes his eyes and doesn't watch what is happening on the ice. He has no clue what happens when its not his shift.

[Scott462]

Yes I'm sure when he goes to the bench, he closes his eyes and doesn't watch what is happening on the ice. He has no clue what happens when its not his shift.

But Bergeron actually playing against Weber on the ice doesn't have a clue?

[DON]

Yup, 20g (I know goals isn't a fancy stat but still) is pretty good for a d-man these days and didn't they show a clip of Weber actually outskating Byron last year, so he isn't down to Crankshaft (who I got a kick out of as a Hab, simply for the entertainment value, not all-star performance) speed neither. And Subban stats showing improvement dosent mean he will get 65pts next year and 70 the year after, 100% pure speculation. It dosnt work like that in reality.

[dlbalr]

So basically Couture doesn't have a clue what he's talking about regarding Subban?

To be fair, they did play against each other for four years in junior (Couture with Ottawa, Subban with Belleville) so Couture has faced him more than the NHL games stat would suggest.

[Commandant]

But Bergeron actually playing against Weber on the ice doesn't have a clue?

A player from the other conference is not going to see the decline as easily.

I think that Bergeron is remembering the Weber he faced in the past, and hasn't played him often enough to notice that his mobility isn't what it used to be.

Thats what happens when players with big names decline. Those who play them a lot see it more than those who don't see the player as often.

[Scott462]

To be fair, they did play against each other for four years in junior (Couture with Ottawa, Subban with Belleville) so Couture has faced him more than the NHL games stat would suggest.

I stand corrected

[Scott462]

A player from the other conference is not going to see the decline as easily.

I think that Bergeron is remembering the Weber he faced in the past, and hasn't played him often enough to notice that his mobility isn't what it used to be.

Thats what happens when players with big names decline. Those who play them a lot see it more than those who don't see the player as often.

All I am doing is pointing out the fact that you believe what Couture is saying about PK even though you just admitted to him not even facing him if at all last year.

But a guy like Bergeron says something about a player he did face a couple times in Weber couldn't be true because he is probably thinking about the older Weber the 2012 Weber maybe?

Seems funky

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

All I am doing is pointing out the fact that you believe what Couture is saying about PK even though you just admitted to him not even facing him if at all last year.

But a guy like Bergeron says something about a player he did face a couple times in Weber couldn't be true because he is probably thinking about the older Weber the 2012 Weber maybe?

Seems funky

Maybe, but Commandant has a good point about an older player's accumulated reputation not always being fully up to date with present performance.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Older players will also define a player as tougher to play against based on physicality and not skill.

This is why GMs around the league are still clueless as to how a defence with Daley and Schultz could win the Cup.

[Commandant]

Older players will also define a player as tougher to play against based on physicality and not skill.

This is why GMs around the league are still clueless as to how a defence with Daley and Schultz could win the Cup.

Thats true.

Another point (on both Couture and Bergeron in fairness), is that a player is never going to say to the media... "this player is total shit".... they are always going to praise fellow players on other teams.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

Thats not a fact, thats an opinion.

And its an opinion that is not supported by the analytics, which show that Weber gives up way more shots and scoring chances against when he is on the ice than Subban does. Those analytics, they are actual objective facts about past events.

PK Subban had the most giveaways in the league and we're supposed to think he's a reliable pillar back there. I know people love that stat but wait, there's more! The rest of the top 10 were pretty good players as well. The difference? They ALL played 82 games. PK Subban played 68 games last season and still had the most turnovers in the entire league. I guess he had the puck on his stick a lot during those 14 games he missed.

1.5+ giveaways per game and the next nearest is 1.2.

Are you really going to argue that there's not just a little something wrong there? I find it extremely hard to believe that he had the puck on his stick more than every other player in the league, resulting in the most turnovers. Especially when factoring in those 14 games missed.

[illWill]

PK Subban had the most giveaways in the league and we're supposed to think he's a reliable pillar back there. I know people love that stat but wait, there's more! The rest of the top 10 were pretty good players as well. The difference? They ALL played 82 games. PK Subban played 68 games last season and still had the most turnovers in the entire league. I guess he had the puck on his stick a lot during those 14 games he missed.

1.5+ giveaways per game and the next nearest is 1.2.

Are you really going to argue that there's not just a little something wrong there? I find it extremely hard to believe that he had the puck on his stick more than every other player in the league, resulting in the most turnovers. Especially when factoring in those 14 games missed.

*Insert analytical stat here* maybe even an eye test as well just to get the point home

[Commandant]

PK Subban had the most giveaways in the league and we're supposed to think he's a reliable pillar back there. I know people love that stat but wait, there's more! The rest of the top 10 were pretty good players as well. The difference? They ALL played 82 games. PK Subban played 68 games last season and still had the most turnovers in the entire league. I guess he had the puck on his stick a lot during those 14 games he missed.

1.5+ giveaways per game and the next nearest is 1.2.

Are you really going to argue that there's not just a little something wrong there? I find it extremely hard to believe that he had the puck on his stick more than every other player in the league, resulting in the most turnovers. Especially when factoring in those 14 games missed.

1) turnovers are known to not be consistent rink to rink.... ever wonder why montreal has 35-40% more turnovers at home than on the road on a year in year out basis.

2) Subban touched the puck 600 more times than Weber last year. So yes he had the puck considerably more. Thats also having the puck 600 times more despite playing those 14 games less.

Subban turned the puck over 0.2% more times per touch than Weber did. (source Chris Boucher of Sportlogiq tweeted it).

3) The fact is Subban got the puck out of his own zone more often than weber, despite the fact he turned it over 0.2% more, he had the puck way often than Weber... so he gets the puck up the ice quicker.

Again, what matters... how many shots and scoring chances given up... or how many giveaways? In my book, the shots and scoring chances 100%. Why do I care about more giveaways if its not leading to more chances for the other team... and far and away, Weber gave up more chances, why? Cause he has the puck less often. He doesn't have subban's elite quickness to get to loose pucks. He doesn't have subban's ability to skate the puck out of his end.

Defensive reliability is preventing the other team from getting shots and scoring chances on your goalie, and Subban has done a much better job than Weber at that.

[Guest Stogey24]

How many times do the same things have to be gone over. CK, Keep reachin bud

[xXx..CK..xXx]

1) turnovers are known to not be consistent rink to rink.... ever wonder why montreal has 35-40% more turnovers at home than on the road on a year in year out basis.

2) Subban touched the puck 600 more times than Weber last year. So yes he had the puck considerably more. Thats also having the puck 600 times more despite playing those 14 games less.

Subban turned the puck over 0.2% more times per touch than Weber did. (source Chris Boucher of Sportlogiq tweeted it).

3) The fact is Subban got the puck out of his own zone more often than weber, despite the fact he turned it over 0.2% more, he had the puck way often than Weber... so he gets the puck up the ice quicker.

Again, what matters... how many shots and scoring chances given up... or how many giveaways? In my book, the shots and scoring chances 100%. Why do I care about more giveaways if its not leading to more chances for the other team... and far and away, Weber gave up more chances, why? Cause he has the puck less often. He doesn't have subban's elite quickness to get to loose pucks. He doesn't have subban's ability to skate the puck out of his end.

Defensive reliability is preventing the other team from getting shots and scoring chances on your goalie, and Subban has done a much better job than Weber at that.

Of course Subban touched the puck more than Weber, Weber was something like 200th in turnovers. What I was arguing was against the fact that all these elite players are the ones who supposedly turn it over the most and yet Subban turns it over more than Joe Thornton and company who passes the puck with his eyes closed before thinking shoot.

I've heard how everyone claims that the turnover stat means nothing and all the reasons that it doesn't but there's definitely something wrong with the picture here when he turns it over the most out of anyone in the league with 14 less games played.

Subban was on the ice for less shots and less scoring chances? How about goals that resulted off of either one's turnovers? If the turnovers are in high risk areas, then they may not only lead to a scoring chance, the puck ends up in the back of your net. I think that matters more than shots against and even the amount of scoring chances. Those scoring chances and shots aren't associated with the turnovers that led to them.

PK Subban is a star and that's not the argument here. The argument is that he, just like any other star, has his deficiencies. A lot of these turnovers can be combined with the eye test and they often happen in high risk areas with him. They've happened at the offensive blue line, they've happened at the defensive blue line and they've happened from behind our own net to players who are all alone right in front of out net. More than once. Sure, everyone turns it over in these areas but when you are the player who your team relies on the most, you need to shore up those type of deficiencies.

I could have argued that Subban turns it over way too much without even having known that he led the league in turnovers. That reality is just the cherry on the top to use your analogy.

I'm the one reaching and yet people are basically arguing that the fact he led the league in turnovers means that he is such an amazing player.

Then you have those who say Therrien's system held PK Subban back. Therrien's system held Subban back from touching the puck 600 more times than Weber despite playing 14 less games? 600 more touches than Weber and the same amount of points? Talk about more efficient.

These stats aren't the be all end all of everything but I can combine them with the eye test from last season where many have agreed that it was a down year/off year for him and yet we are trying to defend these stats as if they mean nothing. Rink bias? Sure. But half the rinks in the league have it.

Here's another way to look at it. We were one of the worst teams in the league last year. Maybe that's why he had so many turnovers. Maybe it was the other way around.

So Commandant, if these turnover stats mean nothing due to rink bias, what are PK Subban's deficiencies? Being too good?

We know Weber's thanks to you. Where does Subban need to improve?

[Guest Stogey24]

Montreal plays a dump and chase system. Maybe a little less now than before, but its definitely not possession based. So basically a chip off the glass, a dump in on a rush, or the fact that Therrien likes to stretch the neutral zone with passes need to all be taken into account.

The system a team runs really comes into play when your taking a mickey mouse stat like turnovers into consideration.

I would almost guarantee you won't see Subban with as many 'turnovers' in playing in Nashville.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Yes, Subban is prone to turnovers.

Yes, Subban has cost us a few goals over the years.

Yes, Subban had a down season.

No, none of this justifies the trade, none of this makes Weber better, none of this should make you sleep better at night, and none of this was stopping Montreal from being contenders. Aside from "Carey Price doesn't stop the puck every time" looking at Subban's play with the Canadiens in the past five years is the last thing anyone should be looking at to criticize.

[Scott462]

Subban also takes a lot more penalties than Weber and considering Shea style I think that pretty telling and makes Weber the more safer defender.

In the end you always want your best player on the ice against the top comp which Weber is on a continual bases and more often in the defending zone, which makes sense his possession stats would take a hit.