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Permanent Trade Proposal Thread


dlbalr
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<p>A couple things here.

1st Kaberle had more PP points in the playoffs for the Bruins than anyone else on the team.

2nd Kaberle had more points than any other defenceman on the Bruins in the playoffs (tied with Seidenberg)

3rd Kaberles defence while not great is much, much better than MABs defence.  MAB plays the most sheltered minutes of any defenceman in the entire NHL.  Bar none.

When MAB is put on the ice by Boucher to start a shift this season, on over 75% of those shifts, the faceoff is in the offensive zone.  When his shift ends the puck is in the offensive zone 51% of the time.  

For Kaberle you are looking at 52% and 49% on the same metric (zone starts and finishes).

Basically boucher won't put bergeron on the ice unless he has an offensive zone faceoff, and even then, Bergeron's shifts often end up with a stoppage with the puck in the tampa end of the ice, where kaberle is not getting the same sheltered minutes and does not lose ground in the same proportions. Bergeron is a PP specialist who needs to be completely sheltered and can barely play even strength minutes without the coach having to find the perfect situation and opponents and teammates just to cover him up. He's a 7th D whho can shoot. Kaberle may not be a defensive stud, but defensively is fully playing on your bottom pair, and doesn't need to be coddled in the same way.

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Comparing MAB and Kaberle is not really serious. The problem with Kaberle is cap hit, and that's all there is to it. Our young core is due raises, and we're carrying the leagues worst contact with Gomez. And if we can all refrain from saying Gomez is gonzo next year, because that remains to be seen, it's not that simple.

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Zero impact?? Surely you couldn't have played any team sports in your life to make such a statement. He was part of a TEAM that won the Stanley Cup. He may not of lived up to people's expectations but there is no way of knowing how the Bruins would have done without Kaberle. They won WITH him, bottom line. I could hypothetically say if they had Lidstrom instead of Kaberle they wouldn't have beat the Habs in the first round. Perhaps the chemistry wouldn't of worked. All history will show is that particular Bruins TEAM was the best in the world at that point in time.

Players like Lidstrom don't need other players to look good. Players like Kaberle do. Kaberle's lack of success in Boston was because he is a one dimensional player. He was paired with the hardest shot in the NHL on a PP and couldn't get assists feeding Chara the puck. It's because everyone knew he was going to pass, so instead of taking away the shooting lanes from Kaberle, they took away the passing lanes. Rendered Kaberle ineffective. Kaberle is the PP quarterback, but the best PP quarterback's are the ones that are strong passers and shooters. Compare Kaberle to Markov. Kaberle you can give the shooting lane, Markov you can't, makes his passing much more effective.

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Again, I was making a comparison based on player type. Otherwise I don't think people would have understood what I meant when I called Kaberle a glass cannon. They likely would have assumed I meant Sheldon Souray because he has a hard shot and is easily breakable.

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If kaberle was as good as lidstrom and was a 33 year old UFA who was available on the open market to any team, his cap hit would be over 8 million.

You are getting Kaberle for 4.25, you get what you pay for, a 45-50 pt defenceman who is on the third pairing due to defensive warts.

There will be approximately 10-12 d who finish the season over 45 pts, so if you want that production, you pay for it.

If you look at 45+ point guys with shut down defence, just look at what shea weber is paid.

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If we had no other purpose than to make Kaberle statistically look like he's as good as a Lidstrom, we could put him on second pair defense with Gorges. The only way defensively he can look good is with a good stay at home defenseman, playing against any line other than the 1st line. Problem is you need someone to fill Gorges absence on the top line. Subban is good, but not capable of replacing what Gorges adds to the top defensive pair.

On a side note, Kaberle is looking good offensively lately. The backdoor PP goal against Buffalo looked like Markov gave him some pointers.

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<p>

If we had no other purpose than to make Kaberle statistically look like he's as good as a Lidstrom, we could put him on second pair defense with Gorges.  The only way defensively he can look good is with a good stay at home defenseman, playing against any line other than the 1st line.  Problem is you need someone to fill Gorges absence on the top line.  Subban is good, but not capable of replacing what Gorges adds to the top defensive pair.

On a side note, Kaberle is looking good offensively lately.  The backdoor PP goal against Buffalo looked like Markov gave him some pointers.

The best thing to do with Kaberle is accept who he is and put him on the third pair with Emelin next season. Give him a physical, stay at hoem partner.Gorges - SubbanMarkov - UFAKaberle - EmelinDiazUFA. Would be a b.jackman, grossman, stuart, etc..

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Am I seeing something in Emelin that I shouldn't be? I see him on the second pair next season with Subban, unless Markov doesn't regain his form.

Markov/Subban - Gorges

Markov/Subban - Emelin

Kaberle - Diaz/Tinordi/UFA

I don't see him 3rd pair weak defensively, unless I'm inadvertently comparing him to Kaberle or Weber in my mind, which makes him look better than he is. I'm really hoping Tinordi steps up, I would love to see his size replacing Gill.

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It would be really, really awesome if Tinordi was magically ready next season.

I agree that Kaberle should be with Diaz or a guy Montreal signs/trades for with grit instead of Emelin. I'd love to see Emelin with the elusive Andrei Markov.

Markov - Emelin would be great for Emelin. There are too many question marks to say anything for next year.

If Markov regain his glory, he's too good to play on 2nd pair.

If Subban can't handle 1st pair, like this year, he should be on second.

Emelin isn't ready and may never be ready for 1st pair, Gorges is better, less physical, but better defensively.

Best case scenario all-around is Markov regains his form.

Markov - Gorges, proven it works

Subban - Emelin, entertaining pair hitting everything that moves, good defensively, Subban can't handle the minutes he's getting this year

Kaberle - Diaz/Tinordi/UFA, Kaberle needs a solid defensive counterpart to really shine. Preferably someone solid defensively with a good shot to round out the PP.

One can dream.

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The issue is, how many gambles can a team afford in a cap world?

Gainey gambled that Gomez would bring some sort of value for his $7.4m - despite him not doing so in NY and despite everyone agreeing it was the worst contract in hockey along with redden.

As far as Kaberle's contribution and being a cup winner. He had zero impact on the bruins cup win. They could have had MAB and had the same result.

Why not bring Schneider gamble while we're here ?

Gomez summer 2009 and Kaberle december 2011. I think it is legit for a team to gamble once every 2 seasons...

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Why not bring Schneider gamble while we're here ?

Gomez summer 2009 and Kaberle december 2011. I think it is legit for a team to gamble once every 2 seasons...

Why is it that we are always gambling on bums no one else wants. You could afford those kind of gambles in the pre-cap world, you can't in a cap system, unless you've got an owners like the Rangers or hawks that are willing to eat bad contracts.

I also think its a stupid strategy to have one Dman that really is only effective as a penalty Killer (Gill) and then go after another dman who is only effective on the power play. This when your defensive lineup already includes two rookies and two sophmores dmen sprinkled in with a dash of Campoli - who also can't play defence to save his life.

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Am I seeing something in Emelin that I shouldn't be?  I see him on the second pair next season with Subban, unless Markov doesn't regain his form.

Markov/Subban - Gorges

Markov/Subban - Emelin

Kaberle - Diaz/Tinordi/UFA

I don't see him 3rd pair weak defensively, unless I'm inadvertently comparing him to Kaberle or Weber in my mind, which makes him look better than he is.  I'm really hoping Tinordi steps up, I would love to see his size replacing Gill.

Emelin is improving all the time, and might be a second pair guy as soon as next season, in fact I hope he is.  I just don't want to go into the season hoping he'll continue to follow the same path.  Development of players is not linear, and we've seen a ton of D have sophomore slumps.  If that happens with emelin and you are relying on him for top 4 minutes you are in a tough situation. On the flip side if you sign a stopgap top 4 d, and emelin continues to progress and pass the stop gap, then great, play emelin in the top 4 and use the stop gap beside Kaberle and you'll have an awesome defence. I also believe we need one more tough dman and I want the UFA signing to be a defensive style guy who can play 20 minutes and shut down an opponent's cycle game, and bring hitting and nasty.  I've also always believed you can't have too many good D. And if Tinordi is ready quicker than expected, you can trade the stop gap ufa or kaberle.

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Do you think any team might take a chance on Kaberle? He hasn't been as bad as I thought he would be but by that same token I am not distracted by the points. If he is paired with a really steady D-man then he can be even more valuable but that 2 more years is so hard to swallow

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Do you think any team might take a chance on Kaberle? He hasn't been as bad as I thought he would be but by that same token I am not distracted by the points. If he is paired with a really steady D-man then he can be even more valuable but that 2 more years is so hard to swallow

why hard to swallow??

i just dont get the negativity on Kaberle, all he is doing is rolling along at a 50+ point clip and is no where near as bad as a MAB or Spacek in own end. Sure a bit soft, but experianced and super wiith the puck and likely a good mentor for Diaz/Beaulieu/Subban.

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why hard to swallow??

i just dont get the negativity on Kaberle, all he is doing is rolling along at a 50+ point clip and is no where near as bad as a MAB or Spacek in own end. Sure a bit soft, but experianced and super wiith the puck and likely a good mentor for Diaz/Beaulieu/Subban.

I wouldn't mention Spacek in the same category as Kaberle or MAB defensively. Spacek is better than both, probably put together, defensively. He's no Gill, but better than both.

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I wouldn't mention Spacek in the same category as Kaberle or MAB defensively. Spacek is better than both, probably put together, defensively. He's no Gill, but better than both.

My thoughts exactly. Kaberle is almost strictly an offensive D-man. Spacek was very good in his own end and used his small frame extremely effectively. Kaberle isn't very strong but what he has going for him is a great outlet pass.

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Kaberle is not going anywhere. Listen to TSN 990 and both McKenzie and Dregger have been reporting forever that there were no takers for Kaberle except for Gauthier. He's here for the balance of his contract.

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Kaberle is not going anywhere. Listen to TSN 990 and both McKenzie and Dregger have been reporting forever that there were no takers for Kaberle except for Gauthier. He's here for the balance of his contract.

Cool, that is good news.

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Cool, that is good news.

DON, you're a glass half full type of guy, I love it. But there's a reason why nobody is interested in Kaberle. It's not because we know something that the rest of the league doesn't.
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DON, you're a glass half full type of guy, I love it. But there's a reason why nobody is interested in Kaberle. It's not because we know something that the rest of the league doesn't.

Kaberle is on a 50+ point pace, is super carrying and dishing the puck, good on the PP, makes less $ than Komisarik does just for sitting in pressbox, has a grand total of 12 minor penalties in last 2 years/so is a smart clean player, has had a relatively injury free career, just came off winning a cup, is not a whiner and said all the right (Team-First) stuff every year the Leafs were shopping him at one deadline after another and he is a + player on a shitty Habs team.

He is a bit soft and not overly physical, is the only negative i can see to pick on? But that also has its advantages.

Again, what negatives do people go by when they say he is not worth $4.25 for next 2 years? Who in the heck would replace his offense at this price.

I could care less what rest of league says.

Please, can you explain to me in your own judgement why he just sucks so bad, i cant see it in his play (which is the bottom line isnt it)??

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Kaberle is on a 50+ point pace, is super carrying and dishing the puck, good on the PP, makes less $ than Komisarik does just for sitting in pressbox, has a grand total of 12 minor penalties in last 2 years/so is a smart clean player, has had a relatively injury free career, just came off winning a cup, is not a whiner and said all the right (Team-First) stuff every year the Leafs were shopping him at one deadline after another and he is a + player on a shitty Habs team.

He is a bit soft and not overly physical, is the only negative i can see to pick on? But that also has its advantages.

Again, what negatives do people go by when they say he is not worth $4.25 for next 2 years? Who in the heck would replace his offense at this price.

I could care less what rest of league says.

Please, can you explain to me in your own judgement why he just sucks so bad, i cant see it in his play (which is the bottom line isnt it)??

Kaberle, 4.5m, good for passing out the the zone, in offensive zone and on the PP. Don't count on him defensively or you'll regret it.

Markov, 5m, good for passing out the the zone, in offensive zone and on the PP. Trustworthy defensively, can play against top forwards in the league and succeed defensively. May never regain his form.

In the right situation Kaberle is a great defenseman. The situation we're in is not that situation. On the ice last night we had 1 trustworthy defenseman. Most teams have 3 minimum, good teams have at least 4. Last night we had 3 defensemen that are weak defenders. Most team have 1 or none.

Everyone is pointing fingers at Kaberle and saying he sucks because he needs to do more than put points on the board. He is the most veteran defenseman on the ice for us right now and isn't acting like it. As a veteran he should be stepping up.

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DON, absolutely, Kaberle is an NHL player, whereas Darche could be playing in Europe next season. The reason why the rest of the league allegedly laughed at Gauthier for acquiring him is his cap hit. When you factor in the big pay raises some of our young core players are due to receive. Feel free to dismiss what others say, I often do myself. This is a trade proposal thread, and according to these insiders, any trade proposal involving Kaberle is a waste of time, because nobody is interested. If that's true, it works out well for you, because you like the player anyway. My personal opinion? I would have preferred to keep Spacek and his expiring contract, and have that money to spend this summer. I'm not all that thrilled with his play, and the occasional point he chips in. I suspect you DON have a harder shot that Kaberle does!

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