Into the Abyss: the Carey Price debate

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

https://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/what-the-puck-canadiens-carey-price-back-to-his-inconsistent-ways

 

‘What if the Achilles heel is Price. That was Dom Luszczyszyn’s concern in his season preview of the Canadiens in The Athletic. Wrote Luszczyszyn: “Over the last three years he’s allowed 42 more goals than expected, a mark that’s ahead of only five other goalies — three of which are no longer in the NHL and the other two being from Minnesota, the land of no goaltending.”’

 

Now, I tend to defend Price. He has had a great career and been a great goalie. Still, the aforementioned stat surprised me and seems to be genuinely disturbing. And of course, this is what, the third season in a row that he starts quite poorly, at least statistically.

 

Luszcyszyn’s stat is suggestive that he began a decline three years ago (age 30), and that perhaps the case for Price is now more that he has a capacity to elevate his game, as we saw in the play-in last year, and be dominant for stretches, rather than that he is an elite goalie game-in and game-out. 

 

I see this debate, incidentally, as different from whether Allen is “out true #1 G.” Allen has shown over his career that he is an excellent #1A but not a legit stud starter. 

 

Anyway: discuss.

 

 

 

[Prime Minister Koivu]

This might turn into Price vs Halak if Price continues to be mediocre. 
 

I don’t know what is wrong with Price but his stats are poor. His poor play has always been associated with crap Dmen and weak team. 
 

What is his excuse now?

 

You all know my opinion, trade or expose him if possible- he is not worth his contract and it’s not close. 

[sbhatt]

I think that Carey Price should be treated the same as any other player: earn your icetime.  If you are underperforming, your tenure/salary/past accomplishments should mean nothing...you should sit in favor of a player who is getting the job done better than you are.  Allen should have every opportunity to make the lion's share of the starts if Carey can't outplay him.  On the flipside of that, Carey should have every opportunity to win back the lion's share of the starts should he find his A-game and outperform Allen.  I believe in meritocracy, whethere it be in business, academics, or sports.

[Commandant]

Price has started slow the last few seasons.  He'll be the goalie we count on when the playoffs come.  Until then a 60/40 or 55/45 split of starts is fine.

[GHT120]

18 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

... I see this debate, incidentally, as different from whether Allen is “out true #1 G.” Allen has shown over his career that he is an excellent #1A but not a legit stud starter. 

 

Anyway: discuss.

 

In the 3 seasons before this Allen had two poor seasons when he played 59 and 46 games but was outstanding last season when he played 24/71 games ... so that suggests you don't want more than a crease-sharing situation until Price gets his game together and forces Julien to give him more games ... still not more than 3 in 4, ideally 2 in 3 IMO ... at least until mid/late April ... IMO

[Prime Minister Koivu]

7 minutes ago, sbhatt said:

I think that Carey Price should be treated the same as any other player: earn your icetime.  If you are underperforming, your tenure/salary/past accomplishments should mean nothing...you should sit in favor of a player who is getting the job done better than you are.  Allen should have every opportunity to make the lion's share of the starts if Carey can't outplay him.  On the flipside of that, Carey should have every opportunity to win back the lion's share of the starts should he find his A-game and outperform Allen.  I believe in meritocracy, whethere it be in business, academics, or sports.

Im all for this because it will light a fire under price’s ass or push him out if he simply can’t play anymore. 
 

It will never happen 

[GHT120]

1 minute ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Im all for this because it will light a fire under price’s ass or push him out if he simply can’t play anymore. 
It will never happen 

 

*** ONLY *** way that happens is if Carey decides he wants out and asks to be exposed in the expansion draft ... or to be traded to Seattle ... his in-laws live just SW of Seattle and he is a west coast guy, so could be a good "face off the franchise" ... whether Seattle would accept his salary cap hit would depend on and how teams work their protected lists how the Krakens are planning to build their team ... doubt as many established NHL top9/top6 players exposed as last time, or as many good assets traded to manipulate the draft ... so they might decide to go younger and as a result have cap space available. ... 

[Neech]

I've been kicking this idea around in my head for the last few years.  IMO, he's always been overrated by Habs fans and around the league because of his Team Canada pedigree.  No way he sniffs an MVP if he's European and plays in the sunbelt.  He had a few years of dominance, roughly from 2014-16, but not the sustained elite performance of a Lundqvist, let alone Brodeur or Roy.  His cap hit is astronomical and mostly due to name recognition - again, he would be criticized much more for not living up to it if he weren't a national hero. 

 

The expansion draft presents a unique opportunity to unload this bad contract. I honestly don't think any other team would want or have the cap space for a 10.5M goalie, even if he was still putting up top-5 numbers.  Who knows whether the Kraken would even want him, but the opportunity to have a face of the franchise who is local(ish) might be enticing.  But this might be our only chance, and if we don't take it it would hamper our ability to keep our young stars and depth.  If Price is basically middle of the pack at this point, what is going to contribute more to winning going forward?

 

Now this is all probably a moot point because I doubt that Bergy would get rid of Price, and if Carey plays poorly enough to make him want to, there wouldn't be any takers.  But I do think that this contract will start to have serious consequences on our roster when Suzuki's bill comes in.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

I agree that Price should certainly clearly be considered the team’s starting goalie. 
 

Outside of that, Price hasn’t been the goalie  we’ve come to expect on a consistent basis for years. Prior to getting Niemi, so awhile ago, I made a thread on here that the Habs need a better backup goalie. At that point in time, Price seemingly controlled his fate because there was no one behind him on the depth chart who could keep him looking over his shoulder should he continue to falter.

 

With all that being said, despite erratic play and not living up to some exceedingly high expectations, I am entirely grateful that we have Price. Even though we are discussing him now, I never go into a game fearful that he could perform sub-par. Of course he does, but it’s rarely a predominant fear. I much prefer him as our goaltender than a Sheshterkin, or Saros, as examples. They are great goalies and far from the worst starters (Jones?) however they do not instil a certain level of confidence in me that a Price, Rask, Vasilevskiy, Bishop, dare I say Fleury (I know CC isn’t a fan) instil in me.

 

I’m willing to ride or die with Price and fear the day we no longer have him. If we happen to have a goalie remotely the caliber of Price after his retirement, I will once again be happy. 

[GHT120]

37 minutes ago, Neech said:

I've been kicking this idea around in my head for the last few years.  IMO, he's always been overrated by Habs fans and around the league because of his Team Canada pedigree.  No way he sniffs an MVP if he's European and plays in the sunbelt.  He had a few years of dominance, roughly from 2014-16, but not the sustained elite performance of a Lundqvist, let alone Brodeur or Roy.  His cap hit is astronomical and mostly due to name recognition - again, he would be criticized much more for not living up to it if he weren't a national hero. 

 

The expansion draft presents a unique opportunity to unload this bad contract. I honestly don't think any other team would want or have the cap space for a 10.5M goalie, even if he was still putting up top-5 numbers.  Who knows whether the Kraken would even want him, but the opportunity to have a face of the franchise who is local(ish) might be enticing.  But this might be our only chance, and if we don't take it it would hamper our ability to keep our young stars and depth.  If Price is basically middle of the pack at this point, what is going to contribute more to winning going forward?

 

Now this is all probably a moot point because I doubt that Bergy would get rid of Price, and if Carey plays poorly enough to make him want to, there wouldn't be any takers.  But I do think that this contract will start to have serious consequences on our roster when Suzuki's bill comes in.

There is also Price's NMC to consider ... he isn't going anywhere unless he wants to go ... only time will tell

[hab29RETIRED]

3 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

https://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/what-the-puck-canadiens-carey-price-back-to-his-inconsistent-ways

 

‘What if the Achilles heel is Price. That was Dom Luszczyszyn’s concern in his season preview of the Canadiens in The Athletic. Wrote Luszczyszyn: “Over the last three years he’s allowed 42 more goals than expected, a mark that’s ahead of only five other goalies — three of which are no longer in the NHL and the other two being from Minnesota, the land of no goaltending.”’

 

Now, I tend to defend Price. He has had a great career and been a great goalie. Still, the aforementioned stat surprised me and seems to be genuinely disturbing. And of course, this is what, the third season in a row that he starts quite poorly, at least statistically.

 

Luszcyszyn’s stat is suggestive that he began a decline three years ago (age 30), and that perhaps the case for Price is now more that he has a capacity to elevate his game, as we saw in the play-in last year, and be dominant for stretches, rather than that he is an elite goalie game-in and game-out. 

 

I see this debate, incidentally, as different from whether Allen is “out true #1 G.” Allen has shown over his career that he is an excellent #1A but not a legit stud starter. 

 

Anyway: discuss.

 

 

 

I see Allen as a number two - no matter who is in front of him.  In a normal season (ie not like the last two Covid shortened seasons). He may play 35-40 games, but he can’t be the go to guy.  Never had been able to carry the load when he is supposed to be the GUY.

 
So, IMO, Allen shouldn’t even be part of the discussion.

 

As far as Price goes, I hated the contract the day it was signed. It’s just too much money to pay a goalie. Any goalie.  It’s probably just me, but id reserve $10m+ Contracts to truly elite Centres and Dmen.  Yes Price wona Hart. He made us a hell of a lot better than we would have been without him and I don’t think we can make the playoffs without him. Having said that he didn’t make us a legitimate contender.  I still think in today’s NHL where you are under a cap you need to have the truly elite centre and dman to be a true contender and they should be your highest paid players - kopitar/doughty, Crosby/Malkin/letang (loose definition of elite), Toews/Keith, Bergeron/Chara.

 

The Pens and hawks showed that you can win with a very good goalie - does not have to best in the league. It’s been a while since one of the top 3 goalies in the league won a cup. Crawford, Murrey, Fleury, Quick were all very good goalies.  In the last 10 years I think the only Vezina trophy winners that won a cup are Vasilevsikiy, Holtby and Thomas and I think Thomas is the only one to win a cup when he won the Vezina. Neither were even close to being the highest paid player on the team. I think before that Brodeur the last perennial cup and Vezina winning goalie. He also always had elite dmen and centres.

 

unfortunately for Price, the team in front of him sucked. The best dman he had was Markov - who also lost a number of years to injury. Subban was elite, but th rest of the team sucked and we lacked the centre.  When Weber replaced him, we had the same issue, no centres.

 

I think we finally are strong at centre and may actually have a future elite centre in Suzuki.
 

if like to see what Price can do in the playoffs with the lineup we have. I REALLY like our offense.

 

I’d like to see if Price can help us do major damage in the playoffs. He is usually a slow starter. With a lower workload and shorter season. He should be ready in the playoffs.

Defensively, Price could still use help.  I still don’t like our top 4 on D - Petry has been a revelation this year and is clearly our best dman and Weber has been a rock.  But we still don’t have a truly top pairing.  Edmondson, Chariot, Kulak are not truly what you want on the top pairing, but our D is better than it has been since the early 90’s.

 

Let’s see what Price does by the end of this year. His contract is what it is. I don’t think there is a point discussing replacing him THIS year and I don’t think Allen is a viable replacement.  This season’s conference setup gives us the beat chance we’ll probably have to get into the final 4. If Price isn’t able to get It done this year, than I would look at seeing if we can move him in the off-season. Having said that, I wouldn’t consider exposing him to Seattle if he agreed - he is guaranteed to get picked up by then. But I would approach him to waive his NMC. I think Price also knows this lineup and conference setup is one of the best chances to get into the final 4, so hopefully he’ll be zoned in by the playoffs.

 

[hab29RETIRED]

3 hours ago, sbhatt said:

I think that Carey Price should be treated the same as any other player: earn your icetime.  If you are underperforming, your tenure/salary/past accomplishments should mean nothing...you should sit in favor of a player who is getting the job done better than you are.  Allen should have every opportunity to make the lion's share of the starts if Carey can't outplay him.  On the flipside of that, Carey should have every opportunity to win back the lion's share of the starts should he find his A-game and outperform Allen.  I believe in meritocracy, whethere it be in business, academics, or sports.

I don’t want Allen to be seen as the #1 guy and frankly, given his history, I can’t see him wanting that anymore. He is not the answer. He gives us a better option to Price since Halak, but we aren’t winning with Allen.

[hab29RETIRED]

3 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 

*** ONLY *** way that happens is if Carey decides he wants out and asks to be exposed in the expansion draft ... or to be traded to Seattle ... his in-laws live just SW of Seattle and he is a west coast guy, so could be a good "face off the franchise" ... whether Seattle would accept his salary cap hit would depend on and how teams work their protected lists how the Krakens are planning to build their team ... doubt as many established NHL top9/top6 players exposed as last time, or as many good assets traded to manipulate the draft ... so they might decide to go younger and as a result have cap space available. ... 

Price is definitely in the driver seat. I think he’ll be good by the playoffs - like I said earlier - I think he’s got to know this years conference setup is the best chance he’s got to get to the final 4 (last time we were there we exceeded expectations. This year we have the lineup).
 

having said that, if things don’t go well and price wants out and wants to go to Seattle, I still wouldn’t want to expose him. We NEED to get value for him and cap space in its own is not enough. If it ever comes to that, I think, you make a side deal to have Seattle draft a goalie and players that can help us and than move him. But I wouldn’t give him up for nothing.  He’s not done yet. Even if he isn’t a Hart or Vezina candidate, he still a very good goalie. He’s just not a $10M+ player. But than like I said earlier, I don’t consider any goalie to be worth that.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

37 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Price is definitely in the driver seat. I think he’ll be good by the playoffs - like I said earlier - I think he’s got to know this years conference setup is the best chance he’s got to get to the final 4 (last time we were there we exceeded expectations. This year we have the lineup).
 

having said that, if things don’t go well and price wants out and wants to go to Seattle, I still wouldn’t want to expose him. We NEED to get value for him and cap space in its own is not enough. If it ever comes to that, I think, you make a side deal to have Seattle draft a goalie and players that can help us and than move him. But I wouldn’t give him up for nothing.  He’s not done yet. Even if he isn’t a Hart or Vezina candidate, he still a very good goalie. He’s just not a $10M+ player. But than like I said earlier, I don’t consider any goalie to be worth that.

 

Good analysis. You certainly are correct about Allen, and these Habs fans that talk about him as “our real #1” or say he has now made Price expendable are simply ignoring what his career patterns prove - he’s not a #1 G, but he is very good as the #1A or, as you suggest, #2 guy.

 

I also tend to agree with the gist of your assessment of goaltending and cap management in general. I don’t like the term (at all) on Jakob Markstrom’s contract, but he’s providing elite netminding that steals games for $6 mil. That’s more like it. At the same time, Price scored that contract when he was at his peak and when the Habs simply had no choice but to sign him. Any alternative would have been fanciful. So I don’t really fault MB for that contract. (And frankly, when you consider how much cap space the Habs have sat on in the years before this one, his contract certainly has not hurt us, so far).

[Sir_Boagalott]

I'm not shocked to see this discussion but I'm surprised Chicoutimi started it.

 

Honestely, I have always wondered if the Habs made the best choice with Price over Halak.  Unfortunately, we will never know what could have been because the Habs never entertained or listened to any offers.  I always felt that the Habs saying no way not interested was a bad decision. 

 

It is unarguable that Price is better than Halak.  However, I have always felt that the Habs should have found out what kind of crazy over payment a team would have given up to get Price? ex:  Ducks - Getzlaff + Perry (or Bobby Ryan)?; Kings - Kopitar + ?; etc. 

 

The Habs could have received major upgrades at F and/or D for a slight downgrade in Goal.  That scenario likely would have seen better team results.  Price has always had a ton of hype so what the Habs could have got for Price would have been crazy.   

 

Price has always let in a bunch of weak goals that most other starters would have stopped.  In Prices 1st 2-3 season most of the weak goals were caused by a mistake  ex:  a turnover, intercepted pass, etc.  Price would be exalted and there was always a scapegoat to blame for him letting in those bad goals.  In the last few years his baby is to blame. 

 

Most people always seemed to say Price was young and that he'd grow out of it.  When Wamsley used to post here he said that all the time.  The truth is that time has proved Wamsley was dead wrong on that.  My argument has always been that growing out of that is typically how goalies get drafted and make it into the NHL.   

 

Also, I have to mention Subban who made comments that he loved the Habs and wanted to spend his entire career with them.  The moment I started disliking Subban was when he signed that contract.  PK wanted 8.5mil, was offered 7.85 mil, held out for arbitration, then agreed to 9.25mil. 

 

Sadly, I have to consider Price to be similar.  i.e. a player that signs for the maximum amount possible for a team they claim to love.  I tend to find that to be greedy, and if he never wins the Cup his huge contract will be the primary reason why. 

 

Danault seems to be in that same category too.  Think of Toffoli and Anderson who had never played for the Habs, they had no friends on the team, etc.  Both of them gave the Habs discounts and they never said they wanted to play their entire careers with the Habs. 

 

I'm definitely tentatively worried about the playoffs, and Price getting to start because he's the #1 goalie.  Luckily, the Habs basically have their key players locked up for numerous years.  Therefore, if they dont win this year they have a chance in the next several years.  Thats only if they stop making the same mistake of going with Price because he's the starter. 

 

The Habs should play them as a tandem and play whoever gives them the best chance to win. 

 

 

[hab29RETIRED]

50 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Good analysis. You certainly are correct about Allen, and these Habs fans that talk about him as “our real #1” or say he has now made Price expendable are simply ignoring what his career patterns prove - he’s not a #1 G, but he is very good as the #1A or, as you suggest, #2 guy.

 

I also tend to agree with the gist of your assessment of goaltending and cap management in general. I don’t like the term (at all) on Jakob Markstrom’s contract, but he’s providing elite netminding that steals games for $6 mil. That’s more like it. At the same time, Price scored that contract when he was at his peak and when the Habs simply had no choice but to sign him. Any alternative would have been fanciful. So I don’t really fault MB for that contract. (And frankly, when you consider how much cap space the Habs have sat on in the years before this one, his contract certainly has not hurt us, so far).

Oh,  agree that Price’s contract didn’t hurt us in the past. If anything we had room

even after over-paying fir grunts.  I just don’t think you can have a real contender with a just a stud goalie. You need the elite centre. We have a two year window before Suzuki gets paid and need Price to perform at a high level within that window. After that, Suzuki will need to get paid big money and KK and Romanov MAY also require significant bumps.  That’s why don’t know how we keep Danault after this year. It’s not just being able to affording him, it’s also making sure that if Suzuki continues the way he is, he can be paid more than Danault and probably more than Gallagher. Aho’s contract may be the comparable for Suzuki.

 

as far as the whole Allen “controversy” fans wanted Lauraque to replace Dryden in 1978.

[hab29RETIRED]

17 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

I'm not shocked to see this discussion but I'm surprised Chicoutimi started it.

 

Honestely, I have always wondered if the Habs made the best choice with Price over Halak.  Unfortunately, we will never know what could have been because the Habs never entertained or listened to any offers.  I always felt that the Habs saying no way not interested was a bad decision. 

 

It is unarguable that Price is better than Halak.  However, I have always felt that the Habs should have found out what kind of crazy over payment a team would have given up to get Price? ex:  Ducks - Getzlaff + Perry (or Bobby Ryan)?; Kings - Kopitar + ?; etc. 

 

The Habs could have received major upgrades at F and/or D for a slight downgrade in Goal.  That scenario likely would have seen better team results.  Price has always had a ton of hype so what the Habs could have got for Price would have been crazy.   

 

Price has always let in a bunch of weak goals that most other starters would have stopped.  In Prices 1st 2-3 season most of the weak goals were caused by a mistake  ex:  a turnover, intercepted pass, etc.  Price would be exalted and there was always a scapegoat to blame for him letting in those bad goals.  In the last few years his baby is to blame. 

 

Most people always seemed to say Price was young and that he'd grow out of it.  When Wamsley used to post here he said that all the time.  The truth is that time has proved Wamsley was dead wrong on that.  My argument has always been that growing out of that is typically how goalies get drafted and make it into the NHL.   

 

Also, I have to mention Subban who made comments that he loved the Habs and wanted to spend his entire career with them.  The moment I started disliking Subban was when he signed that contract.  PK wanted 8.5mil, was offered 7.85 mil, held out for arbitration, then agreed to 9.25mil. 

 

Sadly, I have to consider Price to be similar.  i.e. a player that signs for the maximum amount possible for a team they claim to love.  I tend to find that to be greedy, and if he never wins the Cup his huge contract will be the primary reason why. 

 

Danault seems to be in that same category too.  Think of Toffoli and Anderson who had never played for the Habs, they had no friends on the team, etc.  Both of them gave the Habs discounts and they never said they wanted to play their entire careers with the Habs. 

 

I'm definitely tentatively worried about the playoffs, and Price getting to start because he's the #1 goalie.  Luckily, the Habs basically have their key players locked up for numerous years.  Therefore, if they dont win this year they have a chance in the next several years.  Thats only if they stop making the same mistake of going with Price because he's the starter. 

 

The Habs should play them as a tandem and play whoever gives them the best chance to win. 

 

 

Price actually was signed to a reasonable contract on his second deal and was worth every penny. We ended up overpaying for Subban because unlike almost all other GM’s at the time, MB played hardball and than got burnt when Subban won the Norris. The only other team that played hardball was the Avs with O’Reilly and that also ended badly.

 

Price, Maxpac, and Gallagher all were signed to longer term 2nd contracts that benefited the habs. I think Gallagher would have asked a lot more for his extension if it wasn’t for the depressed cap from Covid.

[tomh009]

1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

as far as the whole Allen “controversy” fans wanted Lauraque to replace Dryden in 1978.

I do recall that now. Ugh. Had managed to wipe that memory ... ☹️

 

As for Halak, I think he might be pretty close to what Allen is: an excellent 1B guy. I don't think I would want to count on either one for 55-60 games (in a normal season).

[Sir_Boagalott]

5 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Price actually was signed to a reasonable contract on his second deal and was worth every penny. We ended up overpaying for Subban because unlike almost all other GM’s at the time, MB played hardball and than got burnt when Subban won the Norris. The only other team that played hardball was the Avs with O’Reilly and that also ended badly.

 

Price, Maxpac, and Gallagher all were signed to longer term 2nd contracts that benefited the habs. I think Gallagher would have asked a lot more for his extension if it wasn’t for the depressed cap from Covid.

 

 

I dont have an issue with long contracts and like the idea of locking in specific players  when the player is young and/or they dont know their worth yet.  ex:  Armia - I'd sign him for 3mil x 5 yrs; because he is worth that now but could turn into a 50-60pt guy worth 5-6 mil/yr.   

 

Also, I would have signed the Kostitsyns/Gab line for 5+ yrs @ 3.25mil/yr.  They could have  got 150-180pts for under 10mil over that time.  Gainey's biggest mistake was his handling of contracts and failure to lock that line up.  He refused to do contracts during the season, or if there was time left on a contract, and no 5+ yrs.  MB definitely handles contracts better.   

 

However, I' not a fan of the stupid long lifetime contracts because they dont work out.  Price has one, as does Weber - its a decent aav but too long.   If the Habs can ditch those contracts before they burn them it would be wise to consider it.  It seems illogical that they are considered the 2 pillars of the team.  Both of their contracts as guaranteed to work out badly.

 

You're right that Gally probably could have gotten more, but I think Gally gave them a bit of a discount.  He definitely did on his last contract.  When he signed this contract the Habs had Anderson and Toffoli so he probably considered that.  Gally seems to be a team player in that sense. 

 

It's best for a team to have everybody buy into that concept.  ex:  if 20 players accept 500K less than they are worth thats 10 mil, or 2 5mil/yr players.  Now consider if the Habs over paid everybody by 500K, thats 10 mil, so scratch Anderson and Toffoli off the team. 

[Prime Minister Koivu]

What is more valuable to Habs moving forward 

 

10.5 million in cap space 

 

or

 

The play of Price - inconsistent, sometimes great, sometimes poor, usually average 

 

Price is not much better than Allen and Primeau sure looks like he is ready to play 50% of the games. 
 

 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

12 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

 

I dont have an issue with long contracts and like the idea of locking in specific players  when the player is young and/or they dont know their worth yet.  ex:  Armia - I'd sign him for 3mil x 5 yrs; because he is worth that now but could turn into a 50-60pt guy worth 5-6 mil/yr.   

 

Also, I would have signed the Kostitsyns/Gab line for 5+ yrs @ 3.25mil/yr.  They could have  got 150-180pts for under 10mil over that time.  Gainey's biggest mistake was his handling of contracts and failure to lock that line up.  He refused to do contracts during the season, or if there was time left on a contract, and no 5+ yrs.  MB definitely handles contracts better.   

 

However, I' not a fan of the stupid long lifetime contracts because they dont work out.  Price has one, as does Weber - its a decent aav but too long.   If the Habs can ditch those contracts before they burn them it would be wise to consider it.  It seems illogical that they are considered the 2 pillars of the team.  Both of their contracts as guaranteed to work out badly.

 

You're right that Gally probably could have gotten more, but I think Gally gave them a bit of a discount.  He definitely did on his last contract.  When he signed this contract the Habs had Anderson and Toffoli so he probably considered that.  Gally seems to be a team player in that sense. 

 

It's best for a team to have everybody buy into that concept.  ex:  if 20 players accept 500K less than they are worth thats 10 mil, or 2 5mil/yr players.  Now consider if the Habs over paid everybody by 500K, thats 10 mil, so scratch Anderson and Toffoli off the team. 

 

It’s true that locking guys in early is the right play - if they’re the right guys. Your point about signing Kostitsyn for 5 years or whatever shows the downside, though. The guy’s entire NHL career lasted about 6 years. So did Sergei’s. It’d be a shame to be on the hook for bums like that. 

 

Gainey’s asset management wasn’t great, but his whole outlook leading into 2009 seems to have been that he was not convinced about many of the young players he’d developed. That’s presumably why he had them all on expiring contracts. And considering the fates of the Kostitsyns, Komisarek, Higgins, etc., it’s probably not a bad thing that he let them all walk rather than having signed them through to 2014 or whatever. He was right; they were not the real deal at all, unfortunately.

 

Assuming this year’s Habs continue to roll, they will suddenly find themselves in a very different position than they’ve ever been in during the salary cap era: a team widely perceived as a contender, and therefore a team that UFAs and RFAs may be willing to take cap-friendly deals in order to be part of. I mean, guys like Gally and Markov have always been clear that they want to be Habs and would stay here as long as the offer was reasonable. But we’re likely to see an uptick in that phenomenon as long as the team goes around looking top-notch.

 

2 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

What is more valuable to Habs moving forward 

 

10.5 million in cap space 

 

or

 

The play of Price - inconsistent, sometimes great, sometimes poor, usually average 

 

Price is not much better than Allen and Primeau sure looks like he is ready to play 50% of the games. 
 

 

 

Like I said in the other thread, it’s not actually 10.5, because Allen will want a raise in two years if he is suddenly going to be The Man, and because no team with serious aspirations to win a Cup is going to go with a combination of Allen/untested rookie. So, say $4 mil for Allen and 3 mil for a Holtby-type. That puts you closer to 6.5 in cap space - enough for one impact player in a normal cap year.

[GHT120]

15 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Price is definitely in the driver seat. I think he’ll be good by the playoffs - like I said earlier - I think he’s got to know this years conference setup is the best chance he’s got to get to the final 4 (last time we were there we exceeded expectations. This year we have the lineup).
 

having said that, if things don’t go well and price wants out and wants to go to Seattle, I still wouldn’t want to expose him. We NEED to get value for him and cap space in its own is not enough. If it ever comes to that, I think, you make a side deal to have Seattle draft a goalie and players that can help us and than move him. But I wouldn’t give him up for nothing.  He’s not done yet. Even if he isn’t a Hart or Vezina candidate, he still a very good goalie. He’s just not a $10M+ player. But than like I said earlier, I don’t consider any goalie to be worth that.

Think you are right that ***if*** Price moves to Seattle it will be in a trade ... in part because I think the Habs will have to retain say $1.5-2 in cap space in order to get a better return ... 165-ish days and we will know ... likely that this was all fun speculation

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

10 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

Think you are right that ***if*** Price moves to Seattle it will be in a trade ... in part because I think the Habs will have to retain say $1.5-2 in cap space in order to get a better return ... 165-ish days and we will know ... likely that this was all fun speculation

 

Price is retiring a Hab IMHO. The only way that doesn’t happen is if the team blows and he asks to go to a contender to play out his final year or two.

 

His number will be retired, by the way.

[GHT120]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

... Like I said in the other thread, it’s not actually 10.5, because Allen will want a raise in two years if he is suddenly going to be The Man, and because no team with serious aspirations to win a Cup is going to go with a combination of Allen/untested rookie. So, say $4 mil for Allen and 3 mil for a Holtby-type. That puts you closer to 6.5 in cap space - enough for one impact player in a normal cap year.

 

Very true ... but Allen really isn't a factor ... any "cap space" gained next summer, by whatever means, is really only for the 2021/22 season ... when Allen comes due after 22/23 (assuming, for the purposes of this discussion he is still with the Habs and Price is gone) the Habs will have almost $47 million tied up in 9 players, less whatever is spent this summer and next on contracts that run at least through 23/24 ... so, if Price asks/agrees to be exposed and Seattle takes him in the expansion, it is an additional $10.5 million in cap space for next season ... meaning about $26M in cap space to address re-signing KK, extend Suzuki and dealing with UFAs (Tartar, Danault, Armia and Perry) and RFAs (Lehkonen, Mete), or their replacements 

[GHT120]

6 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Price is retiring a Hab IMHO. The only way that doesn’t happen is if the team blows and he asks to go to a contender to play out his final year or two.

 

His number will be retired, by the way.

 

Would you have the numbers to Tuesday's Lotto Max?