Trade Toffoli traded to Calgary

[GHT120]

57 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

In your context, you are correct, but it should override plans unless their long term plan is to get rid of players with cheap positive value contracts who show up in the playoffs and play good defensively and score.  Those are not the type of players any team should get rid of at any cost, unless they are UFA's the next season and a team cant afford to resign them.  However, that description doesnt describe Toffoli though...

They are the type of players that should be kept if you are trying for the playoffs ... but TT's contract likely expires before the Habs are really in that mode.

[tomh009]

57 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

In your context, you are correct, but it should override plans unless their long term plan is to get rid of players with cheap positive value contracts who show up in the playoffs and play good defensively and score.  Those are not the type of players any team should get rid of at any cost, unless they are UFA's the next season and a team cant afford to resign them.  However, that description doesnt describe Toffoli though.

But I don't think those are -- or should be -- the criteria for the keep/trade decision.

 

I love Toffoli, I really do. And yet trading him makes sense, because he'll be 30 in the summer. Two years from now, when we maybe could possibly be starting to contend, he would already be 32, a UFA -- and looking for his final contract, likely with lots of dollars and lots of term. The kind we really should not sign if we're looking to be strong for a number of years.

 

So, the only real alternative would have been to keep him for two years, and then trade him as a rental at the end of the contract. But trading him now significantly improves our cap flexibility as we go through our rebuild process.

[Commandant]

One thing to remember about Toffoli

 

The way we see him as Habs fans and the way NHL GMs see him may not be the same. 

 

One of the reasons he was on a 4 year 4.25 million AAV deal to begin with is that about 1.5 years ago, every team had the option to sign him and that was the best deal he could get (Even after playing great for Vancouver).  The very reason he has a great contract is that he wasn't in high demand.

 

So that his trade price isn't what you expected shouldn't be a huge surprise. Teams weren't paying top dollar for him in free agency.... now after a great shortened season (2020-21) followed by mediocre half season on a bad team, granted (2021-22), you expect them to make huge offers for him?

 

 

[Sir_Boagalott]

  

45 minutes ago, Commandant said:

I don't think Dom is the entire problem. There are lots of flaws on this team and a rebuild is needed. 

 

That said, Dom was part of the problem and he was not part of the solution as the youngsters weren't developing under him, so a move had to be made. 

 

I'm not saying that Dom was the entire problem, but he might have been, and they should have figured that out 1st.  ex: fired him several weeks earlier to give a new coach more time with the players so they could judge who or what was part of the problem, and see what players respond to new coach, so they have a better idea as to what to correct.

 

24 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

They are the type of players that should be kept if you are trying for the playoffs ... but TT's contract likely expires before the Habs are really in that mode.

 

Exactly, that's my reason why I wouldn't have traded him.  They got rid of Dom and is their plan to suck for the next 3-5 years, so get rid of Toffoli because he goes against the doctrine of sucking?

 

I'm dead set against the idea of purposely blowing up the team and sucking for a minimum of 3-5 years.  I'd only go that route if they had no players that showed up in the playoffs. 

 

 

27 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

But I don't think those are -- or should be -- the criteria for the keep/trade decision.

 

I love Toffoli, I really do. And yet trading him makes sense, because he'll be 30 in the summer. Two years from now, when we maybe could possibly be starting to contend, he would already be 32, a UFA -- and looking for his final contract, likely with lots of dollars and lots of term. The kind we really should not sign if we're looking to be strong for a number of years.

 

So, the only real alternative would have been to keep him for two years, and then trade him as a rental at the end of the contract. But trading him now significantly improves our cap flexibility as we go through our rebuild process.

 

I believe if the Habs get the top pick this year, he might be able to play next season, and that would likely make them competitive again next season.  However, for that to happen they can't get rid all of their top players that produce, especially in the playoffs.

 

It's not like the Habs situation was them being the President Trophy team where there is a high expectation to win the Cup and then get outed in the playoffs in 5 games year after year, where their top players just didnt show up.  That's the scenario where you get rid of all your top players, because they've proven that they aren't reliable. 

 

 

 

 

[Commandant]

If we have to tear it down, I want to build a team that is going to be challenging for president's trophies and is able to have a multi year window of cup contention. 

 

I'm not that interested in jumping back to being a bubble team next year and hoping for another miracle run. 

[GHT120]

10 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

... Exactly, that's my reason why I wouldn't have traded him.  They got rid of Dom and is their plan to suck for the next 3-5 years, so get rid of Toffoli because he goes against the doctrine of sucking? ...

I think the plan is to suck next season so that they have an opportunity to possibly get Bedard or Michkov ... then, start to rebuild around the youngsters and retained veterans the next year and hopefully take the first H&G shot at the playoffs three years from now ... but TT's contract expires before that "shot" ... and as was pointed out above by Tomh009, he will likely be the type of player that the habs should not then be signing ... he will be 32 years old in the spring of 2024 and likely looking for one last contract with money and term ... not the Habs ideal UFA target for the 24/25 season.

 

But arguments are just opinions ... nothing that can be proven

[GHT120]

29 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

... I believe if the Habs get the top pick this year, he might be able to play next season, and that would likely make them competitive again next season ...

 

2 minutes ago, Commandant said:

... I'm not that interested in jumping back to being a bubble team next year and hoping for another miracle run. 

 

Chasing the playoffs next season would (IMO) just be returning to the same hamster wheel they have been on for the last 29 years.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

1 hour ago, tomh009 said:

But I don't think those are -- or should be -- the criteria for the keep/trade decision.

 

I love Toffoli, I really do. And yet trading him makes sense, because he'll be 30 in the summer. Two years from now, when we maybe could possibly be starting to contend, he would already be 32, a UFA -- and looking for his final contract, likely with lots of dollars and lots of term. The kind we really should not sign if we're looking to be strong for a number of years.

 

So, the only real alternative would have been to keep him for two years, and then trade him as a rental at the end of the contract. But trading him now significantly improves our cap flexibility as we go through our rebuild process.

 

Totally agree, good post. At 32 it will be his last chance for a big contract. Better to trade a guy a year too early than a year too late.  There were a few who suggested on this forum that they should have traded Petry when he was having a big year  "buy low, sell high" and that made a lot of sense. 

[GHT120]

28 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

Totally agree, good post. At 32 it will be his last chance for a big contract. Better to trade a guy a year too early than a year too late.  There were a few who suggested on this forum that they should have traded Petry when he was having a big year  "buy low, sell high" and that made a lot of sense. 

 

 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

 

 

 

There goes Branch Rickey plagiarizing me again.  LOL 

[Sir_Boagalott]

3 hours ago, GHT120 said:

I think the plan is to suck next season so that they have an opportunity to possibly get Bedard or Michkov ... then, start to rebuild around the youngsters and retained veterans the next year and hopefully take the first H&G shot at the playoffs three years from now ... but TT's contract expires before that "shot" ... and as was pointed out above by Tomh009, he will likely be the type of player that the habs should not then be signing ... he will be 32 years old in the spring of 2024 and likely looking for one last contract with money and term ... not the Habs ideal UFA target for the 24/25 season.

 

But arguments are just opinions ... nothing that can be proven

 

Exactly, its just opinions. 

 

I dont agre with big $ contract argument and  thats another reason I wouldnt just dump Tofolli.  I don't get the impression that he's that type of person.  i.e, when he's 32, I doubt he'll want a Suzuki like contract where he's signed until he's 40 at close to 8+ mil/season. 

 

If he was like that, he would have been looking for similar when he signed with the Habs.  Sure, the cap wass frozen, but he easily could have singed a 1 or 2 year deal until it wasnt, and then got that type of contract.   In think he's similar to Dvorak in that sense, where they happily accept less than the absolute maximum amount that they could get.  That is a reason in itself to keep players like that - they are keepers and you want a collection of them.  i.e. they're team players. 

[hab29RETIRED]

6 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

In your context, you are correct, but it should override plans unless their long term plan is to get rid of players with cheap positive value contracts who show up in the playoffs and play good defensively and score.  Those are not the type of players any team should get rid of at any cost, unless they are UFA's the next season and a team cant afford to resign them.  However, that description doesnt describe Toffoli though.   

 

This years suckfest could be 100% on Dom, who is gone now, so why get rid of everybody and start over when they've already gotten rid of the problem?  If Dom was the entire problem, it is ludicrous to dump all the good players and suck for another 3-5 years and for no other reason than Dom sucked.  That makes absolutely no sense at all. 

The problem is we had a team that doesn’t have tent and a coach that lost the room a long time ago, so there was little to no effort, no defensive structure, and Mia use of players that resulted in as getting blown away 7-1, 6-1, 7-2 with regularity.

With structure and better coaching, more structure, development of young players, and effort.

 

We are still a losing team, we just dimt like the Washington Chiefs playing the Harlem Globetrotters, on a nightly basis against  pretty much every team in the league. 

dumping DD got players to play with more effort, more structure and a guy like Caufield looks again like the player we hoped he could be.

having Taffoli, Anderson, Chiarot and even adding a first overall pick and adding a Gaudreau through free agency would still make us  lottery team next year. 
I think the next three years we are a lottery team. Makes zero sense to keep Taffoli around. Hell, we should be trying like hell to move Gallagher and Petry over the summer.

[hab29RETIRED]

6 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

In your context, you are correct, but it should override plans unless their long term plan is to get rid of players with cheap positive value contracts who show up in the playoffs and play good defensively and score.  Those are not the type of players any team should get rid of at any cost, unless they are UFA's the next season and a team cant afford to resign them.  However, that description doesnt describe Toffoli though.   

 

This years suckfest could be 100% on Dom, who is gone now, so why get rid of everybody and start over when they've already gotten rid of the problem?  If Dom was the entire problem, it is ludicrous to dump all the good players and suck for another 3-5 years and for no other reason than Dom sucked.  That makes absolutely no sense at all. 

The problem is we had a team that doesn’t have tent and a coach that lost the room a long time ago, so there was little to no effort, no defensive structure, and Mia use of players that resulted in as getting blown away 7-1, 6-1, 7-2 with regularity.

With structure and better coaching, more structure, development of young players, and effort.

 

We are still a losing team, we just dimt like the Washington Chiefs playing the Harlem Globetrotters, on a nightly basis against  pretty much every team in the league. 

dumping DD got players to play with more effort, more structure and a guy like Caufield looks again like the player we hoped he could be.

having Taffoli, Anderson, Chiarot and even adding a first overall pick and adding a Gaudreau through free agency would still make us  lottery team next year. 
I think the next three years we are a lottery team. Makes zero sense to keep Taffoli around. Hell, we should be trying like hell to move Gallagher and Petry over the summer.

[hab29RETIRED]

6 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

In your context, you are correct, but it should override plans unless their long term plan is to get rid of players with cheap positive value contracts who show up in the playoffs and play good defensively and score.  Those are not the type of players any team should get rid of at any cost, unless they are UFA's the next season and a team cant afford to resign them.  However, that description doesnt describe Toffoli though.   

 

This years suckfest could be 100% on Dom, who is gone now, so why get rid of everybody and start over when they've already gotten rid of the problem?  If Dom was the entire problem, it is ludicrous to dump all the good players and suck for another 3-5 years and for no other reason than Dom sucked.  That makes absolutely no sense at all. 

The problem is we had a team that doesn’t have tent and a coach that lost the room a long time ago, so there was little to no effort, no defensive structure, and Mia use of players that resulted in as getting blown away 7-1, 6-1, 7-2 with regularity.

With structure and better coaching, more structure, development of young players, and effort.

 

We are still a losing team, we just dimt like the Washington Chiefs playing the Harlem Globetrotters, on a nightly basis against  pretty much every team in the league. 

dumping DD got players to play with more effort, more structure and a guy like Caufield looks again like the player we hoped he could be.

having Taffoli, Anderson, Chiarot and even adding a first overall pick and adding a Gaudreau through free agency would still make us  lottery team next year. 
I think the next three years we are a lottery team. Makes zero sense to keep Taffoli around. Hell, we should be trying like hell to move Gallagher and Petry over the summer.

5 hours ago, Commandant said:

I don't think Dom is the entire problem. There are lots of flaws on this team and a rebuild is needed. 

 

That said, Dom was part of the problem and he was not part of the solution as the youngsters weren't developing under him, so a move had to be made. 

💯 agree!

[GHT120]

10 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

There goes Branch Rickey plagiarizing me again.  LOL 

 

Didn't realize you were THAT old
😉

[GHT120]

9 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

Exactly, its just opinions ... when he's 32, I doubt he'll want a Suzuki like contract where he's signed until he's 40 at close to 8+ mil/season ...

 

Don't think anyone was suggesting he would necessarily ask for 8 years ... but at 32, depending on various variables (e.g.,AAV, how TT has played the next two seasons, where the rebuild is at), even four years might be more term than they should be offering a 30+ player ... if Tyler were willing to take an "J'aime Montréal" discount that would certainly be a positive.

[tomh009]

13 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

I dont agre with big $ contract argument and  thats another reason I wouldnt just dump Tofolli.  I don't get the impression that he's that type of person.  i.e, when he's 32, I doubt he'll want a Suzuki like contract where he's signed until he's 40 at close to 8+ mil/season.

I can't see that anyone would give him eight years of term at 32, but almost every quality player would be looking for 4-5 years at that point, taking him to 36 or 37, at which point he would surely not be producing at the level of the contract, effectively making him a drag on our cap at that point.

 

Now, it could be that Toffoli would have really loved the Habs and the city, and would have given them a nice short contract, because he really is a nice guy. And maybe Lehkonen would sign a long-term contract at $3M per, because he really bleeds bleu, blanc et rouge.

 

These are of course things that can happen. But when we are talking about players below the elite level, who are not going to earn anywhere close to $100M (gross) in their careers, the likelihood of them giving up a million a year (or so) for the privilege of playing in Montreal is not super high. It could happen, sure, but would you really make your plan for building a contender team contingent on that happening?

[Commandant]

1 hour ago, tomh009 said:

I can't see that anyone would give him eight years of term at 32, but almost every quality player would be looking for 4-5 years at that point, taking him to 36 or 37, at which point he would surely not be producing at the level of the contract, effectively making him a drag on our cap at that point.

 

Now, it could be that Toffoli would have really loved the Habs and the city, and would have given them a nice short contract, because he really is a nice guy. And maybe Lehkonen would sign a long-term contract at $3M per, because he really bleeds bleu, blanc et rouge.

 

These are of course things that can happen. But when we are talking about players below the elite level, who are not going to earn anywhere close to $100M (gross) in their careers, the likelihood of them giving up a million a year (or so) for the privilege of playing in Montreal is not super high. It could happen, sure, but would you really make your plan for building a contender team contingent on that happening?

 

If he loves the city so much to sign here cheap, he can still do that at age 32. 

 

I think its a pipe dream to believe that a guy on his last big contract will give anyone a home-town discount though, especially when his contract at 28 was pretty cheap. 

[tomh009]

1 hour ago, Commandant said:

I think its a pipe dream to believe that a guy on his last big contract will give anyone a home-town discount though, especially when his contract at 28 was pretty cheap. 

Yeah. It could happen, but it would be a foolish GM that would plan his team based on that.

 

As for my other example -- Lehkonen, if they want to keep him and he loves Montreal, they can offer him a team-friendly long-term contract this spring. If he takes it, it's a win for the team, if he doesn't, then he probably doesn't fit into the long-term plan and we'll see a trade in the summer.

 

The difference to the Toffoli situation is that they can get the answer before July 1 this year and then act accordingly. With Toffoli, Gorton/Hughes would have had uncertainty for the next few years and Toffoli would be well over 30 by the time the rest of the team is ready to contend.

 

Drouin is a somewhat similar situation to Lehkonen, I think. He's also 26, he has one more year of contract left (whereas Lehkonen has one more year of RFA), and (we think) he loves the city. From an age point of view, he could be part of the future Habs core, but the team needs him to be on a contract that matches his production. He's unlikely (I think) to get traded this summer; they could extend him this spring, with an appropriate contract, or else he'll probably get dealt at the deadline next year.

[Commandant]

4 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

Yeah. It could happen, but it would be a foolish GM that would plan his team based on that.

 

As for my other example -- Lehkonen, if they want to keep him and he loves Montreal, they can offer him a team-friendly long-term contract this spring. If he takes it, it's a win for the team, if he doesn't, then he probably doesn't fit into the long-term plan and we'll see a trade in the summer.

 

The difference to the Toffoli situation is that they can get the answer before July 1 this year and then act accordingly. With Toffoli, Gorton/Hughes would have had uncertainty for the next few years and Toffoli would be well over 30 by the time the rest of the team is ready to contend.

 

Drouin is a somewhat similar situation to Lehkonen, I think. He's also 26, he has one more year of contract left (whereas Lehkonen has one more year of RFA), and (we think) he loves the city. From an age point of view, he could be part of the future Habs core, but the team needs him to be on a contract that matches his production. He's unlikely (I think) to get traded this summer; they could extend him this spring, with an appropriate contract, or else he'll probably get dealt at the deadline next year.

 

Lehkonen is in his final year or his contract.  They don't have to wait, they can negotiate now.   He would be an RFA but that doesn't mean we have to wait til spring.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

If he loves the city so much to sign here cheap, he can still do that at age 32. 

 

I think its a pipe dream to believe that a guy on his last big contract will give anyone a home-town discount though, especially when his contract at 28 was pretty cheap. 

 

Yup, I would agree with that. At 32 you have 1 more chance to make big money before you retire. 

[tomh009]

9 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Lehkonen is in his final year or his contract.  They don't have to wait, they can negotiate now.   He would be an RFA but that doesn't mean we have to wait til spring.

Indeed. If they are by no getting confident with their player evaluations and their concept for the team a few years from now, I would expect them to be starting already on any such extensions -- if the extensions for Lehkonen or Drouin, for example, fit their plans.

[Neech]

Looking like Calgary got Toffoli for a good price by buying early. Funny how Lekky netted us an A-prospect but Toffoli didn't (still a decent return though).

[Commandant]

40 minutes ago, Neech said:

Looking like Calgary got Toffoli for a good price by buying early. Funny how Lekky netted us an A-prospect but Toffoli didn't (still a decent return though).

 

Toffoli got the first rounder, Lehkonen didn't. 

[Neech]

4 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Toffoli got the first rounder, Lehkonen didn't. 

 

A former 1st rounder who is ranked ~#50 in league prospects is worth more than a future 1st rounder in the late 20's.