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JoeLassister

Andrei Markov tribute thread - officially not back

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illWill    399
51 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

This defence as it stands is above average?  

 

No, its not. 

A team missing a top pair LHD is not above average. 

 

That's like saying a team missing a top line left winger can't be an above average team. The statement is about the defense as a whole, not who slots in where. If they had Weber, Doughty and Burns playing RHD, but had no top line LHD could they still be above average? At the very least the Habs have an average defense as it stands

 

 

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4 minutes ago, illWill said:

 

That's like saying a team missing a top line left winger can't be an above average team. The statement is about the defense as a whole, not who slots in where. If they had Weber, Doughty and Burns playing RHD, but had no top line LHD could they still be above average? At the very least the Habs have an average defense as it stands

 

 

 

The individual players are mostly good and Weber is excellent, but I don't understand its one-dimensionality. It's like having a FW corps filled with mid-level small, shifty guys...it'll work some nights depending on the matchups, but doesn't seem to make sense as a recipe for success longer term. Petry is the only puck mover. That's bizarre.

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theres more then one way to move the puck up the ice... and most times skating it out isn't always the best option! for example weber makes quick decisions with the puck and pushes the puck forward through simple high percentage passing not necessarily the home run breakaway pass, alzner and benn are very similar, they all seem to move the puck quickly forward through passing rather skating. this is an effective way to get the puck out as long as the forwards are responsible and not releasing on there defensive responsibilities to early.

markov for example was an extremely good passer, but this late in his career moving the puck by way of skating was hardly his forte.

 

petry is our best skater, but he's hardly the only guy able to efficiently move the puck forward and transition to offence.

 

the habs have a ways to go and i'm intrigued to see how this team finally takes shape... friedman recently reported his belief that MB is dreaming big at the moment bigger then most of us suspect!

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nihilz    29
35 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

theres more then one way to move the puck up the ice... and most times skating it out isn't always the best option! for example weber makes quick decisions with the puck and pushes the puck forward through simple high percentage passing not necessarily the home run breakaway pass, alzner and benn are very similar, they all seem to move the puck quickly forward through passing rather skating. this is an effective way to get the puck out as long as the forwards are responsible and not releasing on there defensive responsibilities to early.

markov for example was an extremely good passer, but this late in his career moving the puck by way of skating was hardly his forte.

 

petry is our best skater, but he's hardly the only guy able to efficiently move the puck forward and transition to offence.

 

the habs have a ways to go and i'm intrigued to see how this team finally takes shape... friedman recently reported his belief that MB is dreaming big at the moment bigger then most of us suspect!

Exactly. This off season has been peculiar for Bergevin. He's usually quick to dish out contracts to guys he NEEDS to retain. I don't see him going into the season with this much cap space. That would be fan base suicide and essentially worse than tanking. He must have something in the works. I think/hope we're going to see a blockbuster with unexpected core pieces leaving. Unless the Ruski clique was bad for Galchenyuk/room. in general. *tongue in cheek.

 

Markov will be missed. He should have hired a proper agent. He shot himself in the foot and essentially stubbornly priced himself out of the only team he's known. It's a shame, but Streit is 1/100th of the cost and cements a LD by committee approach. I have to wait to see what that cap space turns into. Right now Im optimistically skeptical.  

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Meller93    122
17 hours ago, DON said:

Who cares what I think

If I didn't care what you guys think I wouldn't be posting on this board; hearing your thoughts are what makes this forum fun

 

I'm all for you supporting MB, I'm just also interested in hearing why. It's not a worth while discussion if you blindly assert "good move" each and every time with no reason. Who knows, you might actually change my mind if you have a good point!

 

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JoeLassister    272
2 hours ago, illWill said:

 

That's like saying a team missing a top line left winger can't be an above average team. The statement is about the defense as a whole, not who slots in where. If they had Weber, Doughty and Burns playing RHD, but had no top line LHD could they still be above average? At the very least the Habs have an average defense as it stands

 

 

Commandant's post was more about how many top pair dmen whe have rather than how many top pair LD we have.

Having 1 top pair,  2 second pair  and 4-5  third pair  dmen doesn't make our defense average.

 

i would rank our defence between 18th and 22nd in the league, personally.

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Commandant    604
3 hours ago, DON said:

To start the season last year, who was the top pairing? #79 is wrong guess.

 

TOI/gm 24:54 three years ago, 23:50 two years ago and last year 21:50...see any trend? 

 

Nearly 22 minutes a game is still big minutes. 

Over 20 minutes a night is something that only 3 defencemen on our current blueline have shown that they are currently able to handle.  Where is the fourth. 

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Commandant    604
2 hours ago, illWill said:

 

That's like saying a team missing a top line left winger can't be an above average team. The statement is about the defense as a whole, not who slots in where. If they had Weber, Doughty and Burns playing RHD, but had no top line LHD could they still be above average? At the very least the Habs have an average defense as it stands

 

 

 

A defence with 1 top pair player

 

2 guys who are decent in the second pair

 

and a bunch of third pair/press box guys is not Above average.  

 

Add in the fact that there is a serious, and obvious deficiency in puck moving ability and skating, in a league where these things become more important each year, and its Not even average. 

 

Markov (or a player of his caliber) really was the difference between a good defence and a below average one. 

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Commandant    604
1 hour ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

theres more then one way to move the puck up the ice... and most times skating it out isn't always the best option! for example weber makes quick decisions with the puck and pushes the puck forward through simple high percentage passing not necessarily the home run breakaway pass, alzner and benn are very similar, they all seem to move the puck quickly forward through passing rather skating. this is an effective way to get the puck out as long as the forwards are responsible and not releasing on there defensive responsibilities to early.

markov for example was an extremely good passer, but this late in his career moving the puck by way of skating was hardly his forte.

 

petry is our best skater, but he's hardly the only guy able to efficiently move the puck forward and transition to offence.

 

the habs have a ways to go and i'm intrigued to see how this team finally takes shape... friedman recently reported his belief that MB is dreaming big at the moment bigger then most of us suspect!

 

Benn is not a good passer and does not move the puck forward efficiently and effectively through his passing skill. 

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hab29RETIRED    163
1 hour ago, nihilz said:

Exactly. This off season has been peculiar for Bergevin. He's usually quick to dish out contracts to guys he NEEDS to retain. I don't see him going into the season with this much cap space. That would be fan base suicide and essentially worse than tanking. He must have something in the works. I think/hope we're going to see a blockbuster with unexpected core pieces leaving. Unless the Ruski clique was bad for Galchenyuk/room. in general. *tongue in cheek.

 

Markov will be missed. He should have hired a proper agent. He shot himself in the foot and essentially stubbornly priced himself out of the only team he's known. It's a shame, but Streit is 1/100th of the cost and cements a LD by committee approach. I have to wait to see what that cap space turns into. Right now Im optimistically skeptical.  

From lavoie NHL radio, it sounded like MB offered Markov $4m plus another $1m to $1.5m in bonuses on a 1 yr deal.  Lavoie thought that was a good offer to Markov, bur why would Markov take that, given his numbers and comparables around the league???   Why should he take less ham Petry, when, despite being 38, Markov is still the better dman??  I'd be stubborn to.  

 

And at this stage of his career Streit is less likely than 1/100 of a dman as Markov is.  It would have been better using  That extra $700k toward Markov as a top 4, than adding another 7th/8th dman who is nothing more than a pp specialist/. It would have made sense to pick up Streit at the deadline to help with the PP in the playoffs, when there aren't many other her options.  It makes zero sense to pick up 4 bottom pairing dmen, when you have holes in your top 4. 

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Dalhabs    78
7 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

From lavoie NHL radio, it sounded like MB offered Markov $4m plus another $1m to $1.5m in bonuses on a 1 yr deal.  Lavoie thought that was a good offer to Markov, bur why would Markov take that, given his numbers and comparables around the league???   Why should he take less ham Petry, when, despite being 38, Markov is still the better dman??  I'd be stubborn to.  

 

And at this stage of his career Streit is less likely than 1/100 of a dman as Markov is.  It would have been better using  That extra $700k toward Markov as a top 4, than adding another 7th/8th dman who is nothing more than a pp specialist/. It would have made sense to pick up Streit at the deadline to help with the PP in the playoffs, when there aren't many other her options.  It makes zero sense to pick up 4 bottom pairing dmen, when you have holes in your top 4. 

Soooo 4M/year + the 1M wasted on Hemsky + the 700k on Streit is 5.7M. I would rather have Markov for that than the other two.

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DON    24
36 minutes ago, Meller93 said:

If I didn't care what you guys think I wouldn't be posting on this board; hearing your thoughts are what makes this forum fun

 

I'm all for you supporting MB, I'm just also interested in hearing why. It's not a worth while discussion if you blindly assert "good move" each and every time with no reason. Who knows, you might actually change my mind if you have a good point!

 

I should of said I assume that was rhetorical question.

Already put forth reasons why I am OK with non-signing; basically defense is fine, forward group is lacking and in need of more skill, also we all know Bergevin will not sit on $8.5m for the season. Markov walking just makes me more curious what is in the works before Oct.

Blindly assert...what is it with "blind this or that" lately? I have stated my reasons (repeatedly) for posted opinion on everything. Sorry I cant get too excited about Markov going home and see it as a major error by Bergy, or get all worked up saying the team will be this or that when season start is long ways away. Seems most objective voices still feel Habs will be playoff team and maybe even repeat as division winner, which I tend to agree with but 82 games is long season and no one has a crystal ball.

If team sucks and Molson fires Bergy mid-season or after playoffs, I wont be too upset neither.

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nihilz    29

If it were pre-season. I'd be on board with this point of view.

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dlbalr    654
44 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

From lavoie NHL radio, it sounded like MB offered Markov $4m plus another $1m to $1.5m in bonuses on a 1 yr deal.  Lavoie thought that was a good offer to Markov, bur why would Markov take that, given his numbers and comparables around the league???   Why should he take less ham Petry, when, despite being 38, Markov is still the better dman??  I'd be stubborn to. 

3

 

That's more than I thought he'd be offered.  I had him around $4.25-$4.5 million with no bonuses as what his market value should be.  Yes, he's more productive than Petry but 38 years old is 38 years old.  That age alone will scare off a lot of suitors which would significantly hurt his market price.

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16 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

That's more than I thought he'd be offered.  I had him around $4.25-$4.5 million with no bonuses as what his market value should be.  Yes, he's more productive than Petry but 38 years old is 38 years old.  That age alone will scare off a lot of suitors which would significantly hurt his market price.

 

In a one year deal? Worth it. Look at what Marleau got. 

 

I kept hearing rumours that "Markov' camp" was talking to other teams but he doesn't have an agent and dealt with Bergevin personally. I'm leaning to the belief he never talked to anyone else really and just negotiated with Bergevin. When that fell through he decided it would be better to goto Russia where he can represent at the Olympics, maybe even as Captain. He's got a two year deal over there. If he comes back to the Habs after that it'll be a retirement deal, maybe just to get to the 1,000 game mark. 

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illWill    399
3 hours ago, JoeLassister said:

Commandant's post was more about how many top pair dmen whe have rather than how many top pair LD we have.

Having 1 top pair,  2 second pair  and 4-5  third pair  dmen doesn't make our defense average.

 

i would rank our defence between 18th and 22nd in the league, personally.

 

Yes but our 1 top pair and 2 second pair defensemen are top notch. And I also believe whoever wins the 3rd pairing will also be one of the better in the league. So yes, we don't have a quality #1 LHD, but everyone else slots in great where they are supposed to. And they also have a lot of depth which goes a long way during the season and playoffs as we all know. 

 

In my opinion the Habs have a better defense than:

 

Buffalo

Carolina

Colorado

Dallas 

Detroit

Edmonton 

New Jersey

Islanders

Philly

Toronto

Vancouver

Las Vegas

 

And you can argue that they are better than:

 

Chicago

Boston

Arizona

Florida

L.A

Pittsburgh

Tampa

Washington

Winnipeg

 

But they are not better than:

 

Anaheim

Calgary

Columbus

Minnesota

Nashville

Rangers

Ottawa

San Jose

St. Louis

 

 

Perhaps the Habs defense is a bit better than you think after comparing it to the rest of the league.

 

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JoeLassister    272

Well,  let's say 15th to 20th... We're not beating all of the middle section teams for sure.

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Link67    106

The question now becomes what move is more important to make at this time, shopping and spending the cap on a top 4 LHD with some offensive upside, or spending the cap on a move that gets us a Center who can play on our top line.

 

In my opinion we will now only be able to fix one of these 2 issues before the season, however the cap is there to pretty much accept nearly any contract to fill one of the voids. I feel deep down that i would personally prefer to enter the season with the defense as is but with a top center added in, but I am not entirely set on if that is in fact the right way to go. I guess it all comes down to who end up available at each position.

 

 

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DON    24
59 minutes ago, Link67 said:

The question now becomes what move is more important to make at this time, shopping and spending the cap on a top 4 LHD with some offensive upside, NO or spending the cap on a move that gets us a Center who can play on our top line. YES

Just my opinion, but not even close what is needed more; without a super puck-moving brick wall between the pipes like they have it might be different, but Price is on the team so...

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Commandant    604

We are not better a better defence than....

Florida, La, Carolina, Tampa, Washington, Winnipeg, Chicago IMO. 

 

All teams you named. 

 

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Why not? Absoluty nothing points to Chicago having a better D core then us. They just lost there glue guy and are pretty much 2 deep in seabrook and Keith.... Washington? Winnipeg? 

 

Dont get me wrong as historically the habs have had an atrocious record the last 10 years with marky out of the line up. But the sky has not fallen quite yet. 

 

Still think dumping ping plex and shaw gives us the cap space needed. To sign. Its Markov and a Centre!

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Carolina especially. 

 

Faulk/Slavin/Hanafin/Pesce is loads better than Weber/Petry/Alzner/Streit.

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illWill    399

The entire defense plus depth has to be looked at rather than just a few players in order to properly compare. 

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25 minutes ago, illWill said:

The entire defense plus depth has to be looked at rather than just a few players in order to properly compare. 

Yeah I don't give two bits who a team has to replace their #6 defenceman. Also Montreal's defensive prospect depth is weak. 

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Slavin is a good hockey player

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