The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 5 hours ago, Habsfan89 said: I think he has made it a better team Anderson Caufield Toffoli Hoffman Dvorak Suzuki Much better talent then just Pacioretty Gallagher Subban That he got when taking over. The problem is they never look to add more depth and look at older vets replacements. When they let Markov go, we have yet to find his replacement. Now with Weber most likely gone and Price in a few years we haven't look to draft their replacements. This is what the team will be like once Price retire's, so get use to it. Their is too much two way players and not enough Playmakers especially on the D side of things. That team also had Markov and Plekanec, who was still in his prime. The arc of MB's GMing career seems to be: The "inherits a strong hand" years: 2012-2015 -inherited a strong core, added a couple of good pieces, had strong results in 2013-15 -terrible drafts The "bottom feeder" years: 2016-2019 -the core collapsed/blew up/aged out in 2016-17 -extended run of suckage -builds a respectable talent pool, but one markedly lacking in any franchise-level talent as replacements for aging Weber/Price The "spectacular patch-up job" year: 2020 -a bit like Gainey in 2010, he restructured the core aggressively in one offseason; and in this case, he managed to super-charge a run to the Finals within Weber/Price's windows The "bottom feeder years" continued -core collapses/blows/up/ages out in 2021-22 On balance, I think Gainey/Goat did better jobs of building the organization (even if Goat's terrible people-skills caused a meltdown in 2012). But they never did get the team to the Finals, so at least MB has that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan89 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 38 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: That team also had Markov and Plekanec, who was still in his prime. The arc of MB's GMing career seems to be: The "inherits a strong hand" years: 2012-2015 -inherited a strong core, added a couple of good pieces, had strong results in 2013-15 -terrible drafts The "bottom feeder" years: 2016-2019 -the core collapsed/blew up/aged out in 2016-17 -extended run of suckage -builds a respectable talent pool, but one markedly lacking in any franchise-level talent as replacements for aging Weber/Price The "spectacular patch-up job" year: 2020 -a bit like Gainey in 2010, he restructured the core aggressively in one offseason; and in this case, he managed to super-charge a run to the Finals within Weber/Price's windows The "bottom feeder years" continued -core collapses/blows/up/ages out in 2021-22 On balance, I think Gainey/Goat did better jobs of building the organization (even if Goat's terrible people-skills caused a meltdown in 2012). But they never did get the team to the Finals, so at least MB has that. I agree but Gainey did a full 5 year rebuild which in that time frame drafting Price Pacioretty Gallagher Subban Which was the core group Bergevin was given. Bergevin turned that into Anderson Suzuki Dvorak Toffoli Caufield Weber The big difference is under Gainey we made the playoffs regularly. Under Bergevin we seem to always miss the playoffs except for the last 2 years which he was basically given a playoff spot. My honest opinion the only reason Bergevin still has a job is because of the fact he's from Montreal. On any other team he would of been fired 3 years ago. This organization needs a full house cleaning in order for things to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 3 hours ago, Habsfan89 said: I agree but Gainey did a full 5 year rebuild which in that time frame drafting Price Pacioretty Gallagher Subban If we look at first-round picks only (which is how Bergevin is typically judged) Gainey's record is less impressive: 2003: Kostitsyn (10th) 2004: Chipchura (18th) 2005: Price (5th) 2006: Fischer (20th) 2007: McDonagh (12th) 2009: Leblanc (18th) And those picks average a much higher position than Bergevin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 11 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: On balance, I think Gainey/Goat did better jobs of building the organization (even if Goat's terrible people-skills caused a meltdown in 2012). But they never did get the team to the Finals, so at least MB has that. I won't comment on Gainey, but Gauthier killed the franchise to save his job. He gave picks like candy in trades and stalled the Habs' prospect pipeline. That is what MB inherited and he just started rebuilding that in the second part of his tenure 7 hours ago, tomh009 said: If we look at first-round picks only (which is how Bergevin is typically judged) Gainey's record is less impressive: 2003: Kostitsyn (10th) 2004: Chipchura (18th) 2005: Price (5th) 2006: Fischer (20th) 2007: McDonagh (12th) 2009: Leblanc (18th) And those picks average a much higher position than Bergevin. and this is also how I see Gainey's first draft pick record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan89 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 The down fall under Bergevin will be lack of development regarding young players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 10 hours ago, tomh009 said: If we look at first-round picks only (which is how Bergevin is typically judged) Gainey's record is less impressive: 2003: Kostitsyn (10th) 2004: Chipchura (18th) 2005: Price (5th) 2006: Fischer (20th) 2007: McDonagh (12th) 2009: Leblanc (18th) And those picks average a much higher position than Bergevin. That is indeed a disaster except for the home run of Price and the triple of McDonagh, but you’d have to look at the entire body of work on drafting/development, not just the first round. Price, Patches, Gally, Subban are better than any four players MB has drafted, for example (although there is hope with Caufield; and of course MB did draft Sergachev and trade him for dubious return, exactly as Bob did with McD). The real way to judge drafting/development is simply whether the team has a reliable and convincing talent pipeline to the big club. We did have that under Bob, with loads of NHLers coming up, but most of them ended up being disappointments with chequered careers (Higgins, Komi, the Kostitsyn) until the later phase, when we developed absolute studs like Patches, Subban, and Gally. We have not seen a comparable pipeline under Bergevin in terms of quantity or quality. I acknowledge, though, that the Habs’ system was generally regarded by experts as quite good as recently as last year. It just hasn’t translated to the NHL as yet. I admit to skepticism that it will do so in any high-impact way, apart from Caufield. 3 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said: I won't comment on Gainey, but Gauthier killed the franchise to save his job. He gave picks like candy in trades and stalled the Habs' prospect pipeline. That is what MB inherited and he just started rebuilding that in the second part of his tenure Well, that’s a good question. I recall Bob trading a lot of picks around 2008 because he was all-in for a Cup run in 2009. I don’t recall Goat trading picks away in excess, but my memory could be faulty. Goat was GM only for a brief period anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan89 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Gainey was good at drafting and developing players, under him the AHL team won a championship. But Bob was bad at trades and UFA signings. Bergevin is bad at drafting and developing players, but good at trades and decent at UFA signings. We just need to find a GM who's good at all those things lol. Also I do believe it's time to part ways with Timmins, don't know how the guy has lasted this long in this organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Goat traded away some second rounders for guys like Dominic Moore and looking at 2010, that clearly worked. He also traded away a second to get Mathieu Schneider and without him we wouldn't have made the 2009 playoffs, though whether or not that was the right move can be debated. I think he picked up a couple pieces for 2011 as well. That said, his biggest error was the Halak trade. He clearly picked the right goalie in sticking with Carey Price when others wanted to anoint Halak the starter. However, he should have got more for Halak given the 2010 Playoff Run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 56 minutes ago, Commandant said: Goat traded away some second rounders for guys like Dominic Moore and looking at 2010, that clearly worked. He also traded away a second to get Mathieu Schneider and without him we wouldn't have made the 2009 playoffs, though whether or not that was the right move can be debated. I think he picked up a couple pieces for 2011 as well. That said, his biggest error was the Halak trade. He clearly picked the right goalie in sticking with Carey Price when others wanted to anoint Halak the starter. However, he should have got more for Halak given the 2010 Playoff Run. I am 99% sure that it was Gainey who acquired Schneider for the abortion of a Cup run in 2009. I thought the Cammy trade was on the stupid side too - obviously the cheap garbage of sitting Squid out mid-game, but Bourque was such a frustrating player. And what happened there? There was a player rebellion against . So Goat fired Martin. But he also traded away the main instigator (Cammy). I don't get that. Pick a lane. Cunneyworth was also a disaster, but that's another story, one that probably owes as much to Molson's blundering as anything Goat said or did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan89 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 24 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: I am 99% sure that it was Gainey who acquired Schneider for the abortion of a Cup run in 2009. I thought the Cammy trade was on the stupid side too - obviously the cheap garbage of sitting Squid out mid-game, but Bourque was such a frustrating player. And what happened there? There was a player rebellion against . So Goat fired Martin. But he also traded away the main instigator (Cammy). I don't get that. Pick a lane. Cunneyworth was also a disaster, but that's another story, one that probably owes as much to Molson's blundering as anything Goat said or did. Cammy trade wasn't Gainey, it was Gauthier and cunneyworth was also gauthier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 16 hours ago, tomh009 said: If we look at first-round picks only (which is how Bergevin is typically judged) Gainey's record is less impressive: 2003: Kostitsyn (10th) 2004: Chipchura (18th) 2005: Price (5th) 2006: Fischer (20th) 2007: McDonagh (12th) 2009: Leblanc (18th) And those picks average a much higher position than Bergevin. How is McDonough less impressive - it was stupidity to trade him, but he was a great pick. I see a lot more top pairing dmen and top six players drafted under Gainey, than under MB. Hell, even AK46 was a better pick (albeit a lousy pick given the number of future HOF drafted that year), than most MB picks, and outperformed KK’s first three NHL seasons. MB has never had a 2007 type of draft - McDonough, Maxpac, and Subban, with a depth player like Weber selected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Here is the track record of that genius, Pierre Gauthier... 2009-2010 trades: Halak traded for Lars Eller and Ian Schultz Aaron Palusha traded for D'Agostini Ian Schultz S. Kostitsyn traded for Dustn Boyd and #117 draft pick Laraque released draft: 1st #22 Jarred Tinordi 2nd #32 traded for Lang (2008) 3rd #87 traded for Scheneider (2009) 4th #113 Mark MacMillan 4th #117 Morgan Ellis 5th #147 Brendan Gallagher 7th #207 John Westin 2010-2011 trades: Auld (signed as UFA) Dominic Moore (lost to UFA) James Wisniewski traded for #50 draft pick and (lost to UFA) Paul Mara (lost to UFA alond qith 5th round pick in 2012 given to get him) Sopel & Dawes traded for Emelin (signed from KHL) Diaz (taken EUFA) Ramo (taken for C.Desjardins) Bournival (taken for O'Byrne) Lapierre traded for Festeringa nd 5th'12 that became Paul >Mara draft: 1st #17 Nathan Beaulieu 2nd #47 traded for Moore 2nd #50 traded for Wisniewski 3rd #77 traded for Didier (#97) & Archambault (4th rnd) 4th #97 Josiah Didier (#97'11) 4th #107 traded for Sopel & Dawes 4th #112 received Magnus Nygren for Chipchura in trade 5th #137 Darren Dietz 6th #167 Daniel Pribyl 7th #197 Colin Sullivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 8 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said: I won't comment on Gainey, but Gauthier killed the franchise to save his job. He gave picks like candy in trades and stalled the Habs' prospect pipeline. That is what MB inherited and he just started rebuilding that in the second part of his tenure and this is also how I see Gainey's first draft pick record. So MB wasn’t gifted young players like Price, Maxpac, Subban, Gallagher, along with veterans like Pleks, Markov, Desharnais, gionta Gorges, and Emelin? There were others like Bealieau, who I wasn’t a fan of, but has been better than most dmen drafted under MB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 8 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said: I won't comment on Gainey, but Gauthier killed the franchise to save his job. He gave picks like candy in trades and stalled the Habs' prospect pipeline. That is what MB inherited and he just started rebuilding that in the second part of his tenure and this is also how I see Gainey's first draft pick record. We’re is maxpac on your list? He was a late first rounder - again, better than any late first rounder drafted by MB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 16 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said: We’re is maxpac on your list? He was a late first rounder - again, better than any late first rounder drafted by MB. https://www.prosportstransactions.com/hockey/Search/SearchResults.php?Player=&Team=canadiens&BeginDate=2010-02-08&EndDate=2012-03-29&PlayerMovementChkBx=yes&submit=Search He resigned him to a 2-yr contract but didn't draft him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 55 minutes ago, Habsfan89 said: Cammy trade wasn't Gainey, it was Gauthier and cunneyworth was also gauthier Yes, I know. I was saying the Schneider trade was Bob's work. I thought Goat came in after the summer of 2010. But both alfredoh and Commandant have him starting in '09, so my recollection may be faulty on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted October 21, 2021 Author Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) Interesting speculation ... Martin Lemay (host on 91.9 Sports) apparently wondered on-air if an issue with extending Bergevin may be that Habs are for sale ... I could not believe that it wouldn't leak out somewhere (i.e., as a BIG story in its own right) if that were true ... but there would be some logic in not burdening new owners with a GM signed for multiple (3/4/5) years. Edited October 21, 2021 by GHT120 Clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Yes, I know. I was saying the Schneider trade was Bob's work. I thought Goat came in after the summer of 2010. But both alfredoh and Commandant have him starting in '09, so my recollection may be faulty on this. You are correct on the Schneider trade. Gauthier came in midway through the 09-10 season, he definitely handled the 2010 trade deadline which was the Moore acquisition. I'm not sure if MAB was Gainey or Gauthier though. Either way, Gauthier was Gaineys top advisor so he was somewhat involved. The Halak and Cammalleri trades are clearly his downfall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted October 21, 2021 Author Share Posted October 21, 2021 As for the discussion of Gainey versus GOAT trades ... if I recall correctly there was some delegation by Gainey to GOAT after Bob's daughter perished in an sailing accident ... so some trades in Gainey's tenure may have been made, likely with BG's permission, by GOAT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 the complete list of trades is in the link I shared Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said: We’re is maxpac on your list? He was a late first rounder - again, better than any late first rounder drafted by MB. I meant the list of players drafted by Gainey in the 1st round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 23 hours ago, Habsfan89 said: Gainey was good at drafting and developing players, under him the AHL team won a championship. But Bob was bad at trades and UFA signings. Bergevin is bad at drafting and developing players, but good at trades and decent at UFA signings. This is a pretty shrewd generalization, actually. On Bergevin, I’ve said all along that the organization has nobody - nobody - on the level of Price or Weber in the system and that once those guys go, any hope of contention seems to be forlorn. I’ll credit Bergy for engineering a legit Cup run within the vanishing windows of those two guys. But now the organization is facing what Matthew Arnold called “the naked shingles of the world:” its nearly total dearth of truly elite-level talent. Suzuki is not on the Price/Weber level and may never become that. Caufield, unlikely. He’s had a decade to prepare for the fading of Price and our #1 d-man. And, nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 Another 4 or 5 losses in a row and we may see him punted anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 1 hour ago, DON said: Another 4 or 5 losses in a row and we may see him punted anyways. They play Detroit tomorrow night, no way they can lose that one or can they? It's still early but it might be one of those years where everything goes wrong. Might as well make the best of it and do a complete rebuild, make a bunch of deadline trades for draft picks and think about 3-5 years down the road with a new core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 14 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: They play Detroit tomorrow night, no way they can lose that one or can they? You do remember Montreal's record against a tanking Detroit team in 2019-20, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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