Markov, it's done!

[JoeLassister]

I really don't think Markov would have gotten more then $5M on the open market. There are very few defensemen in this league who are getting close to $6 or over and almost all of them were given those big contracts by their own team, not the open market. Yes, Chara got a lot on the open market, and the consensus seems to be that it was not worth it. While I am sure Markov would have been sought after by other teams, I think he would have been looking at a bunch of offers in the $5M range and selecting the team he felt most comfortable with.

In my view, we paid a premium to convince him to stay in Montreal and not go to a team with better prospects.

lol i think Markov could get nearly 6,5 with some teams : Snow and Wang gave a 15 yrs contract to a goaler, don't you think they can't go on a tilt again with a VERY promising young Dman ???

[CoRvInA]

Souray once in a interviews said 5 Mil per year was too much for him. I'm content with Markov's deal, nevertheless that leaves plenty of room for Souray to eat his words and ask for at least 5 mil per year. But "shite" were going to be spending at least 11 mil per year on 2 players that leaves less wiggle room for us to complete the roster on the D line and up front. So.... lets hope the cap hits 49 or more. IMO, I think Souray will be offered tops 5.5 for 3 or 2 years from the Habs if the cap hits 49 MIl. I'm hoping he signs for under 5 (as quoted from his comment) 4.75 per year for 3 years would make my day! if not we got an extra million or two to pay off the russian mob to let go of Yemlin and co.

Edited May 29, 2007 by CoRvInA

[alexstream]

If we have the choice between

1. Contract to Souray but no UFA

2. No Contract to sorry, with a UFA...

I'd say we offer whatever it takes to get Smyth.

I like Souray a lot, but getting Smyth would offset Souray's loss and our PP strategy would move from the blueline to the crease...

[tokyohabs]

If Phaneuf is a RFA, why not offer him a 4 year $23M deal? If Calgary does not match (Calgary is cheap town) then HAbs have to give up draft choices.

We must do this immediately, if this is true. Hell, 4 years at 25 mil.

[ShortHanded]

AlexStream, I agree, I'd rather get a real high-end impact forward, who can play physical, and can play within our system like Drury or Smyth (not Briere, who is great but would be wasted talent because of his style of play on our team - sort of like Sammy) than Souray, if it comes down to that... and then try to sign Schneider or another good D who might not replace Souray's points but would be more than enough defensively to make up for Souray's loss.

[Peter Puck]

I like Markov enormously, but I don't see why people think he was guaranteed to get 6 mil on the open market. How many All Star games has Markov been to? None. That means a lot of people have rated him behind a lot of other defencemen.

The one thing he really had in his favour was that a few teams (Mtl, Edm) are desperatly short of high-end d and are forced to overpay for it. And so we did.

Does this mean you think Souray, who has been to 2 all star games including last years, is worth more than Markov?

[Fanpuck33]

If Phaneuf is a RFA, why not offer him a 4 year $23M deal? If Calgary does not match (Calgary is cheap town) then HAbs have to give up draft choices. This guy is going to be another Pronger Type, but offensively gifted. Just my 2cents....

Point one: Pronger, but offensively gifted? Since when is Chris Pronger not offensively gifted? The guy is a Norris and Hart winner, and is a finalist for the Hart almost every year. You don't get consideration for those awards just with defense. He's always in the top 10 scorers among defencemen. That's not offensively gifted?

Point two: Is any player worth giving up four first rounders?

[hab29RETIRED]

I too think Bob overpaid, but that has been his habit. Whatever else Bob is, he is not a great negotiator of salaries. The impact of that is he has less to pay a true elite player.

Markov is a great defenseman and clearly the Habs best, but he has never raised his game consistently to the elite level. This year he scored 6 goals? He was decent defensively, but he was not stunningly good in that department either. We laughed when they paid McCabe and Kaberle those big salaries, how are Markov and Souray different?

In any case, I am sure Souray will now want similar money, and all the players will expect big raises.

What is done is done, and I sure hope there is still money in the bank to pay an elite center, since this team clearly needs one.

That's what i was saying when he signed kovolev. Even back when he was with Dallas. Wasn't he the GM when they gave big deals to Arnott, Audette, Guerin???

Gainey paid what equates to market value - probably a lot less than he would have to on July 1st to get the same talent.

Fact is every NHL manager is overpaying for defenceman of this calibre... not just Gainey.

that's fair enough, but i was really hoping that we could get him for $5M or less. There's not much room going after a free agent now - especially if we sign Souray. I'm hoping that the habs lock up Higgins long-term now otherwise they are going to pay through the nose in another couple of years.

You make a good argument, but where is the foresight?

Did Gainey not look ahead to this summer and see that Souray and Markov would be the 2 most attractive Defensive Free Agents in 2007?

Markov just got close to a 4 million dollar raise. We all knew how important he was last summer, why not offer him 4 million and get it done before hand.

I know Bob has a policy of no negotiations throughout the season, but that leads to things like this.

Maybe Markov was determined to test the market in which case my point is moot. But I still am a little discouraged that our favourite underated defenceman

could have been signed for far less 6 months ago and Gainey let the market play him.

Jesus, even Ferguson stole Kaberle for just over 4 million because he slightly overpaid him in February and watched him become underpaid within the next season.

It was probably a fluke, but it was a great move.

I totally agree with you on that. I was pissed at the number of 1 year deals gainey has been signing guys to - which is why i really think we need to lock up Higgens to a long term deal - won't he be a UFA in 2 or 3 years??

oh, for sure, and you think Meehan/Markov would accept 4M for 4-5 years, BEFORE the lucrative year? ya, right...

it's no coincidence Markov contract came to an end RIGHT WHEN he became a UFA...

it was all calculated by Meehan...

Want another example from elsewhere? Paul Kariya signing for 1.2M for 1 year so that he could be UFA the next year at only 28.

Want another example? there are plenty, just realise that there are TWO SIDES in negotiations and that the other side has some advantages to wait before signing... wait another year so that there are more arguments for a bigger contract.

Why is Ryder signed year after year at 2M?

cause he doesn't want to lock himself for more than 1 year at that salary, just in case he gets a 40 goals season (worth 4M?) so that even with the BEST FORESIGHT, no one could ever force him to sign for more than 1 year... unless, that is, you sign him for 4M for 4 years... but is Ryder worth 4M???

no way!

Last season if we had wanted to buy Markov's "free agent status" we'd have had to offer... 23M for 4 years. Why? cause even though he hadn't had his "career year" yet, we'd have had to "overpay" (overpay at that time) to "force him" to sign before he got to the juicy status that he was, before signing the contract.

There are two sides to negotiations.

i think if you sign a guy to an escalating long-term deal you have a better chance of convicing him to stay. There's always the risk on the players side of taking 1 year deals - he could get injured or have a lousy year. The 1 year deal that Kariya signed with colorado blow up in his face as he played lousy and was injured in Colorado, which meant he also had to take lower deals when he signed in Nashville. He will cash in now, but that's after taking 3 years at less then market value.

Regarding salaries, Jovo is at 7M, Redden at 6.5M.

Neither have really played up to that standard at least this season.

Alexstream- I agree with the general sentiment of your post, but not every team in the league could afford to give a player 6M. To be honest he would have gotten at least as much on the free agency market, a team like Edmonton would offer him whatever it took, but it's not like all 30 teams would be lining up with offers.

that's my worry about Markov as well. I don't think he has played up to a 5.75M level - he is easily the habs best d-man but he is not a 5.75M player yet.

[hab29RETIRED]

If Phaneuf is a RFA, why not offer him a 4 year $23M deal? If Calgary does not match (Calgary is cheap town) then HAbs have to give up draft choices. This guy is going to be another Pronger Type, but offensively gifted. Just my 2cents....

I'd love the habs to make an offer to Phaneuf. But for the flames not to match the offer it would have to be close to the league max and for the habs to benefit, you woul notd want a 4 year deal, bcoz, it will probably be another 3 years for Phaneuf to hit his stride and be one of the top 3 d-men in the league and at that point, you would only be getting true value for one more year and then he would be close to being a UFA. For the Habs to make a push at a RFA like a Phaneuf or a Vanek, I think you need to have closer to a 7 or 8 year deal (and then you pray to god that the guy doesn't get hurt).

lol i think Markov could get nearly 6,5 with some teams : Snow and Wang gave a 15 yrs contract to a goaler, don't you think they can't go on a tilt again with a VERY promising young Dman ???

I thought he probably would have got around $6M, maybe a bit more if someone got stupid (which isn't inconcievable considering some of the morans that are GM's or owners), but i was hoping that when he said he would take less to stay in montreal it would have been in the $5M range.

[alexstream]

Point one: Pronger, but offensively gifted? Since when is Chris Pronger not offensively gifted? The guy is a Norris and Hart winner, and is a finalist for the Hart almost every year. You don't get consideration for those awards just with defense. He's always in the top 10 scorers among defencemen. That's not offensively gifted?

Point two: Is any player worth giving up four first rounders?

if we're sure to finish 1st in the league for the next 4 years, yes.

[hab29RETIRED]

We must do this immediately, if this is true. Hell, 4 years at 25 mil.

Like i said, for calgary not to match, you would have to offer close to the league max. You have to keep in mind that both Kiprusaff and Igilna are UFA's next year, there is no way that the flames are going to let their youngest and most valuable asset that they have the rights to for another 5 years walk away for nothing when they may also lose Igilna and Kipper next year.

AlexStream, I agree, I'd rather get a real high-end impact forward, who can play physical, and can play within our system like Drury or Smyth (not Briere, who is great but would be wasted talent because of his style of play on our team - sort of like Sammy) than Souray, if it comes down to that... and then try to sign Schneider or another good D who might not replace Souray's points but would be more than enough defensively to make up for Souray's loss.

I think the habs need more help on the D then an impact forward. They have a lot of young forwards who may be enough, but they are awful on defence. Unless of course they can dump Sammy and Kovy's salary - then i'd make a push for Brierre or Drury, although i think we would have absolutely no chance to sign Drury.

ALso keep in mind that during the next two years you also have Marleau, Thornton, Lecavailier that could potentially become free agents as well and it would be nice having the cap room to make a push for one of them.

Souray once in a interviews said 5 Mil per year was too much for him. I'm content with Markov's deal, nevertheless that leaves plenty of room for Souray to eat his words and ask for at least 5 mil per year. But "shite" were going to be spending at least 11 mil per year on 2 players that leaves less wiggle room for us to complete the roster on the D line and up front. So.... lets hope the cap hits 49 or more. IMO, I think Souray will be offered tops 5.5 for 3 or 2 years from the Habs if the cap hits 49 MIl. I'm hoping he signs for under 5 (as quoted from his comment) 4.75 per year for 3 years would make my day! if not we got an extra million or two to pay off the russian mob to let go of Yemlin and co.

I think anything over $9M/2yr for Souray is over paying. Personally, if i was in Bob's shoes i wouldn't pay more then $4m/yr , but given that he just had a career year, we have a lousy D and that he can probably get some idiot to pony up $6M plus.

If we could dump Dandenault and Boullion i'd go as high as $4.75M, but i can't see anyone wanting those two overpaid, under-acheiving bums.

[alexstream]

I totally agree with you on that. I was pissed at the number of 1 year deals gainey has been signing guys to - which is why i really think we need to lock up Higgens to a long term deal - won't he be a UFA in 2 or 3 years??

As I said, there are two sides to a negotiation table... Does Francois Giguère lacks foresight for not signing Leopold for longer than 2 years? Is it just a coincidence that Leopold's contract will finish RIGHT WHEN he'll become a UFA? Don't you see a trend there? EVERY RFA wanna benefit from their UFA bargaining powers... so they play it cool and safe while they are RFA... and BREAK THE BANK when they are UFA... Leopold will be asking for 5M a year in 2 years from now... Right now, he doesn't have the negotiation power to ask for that much. IF Giguère was to offer him 5 years at 5M, he'd be crazy... 5 years at 4M, he'd be losing money this year and next year...

Dont you understand that?

Let's say I'm a GM and you're a super prospect. If I offer you 5 years at 1M right now... would you accept it? or ask 500k for 1 year, knowing that you WILL prove you're worth more than 1M per... You know that you're gonna score 50 goals and you know that it's worht more than 1M... On the other hand, I, as the GM, know that you got potential... but you didn't do ANYTHING to deserve more than 1M per season yet. I know that you might score 50... But I cannot offer you 5M per season right away.

that's my worry about Markov as well. I don't think he has played up to a 5.75M level - he is easily the habs best d-man but he is not a 5.75M player yet.

That's the problem with every guys with UFA status... at the other end of the spectrum though, Markov was worth way more than 1.5M and 2M the past two seasons...

Plekanec was worth way more than 450k last season, etc...

I think anything over $9M/2yr for Souray is over paying. Personally, if i was in Bob's shoes i wouldn't pay more then $4m/yr , but given that he just had a career year, we have a lousy D and that he can probably get some idiot to pony up $6M plus.

If we could dump Dandenault and Boullion i'd go as high as $4.75M, but i can't see anyone wanting those two overpaid, under-acheiving bums.

I'd go up to 5M, just for his canon.

no matter how much we're giving, the choice is "to keep him or not"... cause the difference between 0 and, say, 4.5M is much greater than the difference between your wishfulthinking of 4.5 and the reality of 5.5M...

If you're ready to pay 4.5M for Souray... (but say he wants more and can get more elsewhere) then, IF YOU WANT TO KEEP HIM, 5.5M is not a long way from there...

STUPIDEST thing would be if we wanna keep him... but break negotiations because of a e.g. 500k difference (Ryan Smyth anyone?)...

[hab29RETIRED]

Point one: Pronger, but offensively gifted? Since when is Chris Pronger not offensively gifted? The guy is a Norris and Hart winner, and is a finalist for the Hart almost every year. You don't get consideration for those awards just with defense. He's always in the top 10 scorers among defencemen. That's not offensively gifted?

Point two: Is any player worth giving up four first rounders?

I would give up 4 first rounders for Phaneuf in a heartbeat. The habs have enough young players in the pipeline and cand trade some of them for picks later on. Guys like Bourque, Pronger,Lidstrom, Neidermayer only come along every so often. The risk with Phaneuf is if mentally he can take the next step or not - but i'd be willing to take that gamble. I wouldn't take the same gamble on Vanek, but if you can get a guy who can become one of the league's top 5 dmen for the next 10 years, i'd give up the draft picks. The harder part is willing to pay him enough (have to be at or close to the league limit), for calgary to let him walk (which i don't think they would do in any event).

Remember the last dman that was offered a big contract as a RFA was a Scott Stevens. Are you saying that you wouldn't be willing to give up 4 first ronders to get scott stevens in his prime???

[beliveau1]

.....I was pissed at the number of 1 year deals gainey has been signing guys to - which is why i really think we need to lock up Higgens to a long term deal - won't he be a UFA in 2 or 3 years?.....

One needs to think about this from the perspective of the players and their agents who convince them they should in some cases want the 1 year deals? Greed motivates most situations, and if an agent can force the hands of a manager to sign contracts that will have to be renegotiated every year, then that is more often than not in the best interest of his clients. It is not always the case, but it is often better to sign short contracts with bigger increases than to sign long term with minimized increases. In other words they were only interested in short term deals?

As well one has to take into consideration that in certain cases many of the players signed short term were brought in as stepping stones towards a future prospects laden lineup. A bunch of long term contracts to aging veterans would make it harder for a lot of obvious reasons to move in the young players that are ready to graduate. Managing and growing a champion is not about long term contracts all over the place. Trading players becomes much harder when they have bigger & longer contracts in a salary cap environment. Fans need to realize that maximizing your 'capology' is a definite art. The Leafs and a few other teams are paying the price for a lot of long term contracts.

As for overpaying - once July 1st rolls around just sit back and watch to see if these managers have learned anything from the past couple of years? Probably not as there will always be one guy willing to escalate the price of some middle of the line player. Especially decent defenceman, as they are a rarer breed than good forwards are...

Edited May 29, 2007 by beliveau1

[hab29RETIRED]

As I said, there are two sides to a negotiation table... Does Francois Giguère lacks foresight for not signing Leopold for longer than 2 years? Is it just a coincidence that Leopold's contract will finish RIGHT WHEN he'll become a UFA? Don't you see a trend there? EVERY RFA wanna benefit from their UFA bargaining powers... so they play it cool and safe while they are RFA... and BREAK THE BANK when they are UFA... Leopold will be asking for 5M a year in 2 years from now... Right now, he doesn't have the negotiation power to ask for that much. IF Giguère was to offer him 5 years at 5M, he'd be crazy... 5 years at 4M, he'd be losing money this year and next year...

Dont you understand that?

Let's say I'm a GM and you're a super prospect. If I offer you 5 years at 1M right now... would you accept it? or ask 500k for 1 year, knowing that you WILL prove you're worth more than 1M per... You know that you're gonna score 50 goals and you know that it's worht more than 1M... On the other hand, I, as the GM, know that you got potential... but you didn't do ANYTHING to deserve more than 1M per season yet. I know that you might score 50... But I cannot offer you 5M per season right away.

That's the problem with every guys with UFA status... at the other end of the spectrum though, Markov was worth way more than 1.5M and 2M the past two seasons...

Plekanec was worth way more than 450k last season, etc...

I'd go up to 5M, just for his canon.

no matter how much we're giving, the choice is "to keep him or not"... cause the difference between 0 and, say, 4.5M is much greater than the difference between your wishfulthinking of 4.5 and the reality of 5.5M...

If you're ready to pay 4.5M for Souray... (but say he wants more and can get more elsewhere) then, IF YOU WANT TO KEEP HIM, 5.5M is not a long way from there...

STUPIDEST thing would be if we wanna keep him... but break negotiations because of a e.g. 500k difference (Ryan Smyth anyone?)...

I just think that is too much to pay a guy who has a long injury record and for a d-man who is so one dimensional and may also want a no trade clause and a minimum of 3 years. Souray has never been consistant year over year - granted injuries are the main reason (2 years ago his divorce also played a factor), but in today's cap world, offering that much to an injury prone, one dimenstional player doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense.

[Wamsley01]

oh, for sure, and you think Meehan/Markov would accept 4M for 4-5 years, BEFORE the lucrative year? ya, right...

it's no coincidence Markov contract came to an end RIGHT WHEN he became a UFA...

it was all calculated by Meehan...

Want another example from elsewhere? Paul Kariya signing for 1.2M for 1 year so that he could be UFA the next year at only 28.

Want another example? there are plenty, just realise that there are TWO SIDES in negotiations and that the other side has some advantages to wait before signing... wait another year so that there are more arguments for a bigger contract.

Why is Ryder signed year after year at 2M?

cause he doesn't want to lock himself for more than 1 year at that salary, just in case he gets a 40 goals season (worth 4M?) so that even with the BEST FORESIGHT, no one could ever force him to sign for more than 1 year... unless, that is, you sign him for 4M for 4 years... but is Ryder worth 4M???

no way!

Last season if we had wanted to buy Markov's "free agent status" we'd have had to offer... 23M for 4 years. Why? cause even though he hadn't had his "career year" yet, we'd have had to "overpay" (overpay at that time) to "force him" to sign before he got to the juicy status that he was, before signing the contract.

There are two sides to negotiations.

I still believe Meehan would have taken less than 5.75 last summer. It would have been a gamble by both parties. But a gamble with rewards for both sides.

Gainey seems to get abused in contract negotiations.

The fact that he is not locking in his youth makes me nervous. The biggest advantage to having the youth in the system the Habs do is cheap labour.

But letting them operate on 1 year deals is counterproductive. Once the Habs give Ryder 2M/year it will not go south from there.

So you are essentally locking him in to a 2M annual salary that goes up instantly if he has a big year. That is lack of vision and makes it look like Gainey is not sure

what type of player Ryder will be. Bob has to aggressively identify the kids he wants to build around and sllghtly overpay them now so that they become bargains

in the 3rd and 4th year of their deals.

Any of us can sit and watch what the players do, assess what comparables do, and then pay them accordingly.

Is that what the expectation has become?

Are we going to pay Higgins 1.5M on a 1 year deal and have him get 90 pts and have to pay him a 3M raise when you could have locked him at 2.5M or 3M for 4 years?

Why did Gainey not see that Souray was going to have a big year? He had flashes the last 2 years of becoming a premier offensive defenceman.

I am not going to just say, how was he to know. How the hell was he supposed to know that Price would have the year he did? These are investments.

You do not buy Nortel at $150 a share, you buy it at $10. You speculate that these kids are worth it.

To say Markov would not take 4M last year is a stretch without inside info. Bob needs to be more aggressive with locking up the youth.

Taking the easy way out gets you mediocrity. Bold moves can blow up in your face but the also could lead you to the next level.

Gainey's free ride as saviour has expired. He has now had 4 seasons to put his mark on this franchise, the next 2 seasons will show us what direction

he is taking us. I for one am no longer expecting Briere, Drury, Smythe to ride in on a white horse and make us a powerhouse.

This team's future is Higgins/Pleks/Lats/Komisarek/####/Chips/Lapierre/Price. Not the Free Agent market.

[hab29RETIRED]

One needs to think about this from the perspective of the players and their agents who convince them they should in some cases want the 1 year deals? Greed motivates most situations, and if an agent can force the hands of a manager to sign contracts that will have to be renegotiated every year, then that is more often than not in the best interest of his clients. It is not always the case, but it is often better to sign short contracts with bigger increases than to sign long term with minimized increases. In other words they were only interested in short term deals?

As well one has to take into consideration that in certain cases many of the players signed short term were brought in as stepping stones towards a future prospects laden lineup. A bunch of long term contracts to aging veterans would make it harder for a lot of obvious reasons to move in the young players that are ready to graduate. Managing and growing a champion is not about long term contracts all over the place. Trading players becomes much harder when they have bigger & longer contracts in a salary cap environment. Fans need to realize that maximizing your 'capology' is a definite art. The Leafs and a few other teams are paying the price for a lot of long term contracts.

As for overpaying - once July 1st rolls around just sit back and watch to see if these managers have learned anything from the past couple of years? Probably not as there will always be one guy willing to escalate the price of some middle of the line player. Especially decent defenceman, as they are a rarer breed than good forwards are...

oh i know that minutes after july 1, there will be incredibly stupid signings, but the bottom line is there are a number of successful times who don't get drawn into the stupidity, in fact it usually is the successful teams that don't make dumb signings. Look at the NYR, until the past two years, what have their signings got them??? same for Dallas, Toronto, LA and boston. The teams that did spend a lot on UFA's and are successful are the one's that paid a guy what he was actually worth (i.e. Neidermeyer in anaheim).

Edited May 29, 2007 by hab29RETIRED

[Chris]

Good points and insight. I agree with the future is the youth and a fix it free agant player is not is BG plans. I have been saying that all along.

ANother poster mentioned the team has all the leverage on young players, once Higgins, Pleks, Kosti, Komi get to be 25-27 you will see those players getting longer deals.

My opinion is that BG didn't think his youth would be NHl ready this quickly, thus he signed players Koivu, Kovalev Bouillon, Dandy to contracts that were a year or 2 too long. Now the youth has to wait to get serious minutes.

I for one think BG has done a great job. Ranked #2 as far as depth in the orginizations.

Dallas did always make the playoffs witrh good teams. Not great.

[alexstream]

I just think that is too much to pay a guy who has a long injury record and for a d-man who is so one dimensional and may also want a no trade clause and a minimum of 3 years. Souray has never been consistant year over year - granted injuries are the main reason (2 years ago his divorce also played a factor), but in today's cap world, offering that much to an injury prone, one dimenstional player doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense.

yup, but if 5M is WAY too much, then 4M is too much too... and 3M is alright although a bit overpaid

you see where I'm going?

The decision is whether we keep him or not... cause if we keep him, it's over 4M for sure... and 4M "might be" too much for the type of D Souray is... depending on what we wanna do with this team.

[InsaneHABSfan]

Point one: Pronger, but offensively gifted? Since when is Chris Pronger not offensively gifted? The guy is a Norris and Hart winner, and is a finalist for the Hart almost every year. You don't get consideration for those awards just with defense. He's always in the top 10 scorers among defencemen. That's not offensively gifted?

Point two: Is any player worth giving up four first rounders?

Point one. Mr. Puck... you are right...DUH on me, I never really noticed he was offensively gifted so I stand corrected. I just enjoy watching his defensive BIGNESS and how he eraticates people from their equipment.

Point two. YES GIVE UP 4 first rounders. How many of those guys are going to pan out to be better than Phaneuf? NONE..Period. Montreal over the next 4 years are going to be much better with their developing young forwards; and to get a player of this calibre and trade away what #24 pick overall(A guess on my part) over 4 cosecutive years is the price to pay.

Who was Montreal's last superstar??? Roy???

Normally I would stand right in line with you, no way do you trade 1st rounders but this guy is huge (In hockey sense)

[alexstream]

I still believe Meehan would have taken less than 5.75 last summer. It would have been a gamble by both parties. But a gamble with rewards for both sides.

Gainey seems to get abused in contract negotiations.

The fact that he is not locking in his youth makes me nervous. The biggest advantage to having the youth in the system the Habs do is cheap labour.

But letting them operate on 1 year deals is counterproductive. Once the Habs give Ryder 2M/year it will not go south from there.

So you are essentally locking him in to a 2M annual salary that goes up instantly if he has a big year. That is lack of vision and makes it look like Gainey is not sure

what type of player Ryder will be. Bob has to aggressively identify the kids he wants to build around and sllghtly overpay them now so that they become bargains

in the 3rd and 4th year of their deals.

Any of us can sit and watch what the players do, assess what comparables do, and then pay them accordingly.

Is that what the expectation has become?

Are we going to pay Higgins 1.5M on a 1 year deal and have him get 90 pts and have to pay him a 3M raise when you could have locked him at 2.5M or 3M for 4 years?

Why did Gainey not see that Souray was going to have a big year? He had flashes the last 2 years of becoming a premier offensive defenceman.

I am not going to just say, how was he to know. How the hell was he supposed to know that Price would have the year he did? These are investments.

You do not buy Nortel at $150 a share, you buy it at $10. You speculate that these kids are worth it.

To say Markov would not take 4M last year is a stretch without inside info. Bob needs to be more aggressive with locking up the youth.

Taking the easy way out gets you mediocrity. Bold moves can blow up in your face but the also could lead you to the next level.

Gainey's free ride as saviour has expired. He has now had 4 seasons to put his mark on this franchise, the next 2 seasons will show us what direction

he is taking us. I for one am no longer expecting Briere, Drury, Smythe to ride in on a white horse and make us a powerhouse.

This team's future is Higgins/Pleks/Lats/Komisarek/####/Chips/Lapierre/Price. Not the Free Agent market.

same can be said about you "without inside info"

Fact is, you CLEARLY lack "knowledge" of how the Market is in NHL... Just look at ANY OTHER TEAM and only rarely do RFA sign longterm deals...

I have only 3 examples :

Dipietro 15 years heavily critiqued contract

Zherdev's 3years 7.5M undeserved contract (many in CBS say it's a big blunder)

Kariya's disaster setting 10M contract when he was only 22 or 23... it set a precedent and NHL just went crazy after that.

Like I explained earlier, Leopold just signed a short term low $$ contract and every other RFA is doing the same... That's not "lack of foresight" by the GM... that's HOW THE MARKET WORKS.

With "foresight", we should sign Price to a 20 years 3M per year contract.

Higgins to a 15 years 4M per year contract.

etc etc etc...

But hey... isn't there a cap?

[JoeLassister]

Why did Gainey not see that Souray was going to have a big year? He had flashes the last 2 years of becoming a premier offensive defenceman.

Oh and i suppose you knew it clearly ??? Why Bob did not see that Plex would have an amazing 2nd half season??? He might be blind? And everybody like you knew that Samsonov would be so poor and would trash talk in the media that was so obvious back to last summer...

Go give your CV to Pierre Boivin then...

[Wamsley01]

same can be said about you "without inside info"

Fact is, you CLEARLY lack "knowledge" of how the Market is in NHL... Just look at ANY OTHER TEAM and only rarely do RFA sign longterm deals...

I have only 3 examples :

Dipietro 15 years heavily critiqued contract

Zherdev's 3years 7.5M undeserved contract (many in CBS say it's a big blunder)

Kariya's disaster setting 10M contract when he was only 22 or 23... it set a precedent and NHL just went crazy after that.

Like I explained earlier, Leopold just signed a short term low $$ contract and every other RFA is doing the same... That's not "lack of foresight" by the GM... that's HOW THE MARKET WORKS.

Lets use Dany Heatley/Micheal Ryder as an example. If the Habs offered Heatley 1 year deals like Micheal Ryder what would it have cost them over his contract?

Ryder

Year 1 - 63 points (25 goals) Salary - entry level

Year 2 - 55 points (30 goals) Salary - $1M

Year 3 - 58 points (30 goals) Salary - $2.2M

So Ryder's salary is consistently rising even though his production is not. You are telling me that Ryder was so extremely confident in his ability that he would not have excepted anything less than a 1 year deal after his rookie year? What is he going to cost the Habs this year? 2.5M, 3M? So Gainey has raised his salary every year even though his production has not warranted it? What leverage does Ryder have? He is an RFA. When did RFA's start running the game?

What if Ottawa had treated Dany Heatley the same after his initial deal expired?

Year 4 - 103 points (50 goals) - 3.5M

Year 5 - 108 points (50 goals) - 4.5M

Year 6 - 5.5M

Are you telling me that Ottawa would have been able to get Heatley at that price this season or last season? What is the rate for a 50 goal scorer? Is it 4.5M a season?

Ottawa fixed their costs at 4.5M a season. If they offered him 4.5M on a 1 year deal, what would his increase have been after a 50 goal season? 5.5M? 6M?

Now he scores another 50. Now what is he worth? He now has back to back 50 goal years under his belt. Is he worth 6.5M? 7M?

Don't tell me he would not be getting a massive increase, Ryder has and his numbers have plataued. So instead of paying Heatley 13.5M over 3 years it would have cost them 16M - 17M.

In the new NHL that is Preissing or Emery's salary for 3 years. You repeat that mistake for 2-3 players and you are talking a 4.5M player per year.

I understand that it is the agents goal to max out for their client, but there are 7 years from the moment they come into the league until they become a UFA to invest early

and control the costs. Maybe Markov would have turned it down, but it was not offered as far as we know. And you do not know how much Markov wanted to stay.

Neither of us know, but you are the one talking in absolutes. I am suggesting they overpaid and they could have signed him for less if they tried to negotiate earlier.

Get off your high horse. I understand the market. I also understand that a complete Buffoon name Ferguson convinced Kaberle to sign before he hit the market. Something I am sure you would have told me was impossible before it happened for the same reasons you stated in this thread. I also understand that Gainey has consistently overpaid for Theo, Kovalev, Koivu, Ribiero. He overpaid again.

Also the following players signed to multi year deals before they were UFA elgible as well as Zherdev/Dipietro/Kariya:

Eric Staal

Patrice Bergeron

Erik Cole

Justin Williams

Jay Bouwmeester

Ales Hemsky

Marion Gaborik

Alexander Frolov

Jonathon Cheechoo

Rick Nash

Henrik Zetterberg

So it happens much more than you would indicate.

Edited May 29, 2007 by Wamsley01

[Wamsley01]

Oh and i suppose you knew it clearly ??? Why Bob did not see that Plex would have an amazing 2nd half season??? He might be blind? And everybody like you knew that Samsonov would be so poor and would trash talk in the media that was so obvious back to last summer...

Go give your CV to Pierre Boivin then...

Please, people like you kill me, this is a forum to give opinions. I am asking questions, legitimate questions. It is not my livelihood to specualte and invest in million dollar hockey players.

I come here with opinions for discussion and debate. So does everybody else. As far as Samsonov, if you look at his declining numbers was it really a stretch to see him not being a saviour.

He is still a good hockey player, but Carbonneau's handling of him was a disaster. He will still make an impact somewhere else.

[Fanpuck33]

Point two. YES GIVE UP 4 first rounders. How many of those guys are going to pan out to be better than Phaneuf? NONE..Period. Montreal over the next 4 years are going to be much better with their developing young forwards; and to get a player of this calibre and trade away what #24 pick overall(A guess on my part) over 4 cosecutive years is the price to pay.

Individually, yes, it is unlikely any will be better than Dion. But what about overall depth? Is it better to have Phaneuf and 3 waiver bums/crappy UFAs/prospects who aren't really NHL caliber of to have four first round talent players. It would be like trading Komi, Higs, Kosty, and Chips for a single player. That takes away 3 guys who will be very important to the team and another who still has great potential as a 3rd line center with leadership.