Lafleur Rips the Habs

[Wamsley01]

Lafleur was a great player but I don't think his modern hockey analysis can really be taken seriously. He's just another fan now, and his comments are ridiculous.

He ripped them, they deserved to be ripped, he was not that far off base if you look at the way they are playing.

But if people want to be literal of course he is wrong. But just another slow day in Montreal, at least is not like the circus that is going on in T.O. at the moment.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

I don't care about the comments one way or another.

He didn't say the team plays like a bunch of 4th liners, he said the team was made up of 4th liners.

Would that not be a shot at Gainey and not the team itself?

Carbo said it best, "Guy is just being Guy".

[BTH]

He ripped them, they deserved to be ripped, he was not that far off base if you look at the way they are playing.

But if people want to be literal of course he is wrong. But just another slow day in Montreal, at least is not like the circus that is going on in T.O. at the moment.

I think he was being literal. He didn't say they were playing like fourth liners, he said they are fourth liners. He seems just like some of the grumpy bandwagon fans who jump on the first opportunity to report their knee-jerk reactions even on this site. They're obviously playing badly, but for one thing, it's not his place, he does not have a say in how they play and his opinion really doesn't have much more value than any random fan's does. And then for another thing, it's an obvious exaggeration; that, even the most clueless fan knows.

Is it really Guy Lafleur's role to "spark" the Habs? No, Guy, Patrick Roy et al should keep their comments to themselves. How can people bash Kovalev for making comments like "we should have been more prepared at the end of the game, and maybe called a timeout" and then praise ex-Habs for speaking their minds. e.g. when Roy bashed Latendresse and the organization last year, saying they only kept Gui because he was francophone. It's not his place, his opinion shouldn't even be in the newspapers.

Props to Gui for a Roy-like comeback though: "I thought I was the one who's supposed to be nineteen."

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

This is a bit of a running sore with me. I love the organization Gainey has put in place and many of its decisions, BUT - the fact remains that other franchises that have had worse drafting positions than ours, have managed to bag elite-level offensive talent, and we haven't.

The example par excellence is Detroit. These guys finish in the top 5 annually and yet manage to draft Datsyuk and Zetterberg. What gives? The Avalanche get Paul Stastny. The Devils find a Parise or Gionta or Gomez. And they find these players while winning Cups and finishing in the upper echelons of hockey.

It's worth asking whether we're doing something wrong on the specific issue of identifying and nurturing elite offensive players.

(I thought Higgins might break through this season. He's been good, but have you seen his numbers? Yuck!)

[Wamsley01]

I think he was being literal. He didn't say they were playing like fourth liners, he said they are fourth liners. He seems just like some of the grumpy bandwagon fans who jump on the first opportunity to report their knee-jerk reactions even on this site. They're obviously playing badly, but for one thing, it's not his place, he does not have a say in how they play and his opinion really doesn't have much more value than any random fan's does. And then for another thing, it's an obvious exaggeration; that, even the most clueless fan knows.

Is it really Guy Lafleur's role to "spark" the Habs? No, Guy, Patrick Roy et al should keep their comments to themselves. How can people bash Kovalev for making comments like "we should have been more prepared at the end of the game, and maybe called a timeout" and then praise ex-Habs for speaking their minds. e.g. when Roy bashed Latendresse and the organization last year, saying they only kept Gui because he was francophone. It's not his place, his opinion shouldn't even be in the newspapers.

Props to Gui for a Roy-like comeback though: "I thought I was the one who's supposed to be nineteen."

Why is it not their place to speak their mind? I don't think Guy Lafleur called up the media to make his comments.

I do not take what they say seriously, but they have earned the right to say whatever the hell they like. If you asked me the question I would tell you what I think, because I have nothing to lose. They are not players anymore, they do not need to be PC to collect their endorsements and protect the sanctity of the ROOM. They have nothing to lose.

Plus, their opinion does matter more than a random guy on the board. If you were interviewed by RDS and said the same thing, I can assure you there would be no thread on this board discussing it. They are both Hall of Famers and when they speak, people listen. That will not change.

Kovalev and Lafleur's comments are not comparable in anyway. One is in the room with the players, he plays for the coach and his criticism can cause friction in the room. Lafleur is a Hall of Famer who is calling shit play for what it is, shit play. I don't see anybody on here criticizing Lafleur's comments because the Habs are playing well. He said what he said, if they don't like it, go out and paste the Leafs tonight. If they go out meekly like they have 4 of the last 6 games then be prepared to get ripped by guys who did their time and held the torch high with pride.

Also, you honestly believe that Guy Lafleur literally thinks that Saku Koivu and Alex Kovalev are 4th liner NHLers? No chance

[Wamsley01]

This is a bit of a running sore with me. I love the organization Gainey has put in place and many of its decisions, BUT - the fact remains that other franchises that have had worse drafting positions than ours, have managed to bag elite-level offensive talent, and we haven't.

The example par excellence is Detroit. These guys finish in the top 5 annually and yet manage to draft Datsyuk and Zetterberg. What gives? The Avalanche get Paul Stastny. The Devils find a Parise or Gionta or Gomez. And they find these players while winning Cups and finishing in the upper echelons of hockey.

It's worth asking whether we're doing something wrong on the specific issue of identifying and nurturing elite offensive players.

(I thought Higgins might break through this season. He's been good, but have you seen his numbers? Yuck!)

Yeah, it is frustrating. Maybe they pass on guys who they feel will not be defensively responisble? Who knows.

But it has been a long time since they drafted a guy who was an offensive dynamo. Richer maybe? Naslund?

Let's hope Lil #### can be one of those impact scorers. He is dwarfing anything in the AHL that any of our prospects have amassed straight out of junior. He is light years ahead of his brother so far. Big #### had 23 points in his full rookie year.

I know that there were language issues and an adjustment period, but one can hope.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Wamsley01

[Athlétique.Canadien]

Guy is a funny guy. I really don't put too much stock in to it. It's becoming a "Roy or Lafleur said this or that" once every 6 months. It's been reduced to a "what now?"

[Nilan]

He ripped them, they deserved to be ripped, he was not that far off base if you look at the way they are playing.

But if people want to be literal of course he is wrong. But just another slow day in Montreal, at least is not like the circus that is going on in T.O. at the moment.

It was classless, pure and simple.

[Wamsley01]

It was classless, pure and simple.

Well, not everybody can be Jean Beliveau.

But if calling a dog a dog is classless, then so be it. The best way to assure nobody can make those type of comments is to bust your ass nightly.

[BTH]

They're causing controversies and scandals tha tthe team does not need.

Also, you do not "earn" a right to be considered a good "hockey guy" just because you were once a great player. If Michael Jackson had made this comment it would also be in the news. Like you said, the only reason why it's in the paper is because it's a celebrity saying it, not because it's a smart or accurate opinion/analysis/comment/thought. But why should they open their mouths at all to the idea? If they're interviewed just say the "right" things ("the team could be playing a bit better but...") like most people do - there's absolutely no need to criticize the team and possibly management, especially when you know your comments will make the front page.

"Also, you honestly believe that Guy Lafleur literally thinks that Saku Koivu and Alex Kovalev are 4th liner NHLers? No chance"

No, I don't, but it is a typical knee-jerk reaction and I believe that Lafleur honestly believed that, at the moment, the Habs were such a terrible team that they must have four fourth lines without taking a moment to think about any specific players.

[brobin]

They're causing controversies and scandals tha tthe team does not need.

Also, you do not "earn" a right to be considered a good "hockey guy" just because you were once a great player. If Michael Jackson had made this comment it would also be in the news. Like you said, the only reason why it's in the paper is because it's a celebrity saying it, not because it's a smart or accurate opinion/analysis/comment/thought. But why should they open their mouths at all to the idea? If they're interviewed just say the "right" things ("the team could be playing a bit better but...") like most people do - there's absolutely no need to criticize the team and possibly management, especially when you know your comments will make the front page.

"Also, you honestly believe that Guy Lafleur literally thinks that Saku Koivu and Alex Kovalev are 4th liner NHLers? No chance"

No, I don't, but it is a typical knee-jerk reaction and I believe that Lafleur honestly believed that, at the moment, the Habs were such a terrible team that they must have four fourth lines without taking a moment to think about any specific players.

Maybe it will embarrass them and they will show up against the leafs tonight. Not holding my breath...

First, I don't think we have a strong 1st line. Not one of them would be a top line guy on the top teams in this league. That said, they are playing like a 4th line lately. Ryder is on the 4th line now isn't he? Koivu is still plodding along at the just under a point a game.

[johnnyhasbeen]

....

Edited November 28, 2007 by johnnyhasbeen

[Habsfan]

AS much as I love and Respect the Flower, i think he shouldn't have said those things.

I am pretty sure that Guy doesn'T believe what he said. It's in his nature tho say things sometimes just to get a reaction. Guy Lafleur has never been know to be Jean Béliveau. He speaks his mind, and was fortunate enough to play on the greatest team ever assembled in the history of the NHL(76-77 Habs). That's why it makes it harder for him to see the Habs struggling on offence...he never had that problem!

I think that Guy has earned the right to critisize the habs, but it should be constructive criticism, not just some lame comment made to get the attention of the media!

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Yeah, it is frustrating. Maybe they pass on guys who they feel will not be defensively responisble? Who knows.

But it has been a long time since they drafted a guy who was an offensive dynamo. Richer maybe? Naslund?

Let's hope Lil #### can be one of those impact scorers. He is dwarfing anything in the AHL that any of our prospects have amassed straight out of junior. He is light years ahead of his brother so far. Big #### had 23 points in his full rookie year.

I know that there were language issues and an adjustment period, but one can hope.

The last authentic offensive dynamo the Habs drafted was Saku Koivu. He led the league in scoring after 50 games in 1996-97, before blowing out his knee in a castrophic MCL (?) tear from which he never fully recovered. When people say Koivu is not a #1 centreman, they mean the post-knee-injury Koivu - not the unbelievably explosive centreman he was before.

It's such a shame. He would have been, should have been, our Sakic or Sundin: the elite, top-10 player you can use to anchor your roster for years.

Come to think of it, maybe the real issue is less the drafting and more the fact that you only get one or two great players per decade, and the one great offensive player we did develop was diminished by an awful injury.

[Wamsley01]

The last authentic offensive dynamo the Habs drafted was Saku Koivu. He led the league in scoring after 50 games in 1996-97, before blowing out his knee in a castrophic MCL (?) tear from which he never fully recovered. When people say Koivu is not a #1 centreman, they mean the post-knee-injury Koivu - not the unbelievably explosive centreman he was before.

It's such a shame. He would have been, should have been, our Sakic or Sundin: the elite, top-10 player you can use to anchor your roster for years.

Come to think of it, maybe the real issue is less the drafting and more the fact that you only get one or two great players per decade, and the one great offensive player we did develop was diminished by an awful injury.

Was it 50 games? Or was it mid December? Either way everybody does forget how good he was that year. I always wonder if he avoided the injury bug for 3 straight years what he could have accomplished. I still remember him flying down the wing and blowing one by Richter in the 96 Playoffs.

[Habsfan]

Was it 50 games? Or was it mid December? Either way everybody does forget how good he was that year. I always wonder if he avoided the injury bug for 3 straight years what he could have accomplished. I still remember him flying down the wing and blowing one by Richter in the 96 Playoffs.

I agree. I remember Koivu leading the league after about 30-35 games, not 50 games. I also remember the game where he blew out his knee. It was against the Blackhawks at the "Molson Centre".

I must admit that i ask myself "what could have been", had Koivu not ruined his knee that year. All I remember was that Koivu had something like 38 points after 29 games, and then the injury occured.

He came back later that year, and finished with 56 points in 50 games played. I thikn it was the only season he ever got more than 1 point per game!

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I agree. I remember Koivu leading the league after about 30-35 games, not 50 games. I also remember the game where he blew out his knee. It was against the Blackhawks at the "Molson Centre".

I must admit that i ask myself "what could have been", had Koivu not ruined his knee that year. All I remember was that Koivu had something like 38 points after 29 games, and then the injury occured.

He came back later that year, and finished with 56 points in 50 games played. I thikn it was the only season he ever got more than 1 point per game!

You guys are right, it wasn't 50 games. My bad. However, he had clearly figured out the NHL game and was in the process of asserting himself, not just as a 'good' player, but a bona fide superstar. Look at it this way: how many teams have anyone who can lead the league in scoring by December?

Of course, you could argue that he was helped by the fact that the Habs had Damphousse and Turgeon as their other centres (until that blithering, drooling chimpanzee Rejean Houle dealt Turgeon AND Conroy!! for Corson and Baron). Teams couldn't focus just on him. Nonetheless, he has never again recovered the sheer explosiveness - the extra gear - that his skating possessed then. The knee injury is the only explanation.

When you add the fact that Donald Audette was a point-a-game player who had his arm sliced apart in a career-ending injury only five games into his time with the CH, you realize that the Habs have not *only* suffered from abysmal management over the last decade; they've also had horrendous luck, with two of their best offensive players of that era having been damaged and/or ruined by catastrophic injury.

Edited November 29, 2007 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Wamsley01]

You guys are right, it wasn't 50 games. My bad. However, he had clearly figured out the NHL game and was in the process of asserting himself, not just as a 'good' player, but a bona fide superstar. Look at it this way: how many teams have anyone who can lead the league in scoring by December?

Of course, you could argue that he was helped by the fact that the Habs had Damphousse and Turgeon as their other centres (until that blithering, drooling chimpanzee Rejean Houle dealt Turgeon AND Conroy!! for Corson and Baron). Teams couldn't focus just on him. Nonetheless, he has never again recovered the sheer explosiveness - the extra gear - that his skating possessed then. The knee injury is the only explanation.

When you add the fact that Donald Audette was a point-a-game player who had his arm sliced apart in a career-ending injury only five games into his time with the CH, you realize that the Habs have not *only* suffered from abysmal management over the last decade; they've also had horrendous luck, with two of their best offensive players of that era having been damaged and/or ruined by catastrophic injury.

I remember the 98-2000 as Koivu going down yearly and essentially losing all hope in November

[BCHabnut]

I remember the 98-2000 as Koivu going down yearly and essentially losing all hope in November

As far as Koivu goes, I think he's the best player on the team. When Koivu has a bad game, the Habs have a bad game. It may be a bad statement for the team to say that, but when he isn't playing well, we totally count on the goalie to save us. I don't know why, but that's how it has worked in the past. I think the team is finally getting over that now that our 4th 2nd line is strong. Or are Kovy Plex and #### our 4th 1st line now?

[sbhatt]

Or are Kovy Plex and #### our 4th 1st line now?

You mean our 1st 4th line....and I'd say that yes they are our 1st line, based on performance.

[smon]

Yeah, in terms of Koivu - it really is tough to see. I'm glad he is putting up full seasons and good production these days, but man he had the makings of a superstar before his injuries struck.

The way it goes sometimes, I guess. And Koivu's sadly had more than his fair share of that.

He could have been one of the greats of the past decade.

[JMMR]

As far as Koivu goes, I think he's the best player on the team. When Koivu has a bad game, the Habs have a bad game. It may be a bad statement for the team to say that, but when he isn't playing well, we totally count on the goalie to save us. I don't know why, but that's how it has worked in the past. I think the team is finally getting over that now that our 4th 2nd line is strong. Or are Kovy Plex and #### our 4th 1st line now?

I think that used to be the case but now I believe the Canadiens best players are Markov Hamrlik and Komisarek when all three of those guys play well the Habs will be in a lot of games. This is one of the reasons they have yet to be blown out this year.

[Pierre the Great]

i love these threads and how some famous player trolls the media and you guys lap it up like a thirsty dog.

there's nothing wrong with this team, except they can't play well at home, mostly because of the feast or famine hostile reaction to everything that you guys and the media push on these people.

elder statesmen are only good for sound bites to rile up the base and cause anarchy.

[Habsfan]

Nonetheless, he has never again recovered the sheer explosiveness - the extra gear - that his skating possessed then. The knee injury is the only explanation

No doubt about it. I can just imagine how his career would have turned out had he not injured his knee in 1996. He was on pace to get over 100 points that year... something that no Habs player has done since Mats Naslund in 1986.