Permanent Rumour Thread

[JMMR]

Weber to Detroit a possibility

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Detroit has to be approaching desperation. Here is a team with a sub-.500 record without Lidstrom. They didn't get Suter. While I'm sure they're playing it cool in the knowledge that they have two months to patch together some sort of alternative D-corps, they are facing the final closing of their window as serious contenders if they don't do something. If I'm Bergeron, I definitely keep the lines of communication open re: Weber and Kaberle, either of which could well be on the Wings' radar.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Let's not forget that Detroit is still a competent franchise. Yes, even after signing Tootoo.

Replacing Lidstrom is not replacing offence but defence as well. Kaberle and Weber do not accomplish that at all. Detroit might take Markov and would unquestionably take Subban but that's where it ends. Not a good trading partner.

If you want to trade Weber or Kaberle, you need to look at PP numbers and defensive jobs. Montreal shouldn't trade both because there's no promise of Markov turning around the entire PP. Better to trade Weber and see if you can get a goalie prospect for him. Johan Gustavsson in Minnesota for example.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Let's not forget that Detroit is still a competent franchise. Yes, even after signing Tootoo.

Replacing Lidstrom is not replacing offence but defence as well. Kaberle and Weber do not accomplish that at all. Detroit might take Markov and would unquestionably take Subban but that's where it ends. Not a good trading partner.

If you want to trade Weber or Kaberle, you need to look at PP numbers and defensive jobs. Montreal shouldn't trade both because there's no promise of Markov turning around the entire PP. Better to trade Weber and see if you can get a goalie prospect for him. Johan Gustavsson in Minnesota for example.

I certainly agree we can't trade both. Our D is dubious enough as it is. As for Detroit, we'll see; obviously they'd like to acquire 'complete' defencemen to replace Lidstrom (as if replacing him were possible), but I was suggesting they may find that difficult to do, and therefore they might be willing to settle for a Kaberle or Weber. The assumption that, just because they're Detroit, they're above patchwork strategies strikes me as unduly optimistic. They're in a tough spot, tougher than many teams.

[hab29RETIRED]

I'd rather move Kaberle and his salary. Weber still has an upside, going to a team like Detroit, who knows he may develop into a Rafalski.

Let's not forget that Detroit is still a competent franchise. Yes, even after signing Tootoo.

Replacing Lidstrom is not replacing offence but defence as well. Kaberle and Weber do not accomplish that at all. Detroit might take Markov and would unquestionably take Subban but that's where it ends. Not a good trading partner.

If you want to trade Weber or Kaberle, you need to look at PP numbers and defensive jobs. Montreal shouldn't trade both because there's no promise of Markov turning around the entire PP. Better to trade Weber and see if you can get a goalie prospect for him. Johan Gustavsson in Minnesota for example.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

I'd rather move Kaberle and his salary. Weber still has an upside, going to a team like Detroit, who knows he may develop into a Rafalski.

Is Weber going to provide 30 points and backup in case Markov goes down due to injury? Do we really want another Campoli situation?

[Commandant]

I guarantee Weber never becomes a 3 time NHL allstar, two time Olympic medalist, and 3 time cup champ with 500 career points like Rafalski is

I'll eat my hat if that happens.

[hab29RETIRED]

Hey when they picked up campoli I said the guy was a bum and there was nothing to like but his salary. When I pointed out his lousy play in the playoffs with the hawks, as usaual, others on this site defended gauthier and campoli.

All that idiot gauthier did ladt year was spend $6m on two number 6 dmen, rather going out and spending $6m on a true top 3 dman.

I'd rather pick up a true top 4 dman then have 4 #6 dmen. IMO neither Kaberle or weber are the answers - we pretty much screwed up webers development. He could have benefited from a crack like Robinson, like Rafalski did.

Is Weber going to provide 30 points and backup in case Markov goes down due to injury? Do we really want another Campoli situation?

[Commandant]

Its always about screwed up development, its never that the Player maybe just wasn't good enought to begin with.

Guys who are truly destined to be stars rise above and excel regardless.

You've complained how Weber was misused at forward... Streit was screwed around far more than Weber has been, and he's excelled despite that because he's an actual talent.

[hab29RETIRED]

There's a slight difference having a 26 or 27 year old switch positions then a 20 or 21 year old with less then a full year of minor league experience.

Maybe the concept or importance of player development is lost on you, but there is a reason, why the organization finally hired so many people in player development roles.

Its always about screwed up development, its never that the Player maybe just wasn't good enought to begin with.

Guys who are truly destined to be stars rise above and excel regardless.

You've complained how Weber was misused at forward... Streit was screwed around far more than Weber has been, and he's excelled despite that because he's an actual talent.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

I always give players until 25 to prove their worth. If they haven't proven anything by 25, time to go.

However, the difference is when you're playing under a position of strength which Montreal is when it comes to Weber. Weber is much worse at defence than Diaz so selecting a blueliner purely for defence he loses there. He also isn't any better than Kaberle at D. Okay, how about offensive production. Well, Weber ain't bad and got quite a few points for himself (20 or so?) but Kaberle is by far better than him at offensive production, handling the puck, bringing the puck into the offensive zone and in power play situations.

So Offensively:

1. Markov

2. Subban

3. Kaberle

4. Weber

Defensively:

1. Gorges

2. Markov

3. Subban

4. Diaz/Emelin

6. Kaberle

7. Weber

That's not even including Cube now in the lineup. Plus you got Tinordi, Beaulieu, St. Denis, Ellis and many other itching for a spot. Weber just doesn't fit anymore. Might as well trade him to a team that needs an offensive D and get something in return like a young goalie of his equivalent. It has little to do with player development and everything to do with handling your player pool.

[hab29RETIRED]

I always give players until 25 to prove their worth. If they haven't proven anything by 25, time to go. However, the difference is when you're playing under a position of strength which Montreal is when it comes to Weber. Weber is much worse at defence than Diaz so selecting a blueliner purely for defence he loses there. He also isn't any better than Kaberle at D. Okay, how about offensive production. Well, Weber ain't bad and got quite a few points for himself (20 or so?) but Kaberle is by far better than him at offensive production, handling the puck, bringing the puck into the offensive zone and in power play situations. So Offensively: 1. Markov 2. Subban 3. Kaberle 4. Weber Defensively: 1. Gorges 2. Markov 3. Subban 4. Diaz/Emelin 6. Kaberle 7. Weber That's not even including Cube now in the lineup. Plus you got Tinordi, Beaulieu, St. Denis, Ellis and many other itching for a spot. Weber just doesn't fit anymore. Might as well trade him to a team that needs an offensive D and get something in return like a young goalie of his equivalent. It has little to do with player development and everything to do with handling your player pool.

What you aren't factoring in is that Weber is going to cost around $1.2M tops (not sure what he is making), while Kaberle is around a $4.3M cap hit for two more years. We already have no idea about the Gomez situation. I also think Kaberle can bring a better return.

Incidentley I have no issue with moving both Weber and Kaberle. I think Weber is probably at the point where he needs a fresh start and I also think we have had too many specialty Dman lately (i.e. Gill PK only, Weber, Kaberle, PP only). I'd much rather try and get a guy who can actually can take a regular shift.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

What you aren't factoring in is that Weber is going to cost around $1.2M tops (not sure what he is making), while Kaberle is around a $4.3M cap hit for two more years. We already have no idea about the Gomez situation. I also think Kaberle can bring a better return.

People on this forum need to decide whether Kaberle has no value or Kaberle can bring a better return than a 21 year old young offensive defenceman.

[hab29RETIRED]

People on this forum need to decide whether Kaberle has no value or Kaberle can bring a better return than a 21 year old young offensive defenceman.

He's not a guy I think has much value, but given Detroit's situation with them striking out with Suter after losing both Lidstrom and Stuart, I think they may be willing to bite. The only other team who i think MAY be interested once the season gets started is Edmonton. They have got a lot of young dmen and it will largely depend on how they are doing. If guys like Schultz look like they need more seasoning, they could use a PP specialist and can probably afford the two year cap hit, before they have to re-up Nugent-Hopkins (I think Eberle and Hall are the only young guns up for a contract next year).

Other then those two teams, i really don't see anyone else who I can think of that would want Kaberle and I'm not expecting too great of a return - 2nd round pick??? Who knows with Edmonton, if they have soured on Paajarvi, maybe we can get him for Kaberle and a prospect.

Main think from the habs point of view is clearing the cap space to get a true #3/4 type of dman who can play in ALL situations and not just PP time. I'm not to worried about Markov (knock on wood), but the fear here is that what if he goes down and the need for Kaberle if he ends up going down. Kaberle only provides SOME of Markov's skill on the PP. we still need someone who can play defence. Kaberle, Weber, the cube, Diaz or anyone else like that or a combo of these players are NOT insurance against an injury to Markov.

[ForumGhost]

Weber is spare parts. He will probably be traded for a 3rd/4th rounder.

[bbp]

Weber is spare parts. He will probably be traded for a 3rd/4th rounder.

I seriously doubt he would get a 3rd. He hasn't shown anything that would put him in an nhl roster imo.

[Commandant]

There's a slight difference having a 26 or 27 year old switch positions then a 20 or 21 year old with less then a full year of minor league experience.

Maybe the concept or importance of player development is lost on you, but there is a reason, why the organization finally hired so many people in player development roles.

Player development may be important but seriously.... Weber couldn't play defence in the AHL. I watched him for two years with the Bulldogs, constantly lose board battles and constantly fail to clear the front of the net. Yeah, he's got a big slapshot... big deal, the guy is far too weak to play D and not good enough positionally to make up for it.

Here is a guy who had 8 goals in 16 games, on a first place Bulldogs club, and still managed to be a -5. Thats pretty hard to do.

The guy has shown nothing to suggest he could have been a multi time all-star and a key component of multiple Stanley Cup Champions, yet you suggest that he could have been another Rafalski. Yeah, and if we developped Corey Locke properly he could have broken Gretzky's records.

People on this forum need to decide whether Kaberle has no value or Kaberle can bring a better return than a 21 year old young offensive defenceman.

Weber will be 24 before the season starts. Lets stop this myth that he's so young with so much potential.

For Habs29 - Clear cap space for true a top 4 Defenceman? WHO? Michael Roszival and Scott Hannan are about the best names left in free agency.

[DON]

Have no fear, no new top 4 is on the way via trade, it aint happening.

I still find it hard to believe Weber wasnt traded, unless Kaberle is being shopped, whic might move Weber from the 8th to the 7th d-man slot?

Weber is better defensively than MAB, which aint saying much, but MAB is still on NHL roster, so Weber is not hopeless yet.

Diaz has similar deficiencies along the boards and front of net, but seems a bit smarter with the puck and both are very good on the PP and their shots are a lot better than Subban's, but that aint saying much.

[ForumGhost]

Diaz has similar deficiencies along the boards and front of net, but seems a bit smarter with the puck and both are very good on the PP and their shots are a lot better than Subban's, but that aint saying much.

lolwut

Are you talking about Malcolm?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Have no fear, no new top 4 is on the way via trade, it aint happening.

I still find it hard to believe Weber wasnt traded, unless Kaberle is being shopped, whic might move Weber from the 8th to the 7th d-man slot?

Weber is better defensively than MAB, which aint saying much, but MAB is still on NHL roster, so Weber is not hopeless yet.

Diaz has similar deficiencies along the boards and front of net, but seems a bit smarter with the puck and both are very good on the PP and their shots are a lot better than Subban's, but that aint saying much.

Weber 2011-12 = 8 PP points

Diaz 2011-12 = 4 PP points

I agree that stats aren't everything, but in this case I think they're fairly indicative of what these guys bring to the power play. Weber looks like his ceiling is that of a second-wave guy (and a specialist at that). Diaz does not look like PP material at all, really. (Meanwhile, Subban had 14 goals in his rookie season; wow, his shot must really suck).

Weber has made a career so far out of these rumours that he has a cannon from the point. I have no doubt that his shot looks great in practice, but the fact is he does not reliably or confidently use it, either on the PP or at other times.

Diaz won some modest respect from me as a credible, if soft, puck-mover. I can see him carving out a career as a tolerably useful, 25-point bottom-pairing defenceman who makes his living on the transition - sort of like a defensively feeble version of Gorges. I have a harder time with Weber. His whole entry ticket has been that he can shoot the damned puck. So far, he has not shown a proclivity to do this with any enthusiasm or determination. Of course, Diaz has two years on him, so maybe Weber will be comparable to Diaz in terms of puck movement in a couple of years.

The real difference to me is that Diaz siezed his opening with both hands in his rookie year, where Weber is akin to O'Bryne in the specific sense that he has failed to really grab hold of his opportunities and do anything interesting with the chances he has been repeatedly given. I'm not a believer - I get very frustrated with players who seemingly refuse to step up. But like I say, a second-wave specialist seems his likeliest end-point.

[hab29RETIRED]

Free agency is not the only option and is rarely the best option to upgrade the defence.

Player development may be important but seriously.... Weber couldn't play defence in the AHL. I watched him for two years with the Bulldogs, constantly lose board battles and constantly fail to clear the front of the net. Yeah, he's got a big slapshot... big deal, the guy is far too weak to play D and not good enough positionally to make up for it.

Here is a guy who had 8 goals in 16 games, on a first place Bulldogs club, and still managed to be a -5. Thats pretty hard to do.

The guy has shown nothing to suggest he could have been a multi time all-star and a key component of multiple Stanley Cup Champions, yet you suggest that he could have been another Rafalski. Yeah, and if we developped Corey Locke properly he could have broken Gretzky's records.

Weber will be 24 before the season starts. Lets stop this myth that he's so young with so much potential.

For Habs29 - Clear cap space for true a top 4 Defenceman? WHO? Michael Roszival and Scott Hannan are about the best names left in free agency.

[dlbalr]

Weber 2011-12 = 8 PP points

Diaz 2011-12 = 4 PP points

To be fair, Weber played over a minute more per game than Diaz on the PP. As a result, I'd expect him to have more powerplay points.

[DON]

lolwut

Are you talking about Malcolm?

Subban shooting % was 3.4%, the only lower on team was Gorges and Gomez, he cant hit the broad side of a barn and the showboating wind-up is useless. i am sure Pacioretty and Cole just dread trying to screen with him shooting over the net, or 5 feet wide.

Funny how any criticism of Subban at all, gets people all excited.

and statistically i think, the 2 Swiss were both way ahead on actually getting pucks to the net with shots.

[bbp]

Subban shooting % was 3.4%, the only lower on team was Gorges and Gomez, he cant hit the broad side of a barn and the showboating wind-up is useless. i am sure Pacioretty and Cole just dread trying to screen with him shooting over the net, or 5 feet wide.

Funny how any criticism of Subban at all, gets people all excited.

and statistically i think, the 2 Swiss were both way ahead on actually getting pucks to the net with shots.

Just a thought but Subban also is the main guy on the blue line. The one other teams are trying to stop from shooting, he doesn't get anything close to a clear look so he has to do a lot of adjusting. Since he is only in his second year the pk focusing on pk could really effect that.

[JoeLassister]

Subban shooting % was 3.4%, the only lower on team was Gorges and Gomez, he cant hit the broad side of a barn and the showboating wind-up is useless. i am sure Pacioretty and Cole just dread trying to screen with him shooting over the net, or 5 feet wide.

Funny how any criticism of Subban at all, gets people all excited.

and statistically i think, the 2 Swiss were both way ahead on actually getting pucks to the net with shots.

The real question is : Trailing by 1 with 20 seconds to go in the 3rd, who do you want to see taking that shot ? Subban or the 2 Swiss ?