Trade Subban traded to Nashville

[xXx..CK..xXx]

I don't know how many times Commandant has to demonstrate Team Canada's track record of dubious choices before people stop trotting out this lame-ass argument. Two words for you: Adam Foote.

It's sad, really, how weak the pro-Weber arguments are. They rest on nebulous claims about "the room" (easily refuted by showing the room to have been just fine until Price went down and losing became chronic) and the supposedly supreme wisdom of the Old Boys choosing Team Canada. Meanwhile, all the statistical evidence, age and contract, playoff history, the eye-test, and the overwhelming majority of commentators both amateur and professional on The Trade agree that Montreal fell on its face. But if we desperately want management to be right, then I suppose we have to cling to whatever scraps of evidence we can find.

I'm usually positive and optimistic about every single one of our players while they are on our team but I watched last season even though it was painful and Subban sucked. For all of the amazing things he did well, he did a lot of bad. Maybe he was trying too hard but that goes against the argument that you should just let Subban be Subban.

Once again I'm not the type to attack any of our players but I can remember about 15-20 games where I had something to say out loud about Subban to anyone who was willing to listen. Eller was probably second with some of his bonehead plays. Saying that out loud, maybe MB did pay a little too much attention to last season.

Sure, argue that it was an outlier but this eye test your are talking about does not fit the analytics from last season. Should we trade him based on one season? Heck no. Weber will be more reliable though while producing points and that's a fact.

On the other side of things, I remember some media outlets claiming that Weber was already on decline after the Suter trade and that Suter was actually the stronger partner in his last season there. This was already years ago so if true, I agree that it does not bode well for us. I think it was some of the same analysts who said Mike Green would eventually be a 50 goal scorer though.

[Meller93]

I'm usually positive and optimistic about every single one of our players while they are on our team but I watched last season even though it was painful and Subban sucked. For all of the amazing things he did well, he did a lot of bad. Maybe he was trying too hard but that goes against the argument that you should just let Subban be Subban.

Sure, argue that it was an outlier but this eye test your are talking about does not fit the analytics from last season. Should we trade him based on one season, heck no. Weber will be more reliable though while producing points and that's a fact.

On the other side of things, I remember some media outlets claiming that Weber was already on decline after the Suter trade and that Suter was actually the stronger partner in his last season there. This was already years ago so if true, I agree that it does not bode well for us.

Simply stating something doesn't make it true.

A fact isn't made a fact just because you say it. Why will Weber be more reliable? Sure he'll turn the puck over less. He'll also have the puck less.

You couldn't rely on him to make as many zone exits though. You couldn't rely on him to make an end to end rush and electrify his team. You could rely on him to be a steady force in front of Price and give his team confidence.

The two players are very different, and will reliably perform their own strengths better.

[Guest Stogey24]

Subban sucked? Wow, go home man.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

Subban doesn't do these end to end rushes like everyone claims. It's partly system but it's partly him as well. By the 3rd guy, he'll cough it up 9 times out of 10 or feel like he has nowhere to go.

I'm not going to argue over a word but it depends on your definition of reliable. I consider the stay at home defenseman of a pairing the more reliable player 10 times out of 10. Who's more reliable, Alex Galchenyuk or Tomas Plekanec? Perhaps it depends on your definition once again but I know my pick.

Subban electrifying the crowd comes with the consequence of electrifying the other team when he coughs it up. Partly my point. Perhaps Weber will have us hemmed into our own zone more often but it will be as a result of low risk plays. That's what I meant by more reliable.

Although I forgot, the plays are NOT high risk because he is PK Subban so my point is moot.

Subban sucked? Wow, go home man.

Subban sucked for Subban. I have no regrets saying it and clearly you're forgetting last season. Perhaps you're a little too sensitive from the other posters who have attacked Subban. He had a really bad year despite his offensive numbers. That's my point. I like Subban but he stood out in a negative way as well last season. I'm not saying anything that isn't true.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Subban had a sub-par season - probably, indeed, from trying too hard to make things happen, a classic response to a melt-down. Of course, even in that sub-par season, he generated a ton of offence and was a puck-possession beast. And he STILL out-produced Weber offensively by a considerable margin, without the benefit of a stud partner to boot.

Weber will NOT be 'more reliable' at producing points. Only goals.

[Meller93]

Subban doesn't do these end to end rushes like everyone claims. It's partly system but it's partly him as well. By the 3rd guy, he'll cough it up 9 times out of 10 or feel like he has nowhere to go.

I'm not going to argue over a word but it depends on your definition of reliable. I consider the stay at home defenseman of a pairing the more reliable player 10 times out of 10. Who's more reliable, Alex Galchenyuk or Tomas Plekanec? Perhaps it depends on your definition once again but I know my pick.

Subban electrifying the crowd comes with the consequence of electrifying the other team when he coughs it up. Partly my point. Perhaps Weber will have us hemmed into our own zone more often but it will be as a result of low risk plays. That's what I meant by more reliable.

Although I forgot, the plays are NOT high risk because he is PK Subban so my point is moot.

Subvan sucked for Subban. I have no regrets saying it and clearly you're forgetting last season. Perhaps you're a little too sensitive from the other posters who have attacked Subban. He had a really bad year despite his offensive numbers. That's my point. I like Subban but he stood out in a negative way as well last season. I'm not saying anything that isn't true.

Sure Subban had bad moments. The whole team did. I still think he was the team's best defenseman as a whole. Saying he sucked is pretty close to outrageous, and saying Subban sucked for Subban isn't saying a whole lot. He still posted 51 points, and his advanced stats back him up if you bother with them. The team collapsed, and when Subban tried to lift them all up he did too.

I'm not really sensitive towards it, I'm more or less amazed that their are arguments against Subban being an elite defenseman. The only argument seems to be "he has giveaways" and "team Canada didn't play him.

Yea they never even picked Brett Burns either. So what?

[Guest Stogey24]

Subban doesn't do these end to end rushes like everyone claims. It's partly system but it's partly him as well. By the 3rd guy, he'll cough it up 9 times out of 10 or feel like he has nowhere to go.

I'm not going to argue over a word but it depends on your definition of reliable. I consider the stay at home defenseman of a pairing the more reliable player 10 times out of 10. Who's more reliable, Alex Galchenyuk or Tomas Plekanec? Perhaps it depends on your definition once again but I know my pick.

Subban electrifying the crowd comes with the consequence of electrifying the other team when he coughs it up. Partly my point. Perhaps Weber will have us hemmed into our own zone more often but it will be as a result of low risk plays. That's what I meant by more reliable.

Although I forgot, the plays are NOT high risk because he is PK Subban so my point is moot.

Subban sucked for Subban. I have no regrets saying it and clearly you're forgetting last season. Perhaps you're a little too sensitive from the other posters who have attacked Subban. He had a really bad year despite his offensive numbers. That's my point. I like Subban but he stood out in a negative way as well last season. I'm not saying anything that isn't true.

Well I missed probably 5 games all year. If Subban sucked, your in for a rude awakening with Weber.

25pts in last 30 games with the Habs. Fackin guys garbage

[illWill]

It's sad, really, how weak the pro-Weber arguments are. They rest on nebulous claims about "the room" (easily refuted by showing the room to have been just fine until Price went down and losing became chronic) and the supposedly supreme wisdom of the Old Boys choosing Team Canada. Meanwhile, all the statistical evidence, age and contract, playoff history, the eye-test, and the overwhelming majority of commentators both amateur and professional on The Trade agree that Montreal fell on its face. But if we desperately want management to be right, then I suppose we have to cling to whatever scraps of evidence we can find.

Statistical evidence? Weber averages 17.8 goals per 82 game season, while Subban averages 11.90. That's like 45 % more goals per season. I thought this team needed to score more, especially on the powerplay where a bulk of Weber's goals come from. And throwing out point totals, Weber is 47.6 per 82 game season and Subban has 52.5. So the point totals aren't as much of a discrepancy as the goal totals. In the playoffs, Weber has a higher goal per game rate than he does in the regular season and so does Subban, who also has a higher points per game. To me we got a better goal scorer instead of a better play maker. And we are talking as recent as last season, Weber 20 goals to Subban's 6.

Age? Yes Weber is 3 years and 9 months older.....we're not talking a rookie vs a washed up veteran.

Contract? It's highly debatable whose contract is better. You can even argue that both work better for their respective teams. The 10 year number on Weber's contract is thrown around as if he is going to be hobbling around the ice at 40 years old for the Habs. 10 years is an eternity in the NHL and the new CBA is due before then. Because his contract is front loaded, it's very likely he will retire before the duration of the contract, which Nashville is on the hook for cap wise. So to say 10 years left of Weber at that cap hit is not likely. I think people underestimate that extra 1.2 million per year in savings, as if it's mere scraps. Subban is going to be the highest paid defenseman in the entire league for 3 more years until Doughty and Karlsson are due for a new deal. The highest paid....Is he going to be the best defenseman in the league for that period of time?

The eye test? You mean a subjective opinion whereas many have differing opinions? Personally I think Subban is amazing but that's because I've watched 90% of the games he's played. I can probably count on two hands how many games I've seen Weber play, and I'm sure most are in a similar boat. There's a reason why he has been a captain for 6 years and won the best leader in hockey trophy just last season. I don't like bringing up the team Canada selection because I don't necessarily believe they pick the best players available and they should. However they do select who they think comprises the best team. That means who fits into whatever it is they are trying to do the best.

Would I have made the trade myself? No. Am I going to shit all over management because I don't like it? Not until it is proven to be the wrong move. If they deemed that we need a rugged armor plated Hummer instead of a sleek fast Ferrari (credit to PMAC), they are within their rights to make that judgement call. For it is their job and livelihood to evaluate their players and all the inter workings associated with them. It's not being blind dumb sheep to follow them and back every move they make, it's believing in people that want the same thing that we all want. The team has put up impressive results under this management group so they deserve the benefit of the doubt at this point in time. If say in 1 year, 3 years, 5 years etc, things have gone terribly, that is the time to dump on them.

[DON]

Nice post sir.

[habs rule]

Nice post sir.

nice to see you agree with someone

[Scott462]

Yep! Good post Will

Edited August 5, 2016 by Scott462

[xXx..CK..xXx]

Sure Subban had bad moments. The whole team did. I still think he was the team's best defenseman as a whole. Saying he sucked is pretty close to outrageous, and saying Subban sucked for Subban isn't saying a whole lot. He still posted 51 points, and his advanced stats back him up if you bother with them. The team collapsed, and when Subban tried to lift them all up he did too.

I'm not really sensitive towards it, I'm more or less amazed that their are arguments against Subban being an elite defenseman. The only argument seems to be "he has giveaways" and "team Canada didn't play him.

Yea they never even picked Brett Burns either. So what?

I wasn't calling you sensitive, I was saying it to Stogey. Either way, I didn't mean it personally.

No one said he wasn't elite but people are missing the point of my post. I'm talking about how Weber brings offense and in my opinion is more reliable defensively in the sense that he takes less risk. To me that's a positive. To someone else that's a negative.

The only response I've ever heard when someone claims Subban is not the greatest defensively is something along the lines of "he's actually not that bad defensively". Well okay then, I'll take your word for it.

Subban made A LOT of bonehead plays last season. So did Eller, but I liked a lot of other things Eller brought to the table in reality.

Subban was our best defenseman last season, but he had his moments and I am truly not lying to you when I argue that Beaulieu looked better than him for at least 20% of the games. When you compare their salary, that's not a great thing.

It might sound like I'm anti Subban but I'm really not. I do feel people are tending to overlook things when they state that there are only two reasons to defend this trade or that there were "no hockey reasons" for it.

I wish I had more time right now.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

I'm going to put it out there without any posters' names, but if you think Weber is a better defenseman than PK because he's a Team Canada bag lapper...YOU...ARE...A...MORON.

[BCHabnut]

One thing I feel confident standing behind is that last season montreal had one game changing player who made the entire team better and was worthy of being top 3 in salary in the entire NHL. His name was Carey Price.

Crosby makes Armstrong Hornqvist etc better

Towes makes shaw better

Ovie scores goals like an animal. Doesn't need to make anybody better.

Subban was the 5th highest paid player in the league. Might have been 3rd highest. I'm not sure when Kane and towes money started. When he held out for 9 million, he said I'm the 3rd best hockey player on earth and you can play me with Emelin and it won't matter.

I didnt like the trade. I'm sick over it, but I'm also not blind to some of the negatives that suban brought. His cap hit being about the only one. Habs29. I know he should have signed a 12 year front loaded thing. His breakout season was the first year of his bridge contract so I don't lament that as much. I do agree with you in hindsight, but at the time the bridge was signed, I wasn't against it.

Weber is way overpaid too. And less of a player. But he is tradable. Subban was overpaid and would have been untradable

[Guest Stogey24]

This trade working out somewhat hinges on Beaulieu taking a giant leap.

Josi was the mailman in Nashville and Alleviated alot of the puck carrying pressure from Shea... Things could get pretty interested if Weber has to play a role he's not built for.

[Scott462]

I agree with that, I think this year is going to be a big year for Beaulieu and hopefully he makes the most of it. I think having a guy like Weber behind him should help him a lot to feel more comfortable about taking risks and making the mistake so he can learn and grow.

Now if he busts then the habs might be in a bit of trouble having to lean on Markov a bit too much.

Here is hoping both Beau and Mikhail can become studs for us

[DON]

nice to see you agree with someone

Come on, why cant we all just get along...and when are you gonna take the Trump for Prime Minister banner off your front lawn.

[DON]

I'm going to put it out there without any posters' names, but if you think Weber is a better defenseman than PK because he's a Team Canada bag lapper...YOU...ARE...A...MORON.

Bag lapper, some American term is it? Weber is on Team Canada because some people must think he is better fit than Subban...once again (and if I recall the last time Subban was a waterboy, a undefeated Gold Medal winning team did just fine).

The last bit sounds like quite a lame childish remark, you must be able to come up with something better than that for an insult.

[habs rule]

Come on, why cant we all just get along...and when are you gonna take the Trump for Prime Minister banner off your front lawn.

oooh we are touchy today. How's that pot stirring going?

[DON]

Tiring and sweet jesus mid-October is still a long ways off.

But, I think I am wearing the cynics down and I hear #6 jerseys are starting to fly off the shelves!

Just curious, does NHL Centreice cover all 82 of your Predator games?

[Scott462]

Since this is really a thread about Subban.

Good night sweet prince.

Good luck in Nashville

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lZIDkjcn594

[Commandant]

Sure, argue that it was an outlier but this eye test your are talking about does not fit the analytics from last season. Should we trade him based on one season? Heck no. Weber will be more reliable though while producing points and that's a fact.

Thats not a fact, thats an opinion.

And its an opinion that is not supported by the analytics, which show that Weber gives up way more shots and scoring chances against when he is on the ice than Subban does. Those analytics, they are actual objective facts about past events.

[Commandant]

In an interview with couture, he was asked who the toughest D-men to play against are. He mentioned Subban, but no Weber.

I doubt many players on that San Jose team think Weber is tough to play against. They torched him repeatedly for 7 games.

Of course this is much more damning than guys like Patrice Bergeron who played Weber twice last year saying he's tough to play against, cause when you see a guy 2 times out of 82 games, you may not see that he's declined and he may be living off the reputation. A reputation from when he was younger, quicker, and legitimately a top 5 D in the NHL.

[Scott462]

Lol I wonder how many times Couture faced Subban..

[Commandant]

All the evidence stastical suggests Subban is either improving in a category, or at the very least staying the same. There is no evidence that he has regressed, unlike Weber. He's not living off his reputation in the same way.

Thats the whole point Weber was elite 4 years ago. He isn't at that same level today.

Subban is still the same defenceman he was (or is better)... the same reputation concern doesn't come into play. If anything Subban's reputation is worse than his actual play.