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Plekanec hasn't proven himself as a consistent #2 centre, but he's definitely good enough to try out for the spot. It is a WINGER that we need. Unless you want Pacioretty, D'Agostini or Sergei Kostitsyn starting the season on one of the top two lines? We have been rushing our prospects lately. That doesn't just mean that we allowed them to make the NHL at an early age, it also means that we've been putting them in positions that were over their heads. Cheechoo (or even Grier? lol) is a better option than D'Agostini on an offensive line IMO.

In answer to the popular counter-argument that young players develop more when they have more ice time, I think Dags will develop better playing on a 3rd or 4th line (or even as a spare forward) than while being schooled on the 1st line. Let players earn their spots on the roster. With experience, they'll move up the depth chart.

In the Vinny thing, I've always said that I preferred to have a TOP center and so-so wingers (e.g. D'agostini on Vinny's wing) rather than a so-so center with an "elite" winger (e.g. Kovalev on Plek's wing)

My argument stands.

I'd rather have Marleau with D'ago

than Plekanec with Kost and whoever "elite"/vet/star you can get.

e.g.

Kost Marleau d'Ago >>>>> Kost Plek Tanguay (best available forward)

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That's right, it's ridiculous to think a guy who has been a consistent 20 goal scorer at every level will be at best a 20 scorer. At the junior level these guys get more ice time against lesser opponents. It would make perfect sense that less icetime against a higher level of competetion would mean far greater offensive numbers. All those examples you gave-like Mario Lemieux, Gretztky, Crosby-who were all 20 goal scores at the junior and AHL level totally proved your point. He's not a late bloomer, he's putting up the kind of numbers you would expect. Guy Carbonneau would proove the argument I would make: guys do not become better scorers at the NHL level than they do at the junior level. Some people's assessments of the scoring ability and skill of players like Max Laperriere and D'Agostini is unrealistic. I never said D'ago stunk or that i would give him away for nothing.

so your theory is that guys never score more in the nhl than they did in junior? Bob gainey was not a prolific scorer in his junior career but he turned out all right , i think.

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That's right, it's ridiculous to think a guy who has been a consistent 20 goal scorer at every level will be at best a 20 scorer. At the junior level these guys get more ice time against lesser opponents. It would make perfect sense that less icetime against a higher level of competetion would mean far greater offensive numbers. All those examples you gave-like Mario Lemieux, Gretztky, Crosby-who were all 20 goal scores at the junior and AHL level totally proved your point. He's not a late bloomer, he's putting up the kind of numbers you would expect. Guy Carbonneau would proove the argument I would make: guys do not become better scorers at the NHL level than they do at the junior level. Some people's assessments of the scoring ability and skill of players like Max Laperriere and D'Agostini is unrealistic. I never said D'ago stunk or that i would give him away for nothing.

By your logic, a player who isn't good enough to be drafted at age 18 will never be good enough for the NHL. Seriously, some guys max out their talent before they are even drafted. A guy isn't a bust because the scouts misread his talent. Guys become busts because they are done/nearly done developing as players. At age 18, they are about as good as they are going to get. Guys who are not busts continue to get better as players after they are drafted. Is it likely a player's offensive skills will grow so much that a poor scorer in juniors will become a good scorer in the pros? Not likely, but still quite possible.

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Plekanec hasn't proven himself as a consistent #2 centre, but he's definitely good enough to try out for the spot. It is a WINGER that we need. Unless you want Pacioretty, D'Agostini or Sergei Kostitsyn starting the season on one of the top two lines? We have been rushing our prospects lately. That doesn't just mean that we allowed them to make the NHL at an early age, it also means that we've been putting them in positions that were over their heads. Cheechoo (or even Grier? lol) is a better option than D'Agostini on an offensive line IMO.

In answer to the popular counter-argument that young players develop more when they have more ice time, I think Dags will develop better playing on a 3rd or 4th line (or even as a spare forward) than while being schooled on the 1st line. Let players earn their spots on the roster. With experience, they'll move up the depth chart.

Excellent post. Myself, I would try Latendresse on the top-2 lines. I don't believe this would qualify as 'rushing'- although young, Gui has been paying his dues on the lower lines for what, three years now? Yes, this would mean sacrificing his excellent chemistry with Lapierre, but it would allow a guy like Pacioretty to learn the game properly and give us a sustained look at Latendresse's offensive upside. That'd be my 'go-to' position on the wings. After 20 games, re-assess.

I hear you on rushing players, but I also think that in a cap system you just don't have the luxury of playing costly vets at every position. Lats, unlike the three guys you mention, is a young player with some experience who may reasonably be asked to take another step forward this year.

Of course, all of this may mean some awkward jigging with positions (LW, RW, etc.) so I may just be blowing smoke. If so, I'd rather see us try to get an inexpensive short-term fill-in for the missing slot rather than some bigger name that will cost us assets - the idea being just to plug the hole until one of our young players is ready to step up.

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

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Excellent post. Myself, I would try Latendresse on the top-2 lines. I don't believe this would qualify as 'rushing'- although young, Gui has been paying his dues on the lower lines for what, three years now? Yes, this would mean sacrificing his excellent chemistry with Lapierre, but it would allow a guy like Pacioretty to learn the game properly and give us a sustained look at Latendresse's offensive upside. That'd be my 'go-to' position on the wings. After 20 games, re-assess.

I hear you on rushing players, but I also think that in a cap system you just don't have the luxury of playing costly vets at every position. Lats, unlike the three guys you mention, is a young player with some experience who may reasonably be asked to take another step forward this year.

Of course, all of this may mean some awkward jigging with positions (LW, RW, etc.) so I may just be blowing smoke. If so, I'd rather see us try to get an inexpensive short-term fill-in for the missing slot rather than some bigger name that will cost us assets - the idea being just to plug the hole until one of our young players is ready to step up.

I was a big fan of Lats in his first year, and bragged continually with my Leaf friends each game we finally had a player that could send fear into those dirty leaf players. After 35 or so games, there was a big change in his game. Hitting the boards for sound effect, rather than the player. I think he found out rather quickly he was playing against men not boys and backed off from what made him look a little better than the rest in junior. Think of his play against Boston and Toronto he is almost invisible.

Here is a scary thought to consider , Lapierre had a fractured ankle near the end of last season and played on it. . .Latendresse was not able to keep up with him. Back-checking is almost non-existent with him and he is real,real defensive liability.

I would be more concerned as a coach with Latendresse slowing the pace of play of the newly acquired speedsters . Martin’s coaching history suggests he relies on speed and defensive play . I just don’t see Latendresse playing on anything more than the 3rd. or 4th. line and might very well be rotated in and out of the lineup this season.

However, your point is well taken, we are one real good winger away from being a contender. A Burrows type player, that can skate, score and has attitude. They are not easy to find and get.

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I was a big fan of Lats in his first year, and bragged continually with my Leaf friends each game we finally had a player that could send fear into those dirty leaf players. After 35 or so games, there was a big change in his game. Hitting the boards for sound effect, rather than the player. I think he found out rather quickly he was playing against men not boys and backed off from what made him look a little better than the rest in junior. Think of his play against Boston and Toronto he is almost invisible.

Here is a scary thought to consider , Lapierre had a fractured ankle near the end of last season and played on it. . .Latendresse was not able to keep up with him. Back-checking is almost non-existent with him and he is real,real defensive liability.

I would be more concerned as a coach with Latendresse slowing the pace of play of the newly acquired speedsters . Martin’s coaching history suggests he relies on speed and defensive play . I just don’t see Latendresse playing on anything more than the 3rd. or 4th. line and might very well be rotated in and out of the lineup this season.

However, your point is well taken, we are one real good winger away from being a contender. A Burrows type player, that can skate, score and has attitude. They are not easy to find and get.

He gave a big concussion to a player and was never the same after... HE know he can be dangerous for... people's life/career.

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I was a big fan of Lats in his first year, and bragged continually with my Leaf friends each game we finally had a player that could send fear into those dirty leaf players. After 35 or so games, there was a big change in his game. Hitting the boards for sound effect, rather than the player. I think he found out rather quickly he was playing against men not boys and backed off from what made him look a little better than the rest in junior. Think of his play against Boston and Toronto he is almost invisible.

Here is a scary thought to consider , Lapierre had a fractured ankle near the end of last season and played on it. . .Latendresse was not able to keep up with him. Back-checking is almost non-existent with him and he is real,real defensive liability.

I would be more concerned as a coach with Latendresse slowing the pace of play of the newly acquired speedsters . Martin’s coaching history suggests he relies on speed and defensive play . I just don’t see Latendresse playing on anything more than the 3rd. or 4th. line and might very well be rotated in and out of the lineup this season.

However, your point is well taken, we are one real good winger away from being a contender. A Burrows type player, that can skate, score and has attitude. They are not easy to find and get.

Lats is slow, no question. He is also nearly impossible to dislodge from the puck and has shown moments of awesome ability to dominate down low in the offensive end. Speed is hardly everything, and if Lats can read the play and anticipate correctly, he is a credible candidate to grow into a legitimate top-6 power forward IMHO. I question whether he's such a defensive liability, too - he and Laps combined to make a highly effective third line, after all; it's an error to think Laps did it all himself. Still, your concerns are valid. I'm not saying he is a LOCK to be effective in the top-6, just that it seems like a reasonable move, at this stage, to give him that opportunity. 16 goals without PP time is hardly anything to sneeze at; using an admittedly crude arithmetic, we're probably looking at at least a 25-goal man IF he can keep up with the pace on the top-6. Plus he'd add the size we need up front. Definitely worth a shot, I think.

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

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IMO, it is Lats or Max Pac on the top 6. The only concern is the cap situation. Max Pac might have to go down for a while because of that. But, if Max Pac can level up his game at training camp, I wouldn't be surprised to see Bob move out someone to give him a full time roster spot.

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Excellent post. Myself, I would try Latendresse on the top-2 lines. I don't believe this would qualify as 'rushing'- although young, Gui has been paying his dues on the lower lines for what, three years now? Yes, this would mean sacrificing his excellent chemistry with Lapierre, but it would allow a guy like Pacioretty to learn the game properly and give us a sustained look at Latendresse's offensive upside. That'd be my 'go-to' position on the wings. After 20 games, re-assess.

I hear you on rushing players, but I also think that in a cap system you just don't have the luxury of playing costly vets at every position. Lats, unlike the three guys you mention, is a young player with some experience who may reasonably be asked to take another step forward this year.

Of course, all of this may mean some awkward jigging with positions (LW, RW, etc.) so I may just be blowing smoke. If so, I'd rather see us try to get an inexpensive short-term fill-in for the missing slot rather than some bigger name that will cost us assets - the idea being just to plug the hole until one of our young players is ready to step up.

I would also play Latendresse in the top 6 (on the first line). He's young, but he's paid his dues on the third and fourth lines, and earned the chance to get these minutes. When his competition is the aforementioned three rookies/freshmen, Lats is pretty experienced.

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as for the talk about zherdev. no way. gainey would be taking walks by the river with him on a daily basis.habs need less drama this season, if that is at all possible.

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By your logic, a player who isn't good enough to be drafted at age 18 will never be good enough for the NHL. Seriously, some guys max out their talent before they are even drafted. A guy isn't a bust because the scouts misread his talent. Guys become busts because they are done/nearly done developing as players. At age 18, they are about as good as they are going to get. Guys who are not busts continue to get better as players after they are drafted. Is it likely a player's offensive skills will grow so much that a poor scorer in juniors will become a good scorer in the pros? Not likely, but still quite possible.

Actually I was talking about junior (which a player can actuaklly play until he's about 20) and Ahl Echl etc. BTW, Matt D'agostini is not 18, and I never said not to draft 18 year old.

Edited by yorickbrown

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so your theory is that guys never score more in the nhl than they did in junior? Bob gainey was not a prolific scorer in his junior career but he turned out all right , i think.

Bob Gainey's best total in junior was 22 goals. At the NHL his best goal total was 23. That's a whopping difference of one. I've learnt my lesson.

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Bob Gainey's best total in junior was 22 goals. At the NHL his best goal total was 23. That's a whopping difference of one. I've learnt my lesson.

I think he meant that the comparison is actually magnified ecause scoring in junior is slightly easier then in the NHL ;)

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Excellent post. Myself, I would try Latendresse on the top-2 lines. I don't believe this would qualify as 'rushing'- although young, Gui has been paying his dues on the lower lines for what, three years now? Yes, this would mean sacrificing his excellent chemistry with Lapierre, but it would allow a guy like Pacioretty to learn the game properly and give us a sustained look at Latendresse's offensive upside. That'd be my 'go-to' position on the wings. After 20 games, re-assess.

Excellent idea. I'd go so far as to give him 40 games to really see what he can do with top line minutes and some PP time as well. If it doesn't work out with Gui, put Pacioretty on the top two lines for the last 40 games!

Back-checking is almost non-existent with him and he is real,real defensive liability.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you that one.

Gui's +/- rating has improved every year since he made the team 3 years ago. His first year he was a defensive liability, no doubt about it! He was a -20. In his second year, he improved and finished the season with a -2. And once again last year, he improved some more and finished at +4. To say that he's a defensive liability and that he never back checks is simply not true. I think the kid deserves a REAL shot on one of the top 2 lines with some PP time. See what he can do with it for 1/2 a season.

Edited by Habsfan

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I think the team is fine the way it is. I would like to have Marleau too but there's no way we could ever hope to get him unless we get rid of something we need, mainly Hamrlik. With the defense UFA additions I think we have a very solid defense on paper, but that all changes if we lose Hamrlik. Playing up yo his potential, he's probably our best defensive defenseman, a top pairing guy. Marleau would be nice, but defense first.

I also have confidence Pleks can shoulder the load. He will be a good 2nd line centre.

Keep the team the way it is, don't call for trades just because summer is boring!

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More musings from not exactly the most reputable sites, but hey, it's something to talk about:

Manny Fernandez to receive an offer from the Habs? (Around 900k) http://www.toutsurlehockey.com/rumeurs-de-...avec-le-ch.html

Prospal received an offer from the Habs in the $2M/season range: http://www.thegoalcrease.com/modules.php?n...r=0&thold=0

Nothing overly significant, but Fernandez could be a half decent backup should Halak be dealt. Don't see it happening, but you could do worse I suppose.

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They both make sense on on some level, however that means BG would be giving up or moving younger assests. Namely Halak and Pleks to make room.

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I prefer Prospal to Dags and Kostitsyn. He'd be a decent pick up at 2 million dollars. He wouldn't be counted on as more than a 2nd/3rd liner.

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You know what catches my eye with regards to the Fernandez rumour? (Other than minutes after I posted the original link, it popped up on most other boards of course). The report suggests the Habs offered Denis $900,000 to come back this season, a raise of $300,000. He wasn't all that good in Hamilton last season and showed no signs of being able to step in and help if need be at the NHL level. I wasn't expecting the Habs to bring him back period let alone allegedly offering him a raise.

We signed Sanford for the same salary Denis had last year and at this stage of their respective careers, I think you'd have a hard time finding people who think Denis is the better goalie.

And for the record, anyone think Fernandez would accept a TW deal knowing Sanford's currently on one? That's another part of this I find a little puzzling.

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More musings from not exactly the most reputable sites, but hey, it's something to talk about:

Manny Fernandez to receive an offer from the Habs? (Around 900k) http://www.toutsurlehockey.com/rumeurs-de-...avec-le-ch.html

Prospal received an offer from the Habs in the $2M/season range: http://www.thegoalcrease.com/modules.php?n...r=0&thold=0

Nothing overly significant, but Fernandez could be a half decent backup should Halak be dealt. Don't see it happening, but you could do worse I suppose.

why would we sign prospal?

there is no reason whatsoever that I can find.

sign Lang ok, maybe.

Prospal?! no way.

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As for Prospal...well, wingers are a bit of an issue with this lineup, as BTH has observed. It's true that we're short one proven top-6 winger. Prospal doesn't seem to be that guy at this stage of his career, but then again signing him could be a 'depth' move, to facilitate an effective platoon of wingers for the top-6. (When Dags or whoever falters, Prospal can step in, etc.). He's also one season removed from a nearly PPG-performance in the playoffs with the Flyers.

And - I don't know too much about Prospal - has he done any time at C? If so, that would be a relevant calculation for Gainey as well.

I doubt he'd be a bad pick up. But obviously he won't set the world aflame either.

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

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Prospal, my god no..."The horror...the horror..."

Fernandez and Sanford, so when do we move Halak? For the Marleau trade?

On another note, it is great to be back in Canada...and beautiful to be back in Montreal! Have to change my handle I guess

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This must mean it's pretty much official, but I'll post it in the rumor thread anyways... Greg Stewart has finally inked a deal. $500,000 (league minimum) and it's a two-way contract. As per the incredibly accurate http://www.capgeek.com/

Chipchura got a one way deal, but Stewart got a two way deal. I assume that's why it took so long for Stewart to sign... he wanted the one way deal.

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has anyone else been following the theo fleury thing?

while I don't think he should be a top priority signing, if we can't find anything else I would take a look at him. I wouldn't be expecting him to play top 6 minutes or anything, but he could help some of our smaller forwards learn to play bigger than their size.

Just a thought.

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has anyone else been following the theo fleury thing?

while I don't think he should be a top priority signing, if we can't find anything else I would take a look at him. I wouldn't be expecting him to play top 6 minutes or anything, but he could help some of our smaller forwards learn to play bigger than their size.

Just a thought.

I would not even care scouting him.

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