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What goes around comes around Carolina pay back Kotkaniemi offer sheet


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31 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

Pettersson's price will be well above that $6.1M threshold, even on a bridge deal.  And Vancouver has a fair bit of cap room; they'll match.

 

Mittelstadt is someone that should be around $2M at most, Patrick less than that, and Brown should be signing the type of deal that Poehling did.  Buffalo has ample cap space to match for Mittelstadt while Ottawa would match on Brown out of principle (though he has been available in a trade for the better part of a year).  Patrick is a bit more of a viable target as Vegas has cap issues but he's coming off a horrific season after not playing the year before.  He's basically a fourth liner at this point.

 

All of these players would cost picks from 2022.

Any UFA you sign, you need two factors to be successful.
1) Team is in cap trouble

2) how much you are willing yo overpay by.

 

hoping the other team or owner have money to match doesn’t work. Philly tried it with Nashville on a monster out lay of cash and bonuses and it didn’t work. Even in comparison to Philly,  MB’s attempt at the RFA offer to Aho was laughable - and most felt that it would be matched without hesitation.

 

You have to overpay. If the Avs hadn’t been smart on locking up Makar, I would absolutely been willing to offer him $10.5m (rather pay that to a young norris candidate dman at the start of his career, than a goalie getting close to the backend - but I digress). I’d be willing to give up the truckload of picks as well ****IF*** I was confident that we are a solid playoff team - which I’m not.

 

But you have to overpay AND take the risk that the player doesn’t ever realize his cap hit. But I’d rather overpay for a KK than a Savard or Alzner and get players who are being paid for past performance and what they have done, rather than for what they will do.

 

according to Lebrun, the canes actually tried to trade for KK, but it sounds like they couldn’t reach an agreement with the “take it or leave it” Bergevin. Does the Aho offer sheet play a part in their RFA offer sheet?  sure.  But you don’t give up a 1st and a 3rd and that much money if you don’t think the player will break out. They obviously feel that KK will play up to the salary, and that he is worth more than a 1st or a 3rd pick. If Montreal matches, they also get a measure of revenge. Win-win scenario for the canes. On the other hand MB’a offer sheet was more of a kobayashi maru scenario. 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

Retain Allen - check

Fill in for Weber - check (upgrade from Weber was always a long shot)

Add some scoring - check

You really think that Savard is a fill in for Weber??? I think even Danault will triple Savard’s goal output - and I have very low expectations on Danault’s goal production.

 

as far as retain Allen, I think Price did MB’s job for him.

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4 hours ago, GHT120 said:

It is a very complex decision for MB et al.

 

It most certainly is complex. I would much rather have KK than a late 1st and 3rd round pick. But then there is the salary cap thing.  It's one thing to overpay KK for next year but for how many years will they have to overpay KK? 

 

Best case scenario, they match and KK has a great year or they don't match and Carolina stinks this year (unlikely) and maybe get a couple decent 1st round picks in what is supposed to be an excellent draft year. 

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Ok - off season so far.

1. 1st round puck - fail

2. Upgrading the D - fail 

3. losses vs gains from last year - fail

4.when most teams are making room, to avoid RFA offer sheets, or signing their RFA’s -MB gets caught with his pants down - fail 

 

1. Let's check back in 3-4 years, way too early to say this

2. Who were you going to replace Weber with?

3. I guess they could have paid Danault 5.5M to keep him then they wouldn't have to worry about matching Carolina's offer as they simply couldn't

4. Who really know what happens in negotiations, if he gave KK too much then I am guessing many here would still complain

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Ok - off season so far.

1. 1st round puck - fail

2. Upgrading the D - fail 

3. losses vs gains from last year - fail

4.when most teams are making room, to avoid RFA offer sheets, or signing their RFA’s -MB gets caught with his pants down - fail 

 

Like I said:

3 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

haters will hate :spamafote:

 

Let's move on

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2 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Yeah, signing a $20 bonus is HUGE insult. Dumb of him to demand more of the guaranteed $6m salary as a bonus - instead of signing before Waddell scan say screw you MB 🙄

Like I said:

3 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

haters will hate :spamafote:

 

Kotkaniemi didn't have to sign that offer sheet, he chose to sign it. Aho's number is 20, that is a reason that media insiders are saying is a shot back at MB. Kotkaniemi thought it either funny or smart to sign to it, kind of like: "In your face Marc!"

 

Has have traded and gotten rid of better player for far less. Let the Kid be happy in Carolina. He deserves it

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2 hours ago, ehjay said:

it seems to me the offer sheet is a play u pull for hate... since the start of it, Oil cans and Penner after he Ducks win. Yet I enjoy the h8 hockey clubs can get for one another alot :D

yeah, knee jerk reaction from me... but I am in a pissy modd (if you haven't clued in yet)

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2 hours ago, dlbalr said:

 

Pettersson's price will be well above that $6.1M threshold, even on a bridge deal.  And Vancouver has a fair bit of cap room; they'll match.

 

Mittelstadt is someone that should be around $2M at most, Patrick less than that, and Brown should be signing the type of deal that Poehling did.  Buffalo has ample cap space to match for Mittelstadt while Ottawa would match on Brown out of principle (though he has been available in a trade for the better part of a year).  Patrick is a bit more of a viable target as Vegas has cap issues but he's coming off a horrific season after not playing the year before.  He's basically a fourth liner at this point.

 

All of these players would cost picks from 2022.

yes, but we have two extra picks (from the KK OF) to lessen the blow

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Any UFA you sign, you need two factors to be successful.
1) Team is in cap trouble

2) how much you are willing yo overpay by.

 

hoping the other team or owner have money to match doesn’t work. Philly tried it with Nashville on a monster out lay of cash and bonuses and it didn’t work. Even in comparison to Philly,  MB’s attempt at the RFA offer to Aho was laughable - and most felt that it would be matched without hesitation.

 

You have to overpay. If the Avs hadn’t been smart on locking up Makar, I would absolutely been willing to offer him $10.5m (rather pay that to a young norris candidate dman at the start of his career, than a goalie getting close to the backend - but I digress). I’d be willing to give up the truckload of picks as well ****IF*** I was confident that we are a solid playoff team - which I’m not.

 

But you have to overpay AND take the risk that the player doesn’t ever realize his cap hit. But I’d rather overpay for a KK than a Savard or Alzner and get players who are being paid for past performance and what they have done, rather than for what they will do.

 

according to Lebrun, the canes actually tried to trade for KK, but it sounds like they couldn’t reach an agreement with the “take it or leave it” Bergevin. Does the Aho offer sheet play a part in their RFA offer sheet?  sure.  But you don’t give up a 1st and a 3rd and that much money if you don’t think the player will break out. They obviously feel that KK will play up to the salary, and that he is worth more than a 1st or a 3rd pick. If Montreal matches, they also get a measure of revenge. Win-win scenario for the canes. On the other hand MB’a offer sheet was more of a kobayashi maru scenario. 

 

 

 

 

give it up buddy, KK is not worth $6.1M for two years. Let him go and be happy.

 

In a break up, it only lakes one that decides to leave; it doen't need to be mutual

 

KK has checked out of Montreal

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1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

1. Let's check back in 3-4 years, way too early to say this

2. Who were you going to replace Weber with?

3. I guess they could have paid Danault 5.5M to keep him then they wouldn't have to worry about matching Carolina's offer as they simply couldn't

4. Who really know what happens in negotiations, if he gave KK too much then I am guessing many here would still complain

 

 

 

 

 

I guess Kotkaniemi doesn't see himself as a checking line center producing 50 points, like Danault was. This provides him a chance to play in a scoring line and becoming more valuable ($$$)

 

Cap friendly has him centering the third line, but I would swap him for Trocheck:

 

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1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

1. Let's check back in 3-4 years, way too early to say this

2. Who were you going to replace Weber with?

3. I guess they could have paid Danault 5.5M to keep him then they wouldn't have to worry about matching Carolina's offer as they simply couldn't

4. Who really know what happens in negotiations, if he gave KK too much then I am guessing many here would still complain

 

 

 

 

I didn’t want Danault back at his salary. But I would definitely have given Perry two years. 
 

we needed an offensive dman, and we got a one goal man.  As far as offence goes, there were other options out there. We have 3 defensive dmen in Edmondson, Chiarot, and Savard. That’s a lot of money tied up on bigoted dimensional dmen.  KK should have been signed, before going after Hoffman.

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14 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

give it up buddy, KK is not worth $6.1M for two years. Let him go and be happy.

 

In a break up, it only lakes one that decides to leave; it doen't need to be mutual

 

KK has checked out of Montreal

Yeah, like Aho checked out of Carolina right🙄

 

you wanted a much older, useless Gustafson who is a pylon back,  but you are confident that a 21 yr old KK, who was rushed into the league won’t be worth $6.1m in the future?

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3 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Yeah, like Aho checked out of Carolina right🙄

 

you wanted a much older, useless Gustafson who is a pylon back,  but you are confident that a 21 yr old KK, who was rushed into the league won’t be worth $6.1m in the future?

 

ok, you want to continue this, let's do it.

 

can you please share what your lineup will be with a $6.1M/2yr Kotkaniemi? Who will be cut/traded to make room under the cap?

 

We can start there

 

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8 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Yeah, like Aho checked out of Carolina right🙄

 

you wanted a much older, useless Gustafson who is a pylon back,  but you are confident that a 21 yr old KK, who was rushed into the league won’t be worth $6.1m in the future?

 

That is the big question for me. KK is 21, he could very well be a $6.1M player in the future. So maybe you overpay for a couple years but it might be worth it down the road. It's a call for smarter hockey people than myself. I hope they make the right call. 

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3 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

ok, you want to continue this, let's do it.

 

can you please share what your lineup will be with a $6.1M/2yr Kotkaniemi? Who will be cut/traded to make room under the cap?

 

We can start there

 

Is start with one of Edmondson, Chiarot, or Savard. Hoffman is another option. I don’t think Gallagher is going to bring value for half of his contract and is an option that can actually bring back high value and can be a chip to upgrade the D. You see if you can entice someone to take Byron for a pick.  Drouin is another one. We have a lot of wingers.
 

You are talking as if we have the 70’s dynasty. There aren’t many untouchables on this team.  You have Suzuki, and Caufield as definite untouchables, and Romanov should let be moved unless the return is extremely high. Everyone else is movable. Hell if it looks like we are out of the playoffs, and orice is back and playing well and we still suck, but no knows, he be willing to waive his NMC.

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12 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

That is the big question for me. KK is 21, he could very well be a $6.1M player in the future. So maybe you overpay for a couple years but it might be worth it down the road. It's a call for smarter hockey people than myself. I hope they make the right call. 

Yeah. I don’t want another sergechev regret situation. We NEEDED a young D and traded him for a friggin winger.

 

now we are starving for a centre and may end up give up way too early on a potential top 6 young centremen - when we really only have one centre - who has all of two years of experience.  MB said you don’t get elite centres late in 1st round of the draft. So, how is a pick in the 20’s going to help us???

 

I’ve said this many times. I’d rather pay someone for potential, than pay for someone’s past - that they will probably never replicate.

 

lastly, do people really think that the canes are giving up a 1st, and a 3rd, AND willing to overpay KK just because they want to get back at the habs??? Really???  It couldn’t be because they saw a guy show a lot of potential, in the last two playoffs?? That also actually understand - what MB clearly doesn’t - that for an RFA offer sheet to actually work, you HAVE to OVERPAY, or the other team simply matches.

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21 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Yeah, like Aho checked out of Carolina right🙄

 

I don't understand the comparison. I don't recall hearing any rumblings of Aho being disgruntled in Carolina. He just didn't have a contract and the Habs came along and gave him a great deal. With Kotkianiemi, reports are saying he wanted out after the Final benching and was telling people close to him he had played his last game as a Hab.

 

Bergevin had to be aware of this, so not getting a center this off-season is inexcusable.

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47 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

yes, but we have two extra picks (from the KK OF) to lessen the blow

 

But why pay up to $4.1 million for Brown when you can get him for less than $1 million by flipping a prospect Ottawa's way?  That's throwing a lot of money away for no good reason.  That's not even mentioning that he's not an NHL-calibre player.  And in Patrick's case, he may be no better than a guy like Evans or Poehling at the moment but he's the only semi-viable target off your list since Buffalo and Vancouver would match on their players (Pettersson wouldn't even sign unless it was in a higher range).

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6 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

... lastly, do people really think that the canes are giving up a 1st, and a 3rd, AND willing to overpay KK just because they want to get back at the habs??? Really???  ...

Waddell no ... Dundon yes.

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3 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Ok - off season so far.

1. 1st round puck - fail

2. Upgrading the D - fail 

3. losses vs gains from last year - fail

4.when most teams are making room, to avoid RFA offer sheets, or signing their RFA’s -MB gets caught with his pants down - fail 

Negativity Outweighs Positivity but How Much Positivity Is Actually Needed  to Equalize the Two?

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For anyone who looks at CapFriendly, sees the projected cap spending, and rightfully notes that Kotkaniemi's contract added to that spending will be higher than the offseason cap threshold (the 10% buffer), they'd technically still be under it.  I attempted to explain how that works for anyone interested: http://www.habsworld.net/2021/08/offseason-cap-rules-and-its-application-to-jesperi-kotkaniemis-offer-sheet/

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26 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said:

 

I don't understand the comparison. I don't recall hearing any rumblings of Aho being disgruntled in Carolina. He just didn't have a contract and the Habs came along and gave him a great deal. With Kotkianiemi, reports are saying he wanted out after the Final benching and was telling people close to him he had played his last game as a Hab.

 

Bergevin had to be aware of this, so not getting a center this off-season is inexcusable.

I don’t recall any reports of him wanting out. He expressed his disappointment that he want in the lineup and wanting to contribute more. Frankly I’d be more upset if he didn’t do that. That’s not the same thing as wanting out.

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49 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I don’t recall any reports of him wanting out. He expressed his disappointment that he want in the lineup and wanting to contribute more. Frankly I’d be more upset if he didn’t do that. That’s not the same thing as wanting out.

 

54 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

For anyone who looks at CapFriendly, sees the projected cap spending, and rightfully notes that Kotkaniemi's contract added to that spending will be higher than the offseason cap threshold (the 10% buffer), they'd technically still be under it.  I attempted to explain how that works for anyone interested: http://www.habsworld.net/2021/08/offseason-cap-rules-and-its-application-to-jesperi-kotkaniemis-offer-sheet/

 

Interesting. Very interesting.

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I don’t recall any reports of him wanting out. He expressed his disappointment that he want in the lineup and wanting to contribute more. Frankly I’d be more upset if he didn’t do that. That’s not the same thing as wanting out.

 

Agreed. I am not bothered at all that a 21 year old was a little ticked off about not playing. Montreal was the team that showed faith in him by drafting him 3rd overall.  He still has some growing up to do. 

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2 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

That is the big question for me. KK is 21, he could very well be a $6.1M player in the future. So maybe you overpay for a couple years but it might be worth it down the road. It's a call for smarter hockey people than myself. I hope they make the right call. 

My feeling exactly. 
 

if MB believes KK is a future 6M$ player, then I think he should match. 
 

if not, take the pick and go after a Dvorak level player. 

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