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Prime Minister Koivu

Why is our defense so bad? Is Julien to blame?

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16 hours ago, DON said:

But really is terrible comparison example NFL vs NHL draft.

NCAA vs High School kids, NFL typically drafts for roster needs; NHL draft BPA for couple to several years down the road...so current roster is mostly irrelevant, unless picking top 5.

 

 

Anyway,  my point is  that  in the NFL,  draft is a quick way to fill rosters needs and teams use it a lot.

 

In the NHL, draft is not a quick way to fill needs unless you're picking 1st OA in a draft year that includes a Crosby/McDavid/Matthews.

Otherwise, it's a 2-3 years plan and things will change within 2-3 years.

What MB is doing, building through the draft, gets in total contradiction with the main assets he possesses :  30+ yo  Price and Weber, who are set to win now.

That's why I blame MB for our lack of defense, more than I blame CJ.

 

Even if I also blame CJ  for coaching to win 2-1  when they have an early lead instead of keep going and trying to end the game with, in the end, just more goals than the other team.

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2 hours ago, JoeLassister said:

What MB is doing, building through the draft, gets in total contradiction with the main assets he possesses :  30+ yo  Price and Weber, who are set to win now

Because you have 2 or 3 players in their 30s, shouldn't factor too much into anything...unless you already have solid supporting cast like Pitt-Chicago and couple elite forwards. Which Habs don't have any of.

 

2 hours ago, JoeLassister said:

That's why I blame MB for our lack of defense, more than I blame CJ.

I would have to toss some blame to Richardson & CJ's way, but I agree that MB is mostly at fault for not adding someone more skilled than Chiarot.

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Chiarot is a nice addition as a 3/4 dman.   We need a top pair LHD though. 

 

Also I still think Chiarot/Petry will work better than Chiarot/Weber which still has some issues clearing the zone from time to time.... a puck mover beside Weber would be a better fit IMO. 

 

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It's about depth if you got a bunch of 4th line nhlers playing top line minutes, you are what you pay for. We don't have a good balance when it comes to our forward/defense group.

 

Teams that have drafted elite superstars never win until they build a team around them and add the depth. The so called roll players.

 

Washington had Ovechkin and Backstrom for the longest time and couldn't win tell they started adding depth around them in Kuznetsov, Wilson, Eller, Carlson and T.J. Then they found the right coach to bring them all together, and they finally won.

 

We have just have never had team depth. Which is why when healthy we are good sometimes great, when going through injuries we're a lottery team.

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5 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Chiarot is a nice addition as a 3/4 dman.   We need a top pair LHD though. 

 

Also I still think Chiarot/Petry will work better than Chiarot/Weber which still has some issues clearing the zone from time to time.... a puck mover beside Weber would be a better fit IMO. 

 

 

Yes for sure.

 

I used to think that if we could get a second pairing Dman then we would be set but what we need is a true #1 LD - ideally young as that would give us real strength on the left side with Romanov there too. Byram would be the perfect fit

 

I used to really like Chairot/Weber until you pointed out how they bleed goals. I really started paying attention to that pairing in the light of keeping pucks out of the net as opposed to how they smash opponents into the boards and they are awful together.

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55 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

It's about depth if you got a bunch of 4th line nhlers playing top line minutes, you are what you pay for. We don't have a good balance when it comes to our forward/defense group.

 

Teams that have drafted elite superstars never win until they build a team around them and add the depth. The so called roll players.

 

Washington had Ovechkin and Backstrom for the longest time and couldn't win tell they started adding depth around them in Kuznetsov, Wilson, Eller, Carlson and T.J. Then they found the right coach to bring them all together, and they finally won.

 

We have just have never had team depth. Which is why when healthy we are good sometimes great, when going through injuries we're a lottery team.

 

Washington was always a contender, since they had Ovechkin and Backstrom.  

 

Again, its not the Wilson, Eller, TJ types we are missing.... its the superstar like Ovechkin and Backstrom.  We have the depth... we don't have a superstar to drag the team through when the depth is injured. 

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2 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Again, its not the Wilson, Eller, TJ types we are missing.... its the superstar like Ovechkin and Backstrom.  We have the depth... we don't have a superstar to drag the team through when the depth is injured. 

100% agree, since mid 90s how have the Habs avoided adding even just one young elite superstar forward?

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

Washington was always a contender, since they had Ovechkin and Backstrom.  

 

Again, its not the Wilson, Eller, TJ types we are missing.... its the superstar like Ovechkin and Backstrom.  We have the depth... we don't have a superstar to drag the team through when the depth is injured. 

That makes no sense. Your depth is their to help with injuries. Your superstar is suppose to make players around him better. Price is our elite superstar, he makes the team play bigger than they are,  but he can't carry the team on his back by himself,  He needs help around him. Weber is a superstar but again he can't carry a team by himself.

  You need to build the team around your superstar's, you add depth to balance everything out.  Depth is balance and this team doesn't have Any.

 

Explain San Jose ,  Toronto , Edmonton, Philadelphia and Tampa with your theory? All team's with more than 1 elite superstar but can't win in the playoffs.

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2 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

It's about depth if you got a bunch of 4th line nhlers playing top line minutes, you are what you pay for. We don't have a good balance when it comes to our forward/defense group.

 

Yes, we are missing a superstar talent (but so are most other teams).

 

But calling all our forwards fourth-liners is a gross exaggeration. Go look at the scoring stats on nhl.com and see how many of them are in the top 62 (in their positions) in the NHL.

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22 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

 

Yes, we are missing a superstar talent (but so are most other teams).

 

But calling all our forwards fourth-liners is a gross exaggeration. Go look at the scoring stats on nhl.com and see how many of them are in the top 62 (in their positions) in the NHL.

Not calling all of them 4th liners. I am just saying the depth and talent level drops off big time after our top guys. 
you ever notice if our top guys are in a slump the team as a whole goes in a slump? It’s the same with injuries, when our top guys are hurt the team goes into a slump. It’s because lack of talent and depth  In the organization. Talent, balance and depth you can make a point its all the same but its what we lack.

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16 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

I am just saying the depth and talent level drops off big time after our top guys.

Actually you have it backwards, lots of mid-six forwards but lack top guys. Tatar 7th in LW scoring would be their 1 top forward, rest are middling offensive players with highest paid at $5.5m.

 

(fingers crossed, Suzuki, Drouin and Domi become consistent scorers, just not there yet)

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15 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said:

Not calling all of them 4th liners. I am just saying the depth and talent level drops off big time after our top guys. 
you ever notice if our top guys are in a slump the team as a whole goes in a slump? It’s the same with injuries, when our top guys are hurt the team goes into a slump. It’s because lack of talent and depth  In the organization. Talent, balance and depth you can make a point its all the same but its what we lack.

 

A superstar is the guy who drags the team on his back.when others slump or have injuries.

 

Putting in a top line superstar also moves everyone below him down a rung... adding to the depth.

 

Adding Aho for example, danault becomes the 2c and suzuki the 3c.  Again thats what the PPG superstar forward can do

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5 minutes ago, DON said:

Actually you have it backwards, lots of mid-six forwards but lack top guys. Tatar 7th in LW scoring would be their 1 top forward, rest are middling offensive players with highest paid at $5.5m.

I would agree with that our forward group guys like Danault, Gallagher, Tatar, Drouin, Domi, are all middle of the league forwards.  

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4 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

It's about depth if you got a bunch of 4th line nhlers playing top line minutes, you are what you pay for. We don't have a good balance when it comes to our forward/defense group.

 

Teams that have drafted elite superstars never win until they build a team around them and add the depth. The so called roll players.

 

Washington had Ovechkin and Backstrom for the longest time and couldn't win tell they started adding depth around them in Kuznetsov, Wilson, Eller, Carlson and T.J. Then they found the right coach to bring them all together, and they finally won.

 

We have just have never had team depth. Which is why when healthy we are good sometimes great, when going through injuries we're a lottery team.

Our issue is that all MB and timmins have assembled and drafted and depth players.  There are no superstars. Price doesn’t count as a goalie, because there are only so many games you can win 1-0 or 2-1.

 No home run trades to bring a superstar (the way SJS brought in Thornton and Burns), no home run later round draft picks with superstar potential like Kucherov, Pasternak, Aho, Point, stone, Kuznetsov.

 

we have lots of depth, just no superstar forward or even dman that can take over a game (Weber is good, but he can’t take over a game like Karlsson, burns or doughty, used to).

 

tatar I think is our leading forward, but he is a complementary piece (just like pactioretty who he replaced). He is not going to take over a game, like even Mark Stone can.  When mark stone is not scoring he is still a force.  He is not a Crosby or ovechkin, but can still take over a game.  Habs have no one like that and haven’t since an injury prone Koivu.

 

You  have to  to go back to the Muller as early the last hab that had a sustained run of taking over a game (I see damphouse as even a complementary piece) and Kovolev had one big year.  Koivu could do it at times and. May have been that elite top ten player had he not blown out his knee at the start of his career.

 

since than it’s been zippo.  No draft picks, no trades for high impact elite players that were in their prime and could be a force for 4 or 5 years.

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9 hours ago, JoeLassister said:

Anyway,  my point is  that  in the NFL,  draft is a quick way to fill rosters needs and teams use it a lot.

 

In the NHL, draft is not a quick way to fill needs unless you're picking 1st OA in a draft year that includes a Crosby/McDavid/Matthews.

Otherwise, it's a 2-3 years plan and things will change within 2-3 years.
 

I agree on the nfl point. With the money at stake in today's nhl, I wish the draft age was 20 so you could get a better idea of development. 

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That is expected given how late

they were drafting and how many times they didn’t have 2nd round picks.

The last two drafts are a good step forward. This year should be positive too

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1 minute ago, BCHabnut said:

I agree on the nfl point. With the money at stake in today's nhl, I wish the draft age was 20 so you could get a better idea of development. 

Habnut, that's crazy talk!

You know how hard it would be to twist the owners arm to just hold them back until a kid is simply 18, so no draft till 20 is like ludicrous speed in SpaceBalls.:crazy:

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6 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

It's about depth if you got a bunch of 4th line nhlers playing top line minutes, you are what you pay for. We don't have a good balance when it comes to our forward/defense group.

 

Teams that have drafted elite superstars never win until they build a team around them and add the depth. The so called roll players.

 

Washington had Ovechkin and Backstrom for the longest time and couldn't win tell they started adding depth around them in Kuznetsov, Wilson, Eller, Carlson and T.J. Then they found the right coach to bring them all together, and they finally won.

 

We have just have never had team depth. Which is why when healthy we are good sometimes great, when going through injuries we're a lottery team.

kuznetsov is one of the best C in hockey and him and backstrom form one of the best C duos in all of hockey. Carlson is about to win the Norris. Wilson is one of the best power forwards (who can fight on top of that in the league). Thats some pretty good depth you speaking of... the so called roll players!

 

what are the Habs missing exactly? A freaking Superstar... actually a couple superstars! its why I wanted only Panarin or Karlsson in free agency. We don't need anymore depth. Although Chairot was a very pleasant surprise!

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23 minutes ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

kuznetsov is one of the best C in hockey and him and backstrom form one of the best C duos in all of hockey. Carlson is about to win the Norris. Wilson is one of the best power forwards (who can fight on top of that in the league). Thats some pretty good depth you speaking of... the so called roll players!

 

what are the Habs missing exactly? A freaking Superstar... actually a couple superstars! its why I wanted only Panarin or Karlsson in free agency. We don't need anymore depth. Although Chairot was a very pleasant surprise!

For all the complaining in how we haven’t had a chance to draft superstars because of our draft position. (Outside of price, Galchenyuk and Kk), Kuznetsov and Carlson were late first rounders.  Big difference has been on the quality of our scouting and development.  Outside of the 2007 draft where Timmons has McDonough (who was stupidly traded away), pactioretty and subban, we have not timmins while drafting a lot of depth players, really hasn’t been able to find too many impact players (Gallagher is the only other one).  Given the number of years on the job, it’s a pretty pathetic track record.

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1 hour ago, DON said:

Habnut, that's crazy talk!

You know how hard it would be to twist the owners arm to just hold them back until a kid is simply 18, so no draft till 20 is like ludicrous speed in SpaceBalls.:crazy:

 

There are some teams that have supported 19 as a draft age in recent years.  I think one group has proposed that you can draft an 18-year-old in the first round and then 19 after that.  Usually, these come up in conjunction with modifying the CHL-NHL agreement which is where these ideas tend to die.

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Youd have one of the worst drafts ever in the year of the switch.

 

And its incredibly unfair to teams who traded for future draft picks.  Think of teams who just acquired 2021 picks... if the move is made now thats unfair to them.

 

Also players may sue for not being allowed to work as 18 year old adults under anti-trust law.

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Youd have one of the worst drafts ever in the year of the switch.

 

And its incredibly unfair to teams who traded for future draft picks.  Think of teams who just acquired 2021 picks... if the move is made now thats unfair to them.

 

Also players may sue for not being allowed to work as 18 year old adults under anti-trust law.

 

It'd have to be something that's announced a few years in advance to be fair to teams who have traded picks previously.

 

As for anti-trust law, I'm no legal expert (I'll defer to you here) but wouldn't the NHL be able to cite the NBA rule (19 years old) as a valid precedent-setter?  Or the NFL (three years past high school which is well past 18)?

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35 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

It'd have to be something that's announced a few years in advance to be fair to teams who have traded picks previously.

 

As for anti-trust law, I'm no legal expert (I'll defer to you here) but wouldn't the NHL be able to cite the NBA rule (19 years old) as a valid precedent-setter?  Or the NFL (three years past high school which is well past 18)?

 

May work in american courts.

 

7 teams in this league are in canada.  A huge portion of players are canadian and playing junior in canada.  Canadian courts have no reason to follow precedent set in the US when Maurice Clarett sued the NFL.

 

It would be a brand new case and could go either way

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