Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 2 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: I’ll echo what others have said…we gotta start making trades before the tank is compromised 😮 If we really want the tank to work we can trade Suzuki and Caulfield. LOL Seriously, I think Hughes is working hard at it but the right offer hasn't happened yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 2 hours ago, tomh009 said: I don't know his play in the past years at all, I don't recall ever seeing him play at all until the Habs picked him up. But my opinion of his play earlier in the season is not quite as harsh as Brian's. I've watched most of the games this year (and nearly all the goals when I couldn't watch the games) and often our D was playing so badly that the goalies really had no chance on many of the goals. He has done this before with Florida - looked good for a few weeks towards the end of one season and earned the backup job for the following year as a result. That decision didn't go very well and they were quickly looking for a replacement. In the end, they got desperate and tried career minor leaguer Chris Driedger - that decision wound up working out better than they hoped. I can't pin the losses on Montembeault but he was good for at least one clunker a game on average, regardless of the poor D in front of him. That has been the book on him going back to junior. It's why he struggles to maintain a save percentage of .900 at any level (junior, the AHL, or the NHL). You simply cannot be a successful NHL goalie with a save percentage below .900 (unless you're trying to tank at which point it becomes a positive). Could he have turned a corner? Possibly. But I need to see a lot more performances like he has had the last couple of weeks before I'm prepared to believe that he actually has. Right now, this just looks like early 2019 all over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 21 minutes ago, dlbalr said: He has done this before with Florida - looked good for a few weeks towards the end of one season and earned the backup job for the following year as a result. That decision didn't go very well and they were quickly looking for a replacement. In the end, they got desperate and tried career minor leaguer Chris Driedger - that decision wound up working out better than they hoped. I can't pin the losses on Montembeault but he was good for at least one clunker a game on average, regardless of the poor D in front of him. That has been the book on him going back to junior. It's why he struggles to maintain a save percentage of .900 at any level (junior, the AHL, or the NHL). You simply cannot be a successful NHL goalie with a save percentage below .900 (unless you're trying to tank at which point it becomes a positive). Could he have turned a corner? Possibly. But I need to see a lot more performances like he has had the last couple of weeks before I'm prepared to believe that he actually has. Right now, this just looks like early 2019 all over again. I think he has turned a corner. The times he was giving bad angle goals was due to being overly aggressive and taking himself out of position. He reminded me a lot of Price when he is "off" I think that if he is more consistent the rest of the season, he could be Price's back up next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 24, 2022 Author Share Posted February 24, 2022 2 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: If we really want the tank to work we can trade Suzuki and Caulfield. LOL Seriously, I think Hughes is working hard at it but the right offer hasn't happened yet. I dont really care about tank too much, new coach smell wearing off and deadline will snuff out any crazy run. Just love seeing some happy campers and offense...and bit of defense, after couple months of pure garbage hockey. Light up the SENS baby and fill the frickin net!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Admittedly, much of my skepticism flows from 20 years of Habs’ drafting and development - two decades in which we’ve heard many times about our great prospects, and which yielded a grand total of ONE legitimate first-line FW in Max Pacioretty. One. (The record on D is somewhat better, provided we include two guys who were traded away - in which case we produced three top-paring D-men over the same two decades). Having heard this song and dance before - remember all the great studs on the farm we supposedly had during the first Gainey rebuild? Or how by about 2021 we would have these great kids leading us to glory? - I take the position of “fool me thrice, shame on me.” If, this time round, the results are better - and perhaps this new management group will actually understand player development - I will be the first person to be delighted. Is Pacioretty the only first line forward? Plekanec was a guy who had a 69 point and 70 point season, as well as a number of other good years. Galchenyuk is still the 2nd best forward in his draft year. Brendan Gallagher is a multi-time 30 goal scorer, Kostitsyn became a legit first liner for a couple seasons, Chris Higgins scored 25+ on multiple occasions. So yeah I'd say there is more than one forward.... we were also mentioning top 6 forwards.... and in that case there are more too. On D you are looking at komisarek who played top pair, Hainsey also did it for other teams, Subban, McDonagh, So I don't think its great, but not as poor as you suggested either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 25 minutes ago, Commandant said: Is Pacioretty the only first line forward? Plekanec was a guy who had a 69 point and 70 point season, as well as a number of other good years. Galchenyuk is still the 2nd best forward in his draft year. Brendan Gallagher is a multi-time 30 goal scorer, Kostitsyn became a legit first liner for a couple seasons, Chris Higgins scored 25+ on multiple occasions. So yeah I'd say there is more than one forward.... we were also mentioning top 6 forwards.... and in that case there are more too. On D you are looking at komisarek who played top pair, Hainsey also did it for other teams, Subban, McDonagh, So I don't think its great, but not as poor as you suggested either. I would suggest that Pacs and Gallagher are the only true first line quality players ... my standard for legit first line/top 6 player is being capable to fill that role on many/most legit playoff teams (i.e., not chasing the chance at a wild card) and/or Cup contenders ... Pleks was a good 2C and Higgins was a great 3rd liner but (IMO) marginal 2nd liner) from that perspective ... Galchenyuk's ONE top 6 level season (when it mattered little) and being the second best forward of this draft does not (IMO) make him a legit top 6 forward ... Desharnais was a 1C for a couple of seasons but was never (IMO) a legit top 6 forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 11 hours ago, Commandant said: Is Pacioretty the only first line forward? Plekanec was a guy who had a 69 point and 70 point season, as well as a number of other good years. Galchenyuk is still the 2nd best forward in his draft year. Brendan Gallagher is a multi-time 30 goal scorer, Kostitsyn became a legit first liner for a couple seasons, Chris Higgins scored 25+ on multiple occasions. So yeah I'd say there is more than one forward.... we were also mentioning top 6 forwards.... and in that case there are more too. On D you are looking at komisarek who played top pair, Hainsey also did it for other teams, Subban, McDonagh, So I don't think its great, but not as poor as you suggested either. Higgins was a showcase of just how good a player Koivu was. The habs did have some good picks, but horrible player development, that helped prospects realize their full potential. Too many players rushed in, had early success and than fizzled out, or were run out of town for immaturity (Ribeiro). Kostitsyn was a highly skilled player that was built like a tank, he reminded me a lot of the 80’s anti-drug “this is your brain on drugs“ scrambled/fried egg ads. He was also a poster child for how bad the teams development process is for helping young players become professionals. Ditto with Chucky. AK and chucky were only only legit top line potential draft picks - but AK was a horrible choice given the other options in his draft year (I still can’t believe they didn’t take Getzlaf). Even mr. Potato head - I mean KK, was not seen as legit top line player three months before he was drafted. Gallagher was a rare good late round find, but he is one of those small guys with a chip, that had the internal drive from a young age to prove his doubters wrong, whereas guys like chucky, or AK had all the talent, and physical attributes you want, but never learned to be a pro, and we’re mishandled early in their careers. but I’m with CC, other than Price (which is a pick I never liked, because I hate picking a goalie that high), we never really had a high draft pick prospect that didn’t have question marks. Galchenyuk missed to many games as a junior, was rushed in, and he was supposed to learn to be a centre while playing wing. Would have been better letting him finish his junior career, and starting him in the AHL. KK was also rushed because we needed a saviour, not because he was ready. Premieau was getting shelled most nights and should have been sent down, but becuase if short term needs was kept up. I’d rather we put in a career 3rd string ECHL goalie than have kept Premieau as long as we did. Caufield looks great right now, and he is a guy i have high hopes for, but given how he was being used, he should -also have been in the AHL. young players have to be developed, and part of that is putting the. I’m the right place and positions to succeed. We have a history of rushing players like Riberio, Chucky, KK, Mete, and Caufield, because management is trying to sell hope. I’ve been hearing for three years how deep our prospect pool is, but the only guys I have confidence in are Suzuki (not drafted by us, and allowed to remain in junior by Vegas), Caufield, and Guhle. If that’s all that pan out, that’s a pretty shitty record for the decade MB was on the job. Gainey had that many players in one draft - one of which he gave away for gomer Pyle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 20 hours ago, dlbalr said: He has done this before with Florida - looked good for a few weeks towards the end of one season and earned the backup job for the following year as a result. That decision didn't go very well and they were quickly looking for a replacement. In the end, they got desperate and tried career minor leaguer Chris Driedger - that decision wound up working out better than they hoped. I can't pin the losses on Montembeault but he was good for at least one clunker a game on average, regardless of the poor D in front of him. That has been the book on him going back to junior. It's why he struggles to maintain a save percentage of .900 at any level (junior, the AHL, or the NHL). You simply cannot be a successful NHL goalie with a save percentage below .900 (unless you're trying to tank at which point it becomes a positive). Could he have turned a corner? Possibly. But I need to see a lot more performances like he has had the last couple of weeks before I'm prepared to believe that he actually has. Right now, this just looks like early 2019 all over again. Yeah, I have no answers for prior seasons. And maybe this season is just a fluke. But looking at this season alone: 2021-2022, 5-on-5: Allen (1064 TOI) 2.59 GAA, 0.918 save %, 0.789 HD save %, 0.961 MD save %, 0.960 LD save % Montembeault (965 TOI) 2.67 GAA, 0.922 save %, 0.822 HD save %, 0.932 MD save %, 0.974 LD save % Primeau (392 TOI) 4.89 GAA, 0.860 save %, 0.714 HD save %, 0.831 MD save %, 0.988 LD save % Montembeault has done as well against high-danger shots as Allen, but allowed roughly twice as many goals from medium-danger shots (these could probably be called "clunkers", as you say). For the sake of comparison ... 2020-2021, 5-on-5: Allen (1363 TOI) 2.42 GAA, 0.912 save %, 0.804 HD save %, 0.904 MD save %, 0.978 LD save % Price (1203 TOI) 1.84 GAA, 0.925 save %, 0.841 HD save %, 0.873 MD save %, 0.990 LD save % Note that Price's average on MD shots (17 goals allowed on 134 MD shots) was even lower. However, he made up for that with a stunning 0.990 on LD shots (2 goals on 207 shots). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 8 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said: Higgins was a showcase of just how good a player Koivu was. The habs did have some good picks, but horrible player development, that helped prospects realize their full potential. Too many players rushed in, had early success and than fizzled out, or were run out of town for immaturity (Ribeiro). Kostitsyn was a highly skilled player that was built like a tank, he reminded me a lot of the 80’s anti-drug “this is your brain on drugs“ scrambled/fried egg ads. He was also a poster child for how bad the teams development process is for helping young players become professionals. Ditto with Chucky. AK and chucky were only only legit top line potential draft picks - but AK was a horrible choice given the other options in his draft year (I still can’t believe they didn’t take Getzlaf). Even mr. Potato head - I mean KK, was not seen as legit top line player three months before he was drafted. Gallagher was a rare good late round find, but he is one of those small guys with a chip, that had the internal drive from a young age to prove his doubters wrong, whereas guys like chucky, or AK had all the talent, and physical attributes you want, but never learned to be a pro, and we’re mishandled early in their careers. but I’m with CC, other than Price (which is a pick I never liked, because I hate picking a goalie that high), we never really had a high draft pick prospect that didn’t have question marks. Galchenyuk missed to many games as a junior, was rushed in, and he was supposed to learn to be a centre while playing wing. Would have been better letting him finish his junior career, and starting him in the AHL. KK was also rushed because we needed a saviour, not because he was ready. Premieau was getting shelled most nights and should have been sent down, but becuase if short term needs was kept up. I’d rather we put in a career 3rd string ECHL goalie than have kept Premieau as long as we did. Caufield looks great right now, and he is a guy i have high hopes for, but given how he was being used, he should -also have been in the AHL. young players have to be developed, and part of that is putting the. I’m the right place and positions to succeed. We have a history of rushing players like Riberio, Chucky, KK, Mete, and Caufield, because management is trying to sell hope. I’ve been hearing for three years how deep our prospect pool is, but the only guys I have confidence in are Suzuki (not drafted by us, and allowed to remain in junior by Vegas), Caufield, and Guhle. If that’s all that pan out, that’s a pretty shitty record for the decade MB was on the job. Gainey had that many players in one draft - one of which he gave away for gomer Pyle. The last 20 years - this goes back to Gainey; I’m not counting Houle because he was a blithering buffoon - we have a track record of developing perfectly serviceable, OK players, and a few legitimately good contributors. No stars. Pleks was a quintessential 2nd line C, a wonderful player, but not a legit 1st line guy. Ribs, we threw away, but he too was a #2C. And those are two of the **best** we produced. Even if we want to rank Gallagher as a clear-cut 1st line forward - and while he can certainly play on the first line, he really only had three years of top-line production in his career - that makes two. In 20 years. Something in the Timmins formula skewed the organization toward drafting players who would have a comparatively high chance of making the NHL, but would not have high ceilings. A decent number of bottom-6ers, a few 2nd-liners here and there, no stars. That’s why I assume that the current crop of prospects is more of the same. I’m sure some will make the NHL, and a few will have good careers as useful players. But the pattern of the Timmins era should lead us to be skeptical that any of them will be anything more than middling contributors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 9 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Something in the Timmins formula skewed the organization toward drafting players who would have a comparatively high chance of making the NHL, but would not have high ceilings. A decent number of bottom-6ers, a few 2nd-liners here and there, no stars. You may be hitting the nail on the head: Timmins may have been risk-averse and tended picked players he was confident would make the team rather than swinging for the fences. That would certainly explain the outcomes. (The GM will likely have meddled with some of Timmins' first-round picks but I expect later rounds will have almost all been approved by Timmins.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 Part of the issue could be Timmins. Part of the issue could also have been player development in those years. The fact that people like Lefebvre are no longer around is something that i think is a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, Commandant said: ... Part of the issue could also have been player development in those years. The fact that people like Lefebvre are no longer around is something that i think is a good thing. Jean-François Houle has certainly done a great job having the Rocket in 3rd/4th place (% vs Pts) in their division ... whether he provides good player development will take a couple of years to assess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 Timmins has an above average track record of drafting NHLers in the 20th to 100th pick order range. Because the Habs were a perennial "bubble team", it only happened a few times where they picked in the top 10. Also, for the first few MB years, the Habs didn't have 2nd round picks. (If I recall correctly) Two of those 2nd rounders became Petry and two other became Shaw I think that the skew has to do with team strategy built from Gainey's mission to make the Habs a top 10 team (top tier) in the standings. MB continued that strategy but with the goal of making it to the cup finals. One time Krider screwed that, the other time father time caught up with the aging Habs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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