Constructing the D corps

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

4 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Matheson has two years left on his contract and it wouldn’t surprise me if he gets an extension. 

 

It wouldn't surprise me either, he is a hometown boy, seems to be thriving in Montreal, should have another 4 or 5 good years left, maybe more. 

[dlbalr]

9 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

Alone no but in a trade package he could.

 

If a player doesn't have good trade value on his own, he's not going to have more value being included in a trade package.  He's close to throw-in value in a package deal, more of a third piece type of inclusion.

[Habsfan89]

47 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

If a player doesn't have good trade value on his own, he's not going to have more value being included in a trade package.  He's close to throw-in value in a package deal, more of a third piece type of inclusion.

Yeah but he still has value is my point. On a strong playoff team he’s added depth. On a rebuilding team he’s a fill in until your younger guys are ready. So to say he has no value is ridiculous. 

[GHT120]

1 hour ago, Habsfan89 said:

Yeah but he still has value is my point. On a strong playoff team he’s added depth. On a rebuilding team he’s a fill in until your younger guys are ready. So to say he has no value is ridiculous. 

Guess it depends on the definition of value ... he might be included in a trade package but he would not be a significant piece or really have any impact on the value of the return the Habs obtain ... "added depth" is usually a 4/5th round pick ... technically that is some value but not something anyone ever proposes a trade to obtain, unless it is a "get rid of <insert name>" proposal.

[tomh009]

I think credible RD depth is more valuable to the Habs at this point than one more fourth-rounder.

[Commandant]

3 hours ago, tomh009 said:

I think credible RD depth is more valuable to the Habs at this point than one more fourth-rounder.

 

100%  its not a huge value and Kovacevic is useful. 

[dlbalr]

7 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

Yeah but he still has value is my point. On a strong playoff team he’s added depth. On a rebuilding team he’s a fill in until your younger guys are ready. So to say he has no value is ridiculous. 

 

I don't know who said he had no value (I know I didn't in the post you quoted).  What is his standalone value?  If it's a fourth-round pick, it's pretty inconsequential.  On a playoff team, he's a 7/8 guy, that's not worth trading much of anything for.  And for a rebuilding team, he's worth it as a depth piece but Winnipeg had no luck trading him which is how Montreal got him off waivers in the first place.  Rebuilding teams will want a warm body for as cheap an acquisition cost as possible so while Kovacevic would indeed fit that bill, those teams won't offer much of anything for him.  If they can't get him for dirt cheap, they'll just claim someone off waivers (like Anaheim claiming Gustav Lindstrom during the season).

 

Suppose the Habs are in trade talks for an impact player and they're trying to find the missing piece to a package off.  If Hughes offers up a fourth-round pick (or Kovacevic if that's his value) as that missing piece, it's probably not moving the needle.  That's what I mean by close to throw-in value; he's not going to be the difference-maker to match up value in a bigger trade.  He has some value, sure, but not enough to do anything of note which, as others have said, means it probably makes more sense to keep him at this point.

[DON]

What would a goofy value or ranking be for the young d?

Hutson 1st rd pick+++

Guhle 1st rd pick ++

Reinbacher 1st rd pick+

Mailloux 1st rd pick

Xhekaj a young top-six forward (Pefetti)(combined with Jets pick?)

Harris 2nd rd pick +

Struble 2nd rd pick +

Barron 3rd rd pick

Kovacevic 3rd rd pick

 

[alfredoh2009]

4 hours ago, DON said:

What would a goofy value or ranking be for the young d?

Hutson 1st rd pick+++

Guhle 1st rd pick ++

Reinbacher 1st rd pick+

Mailloux 1st rd pick

Xhekaj a young top-six forward (Pefetti)(combined with Jets pick?)

Harris 2nd rd pick +

Struble 2nd rd pick +

Barron 3rd rd pick

Kovacevic 3rd rd pick

 

 
Barron gives me Petry vibes, at his prime he will be worth a high second or a late 1st at least 

[dlbalr]

2 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Barron gives me Petry vibes, at his prime he will be worth a high second or a late 1st at least 

 

Maybe it's just me but Barron becoming Petry seems like a pretty good outcome.  That player, when young and cheap, would carry pretty good trade value as well.

[alfredoh2009]

9 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

Maybe it's just me but Barron becoming Petry seems like a pretty good outcome.  That player, when young and cheap, would carry pretty good trade value as well.

I will check the stats later but I am almost sure that Barron has better NHL stats than Petry at the same age.

Petry was terrible before coming to MTL

[GHT120]

20 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 Barron gives me Petry vibes, at his prime he will be worth a high second or a late 1st at least 

Post-draft years 3 and 4 Barron was with Habs while Petry was still at Michigan State, so hard to compare ... I hope you are right, but even if you are that is a few years away.

[dlbalr]

20 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I will check the stats later but I am almost sure that Barron has better NHL stats than Petry at the same age.

Petry was terrible before coming to MTL

 

Petry's offensive numbers weren't great when he was in Edmonton but I wouldn't say he was terrible with them though.  But yes, Barron's production at the same point as Petry career-wise would be higher.

[alfredoh2009]

13 hours ago, GHT120 said:

Post-draft years 3 and 4 Barron was with Habs while Petry was still at Michigan State, so hard to compare ... I hope you are right, but even if you are that is a few years away.

thanks for checking 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

TBH I always thought the metric of “comparing two players’ production at the early same age” was a bad one. Lots of years separate Barron from his future. He has a ways to go before he even establishes himself as an everyday NHLer, let alone the #1A defenceman Petry eventually grew into at his peak. That said, if he eventually becomes as valuable at Petry, that would be awesome, because peak Petry was one hell of a defenceman.

[Commandant]

2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

TBH I always thought the metric of “comparing two players’ production at the early same age” was a bad one. Lots of years separate Barron from his future. He has a ways to go before he even establishes himself as an everyday NHLer, let alone the #1A defenceman Petry eventually grew into at his peak. That said, if he eventually becomes as valuable at Petry, that would be awesome, because peak Petry was one hell of a defenceman.

 

Exactly right.  He might be better than Petry was at the same age, but many defenders were better than the 21 year old Petry.  The growth that Petry took to become a top 20 level defenceman in the NHL at his peak is not normal and is not repeated by all D in his range at age 21. 

[alfredoh2009]

3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

TBH I always thought the metric of “comparing two players’ production at the early same age” was a bad one. Lots of years separate Barron from his future. He has a ways to go before he even establishes himself as an everyday NHLer, let alone the #1A defenceman Petry eventually grew into at his peak. That said, if he eventually becomes as valuable at Petry, that would be awesome, because peak Petry was one hell of a defenceman.

 

I brought up this comparison, so let me clarify:

when Barron was traded to MTL and played a few NHL games, I was very excited about it. I remember defending the trade as a solid one for the Habs. He was fairly good on those two games, but maybe it was in part to whom he was paired with allowing him to be confident.

 

When he was cut the season after, I was disappointed for him. He didn't play well in Laval and it took him a while to elevate his game. This season, he was demoted early in the season and again it took him some time to find his game. Watching in Laval, I was not impressed with how he plays: he takes too many chances to my liking and needs to be bailed out by his partner. But when he was valled up at the end of the season I was surprised that he was more reliable defending at the NHL level.

 

So, in my mind, I thought I was comparing two similar RDs with a couple of years trying to establish themselves in the NHL. Two good skaters, although not explosive. Two players that are not that great on board battles. Two defensemen that like to enter the O-zone with the puck and that think offense-first but are decent in their own zone.

 

[Prime Minister Koivu]

9 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

I brought up this comparison, so let me clarify:

when Barron was traded to MTL and played a few NHL games, I was very excited about it. I remember defending the trade as a solid one for the Habs. He was fairly good on those two games, but maybe it was in part to whom he was paired with allowing him to be confident.

 

When he was cut the season after, I was disappointed for him. He didn't play well in Laval and it took him a while to elevate his game. This season, he was demoted early in the season and again it took him some time to find his game. Watching in Laval, I was not impressed with how he plays: he takes too many chances to my liking and needs to be bailed out by his partner. But when he was valled up at the end of the season I was surprised that he was more reliable defending at the NHL level.

 

So, in my mind, I thought I was comparing two similar RDs with a couple of years trying to establish themselves in the NHL. Two good skaters, although not explosive. Two players that are not that great on board battles. Two defensemen that like to enter the O-zone with the puck and that think offense-first but are decent in their own zone.

 

I love your enthusiasm for Barron. 
 

It would be utterly amazing if Barron turned into Petry. Our RD position would be exceptionally strong and it would allow Guhle back on the left. 
 

Hope your analysis proves true. 

[alfredoh2009]

5 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

I love your enthusiasm for Barron. 
 

It would be utterly amazing if Barron turned into Petry. Our RD position would be exceptionally strong and it would allow Guhle back on the left. 
 

Hope your analysis proves true. 

 

I wouldn't call it an analysis. Brain, Commandant and others a far better than me at doing that.

 

It is just my humble impression on Barron