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4 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

3 each last year

 

(Aho, Teravainen, Hakanpaa) 

 

Though Hakanpaa only player 15/56 games.

And Leskinen also dressed a few times for the Habs so you could say four. Anyway, I only counted ones that played a majority of the games.

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58 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

And Leskinen also dressed a few times for the Habs so you could say four. Anyway, I only counted ones that played a majority of the games.

It really doesn’t matter how many games they played in this context (though Leskinen did only play 1). It matters what language they speak, and what nation they represent.

 

I am not going to say that Kotkaniemi decided to join the Hurricanes because of their Finnish contingent considering we have the likes of Armia and Lehkonen, and Koivu even hyped his future as a Hab. With that being said, I can entirely envision Carolina feeling as thought he would be a good fit considering they have a couple of

very strong Finnish players on their squad who could perhaps inspire KK to play up to his perceived potential.

 

If one wants to flip that train of thought and apply it to Kotkaniemi, well that makes a lot of sense as well, though that was not the original comment anyway. 
 

habs29 simply pointed out that Carolina having a few strong Finnish players on their squad was part of a perfect storm which led up to Kotkaniemi ending up with Carolina, and I tend to agree. The fact the Habs have Finnish players on their squad is irrelevant, especially when comparing them to Aho, and Teravainen.

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6 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I'm pretty sure that the main reason KK signed the offer sheet was $6 million. 🙄 Just saying

 

Yep, that was the main reason. The numbers of Finns on Carolina might have provided a certain comfort level for KK but it was all about the money. 

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It’s more from Carolina’s perspective. KK isn’t worth 6 million. One has to justify it in some type of manner from Carolina’s perspective. Were they trolling the Habs? Or did they see a potential fit due to the skilled Finnish players on their team? Perhaps they overrate him for the same reason.

 

It’s true that there could be a thousand reasons why Carolina did what they did but it was indeed a perfect storm that caused this because this was a relatively unique situation that hasn’t been successful since Penner in the early 2000s. 
 

Sure, KK signed because of the 6 million. The simple open ended question is why was he offered 6 million? 

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5 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

All of this might have been avoided if MB had made a SERIOUS offer sheet move on Aho. Stupidity has consequences, unfortunately for the Habs.

 

For the millionth time, how was it stupid if the player signed it?

 

Do you think if it was such a joke of an offer that they would still be this petty about it after so long?

 

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31 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

ISure, KK signed because of the 6 million. The simple open ended question is why was he offered 6 million? 

 

Only Don Waddell and the owner of the Hurricanes know the answer to that question. We can only speculate. In my opinion revenge/publicity played a big role in this but that is just my opinion. Carolina certainly got a lot of publicity out of it. 

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31 minutes ago, illWill said:

 

For the millionth time, how was it stupid if the player signed it?

 

Do you think if it was such a joke of an offer that they would still be this petty about it after so long?

 

 

I agree. If they had offered more for Aho such that Carolina could not match then likely the following would have happened:

 

1) Montreal would be out 4 X 1st round picks depending on how high the offer was (ie. over 10.2 million, 2 x 1st round picks if under)

2) Carolina would be even more ticked off and would have more money to throw at any of Montreal RFA's if they didn't match

 

I don't blame MB for trying.  It didn't work out. 

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4 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

It really doesn’t matter how many games they played in this context (though Leskinen did only play 1). It matters what language they speak, and what nation they represent.

 

I am not going to say that Kotkaniemi decided to join the Hurricanes because of their Finnish contingent considering we have the likes of Armia and Lehkonen, and Koivu even hyped his future as a Hab. With that being said, I can entirely envision Carolina feeling as thought he would be a good fit considering they have a couple of

very strong Finnish players on their squad who could perhaps inspire KK to play up to his perceived potential.

 

If one wants to flip that train of thought and apply it to Kotkaniemi, well that makes a lot of sense as well, though that was not the original comment anyway. 
 

habs29 simply pointed out that Carolina having a few strong Finnish players on their squad was part of a perfect storm which led up to Kotkaniemi ending up with Carolina, and I tend to agree. The fact the Habs have Finnish players on their squad is irrelevant, especially when comparing them to Aho, and Teravainen.

By having more Finnish players, I was also referring to the Canes Mgmt, probably had seen KK more and probably had more awareness of him from scouting other Finnish players.

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1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I agree. If they had offered more for Aho such that Carolina could not match then likely the following would have happened:

 

1) Montreal would be out 4 X 1st round picks depending on how high the offer was (ie. over 10.2 million, 2 x 1st round picks if under)

2) Carolina would be even more ticked off and would have more money to throw at any of Montreal RFA's if they didn't match

 

I don't blame MB for trying.  It didn't work out. 

Given our drafting record, I’d gladly have given up four 1st four rounders for Aho.

 

it want really an offer worth making when EVERYONE who covers the sport said that Carolina would match, because the offer wasn’t high enough. You aren’t going to be able to have a successful RFA offer sheet work, unless:

1) the salary is high enough to make the other team hesitate (which it clearly wasn’t)

2) the return for not matching is too low for the team letting the player go for, which. For a player of Aho’s calibre, there was no way they were going to go for such a low return.

3) salary is higher than what the players team is offering him

 

carolina succeeded in the two most important factors for a successful offer sheet, MB failed miserably on both.


of course the player signed, he is getting more money than what he was offered. In KK’s case, he’d probably be. In a stronger position if Montreal matched. With Carolina, he probably worked out a lower long term number, whereas in Montreal, he could just wait for a qualifying offer or become a free agent. 
 

as much as I hate the Canes. It was a brilliantly executed offer sheet. While Bergevin’a was a waste of time.

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20 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Given our drafting record, I’d gladly have given up four 1st four rounders for Aho.

 

it want really an offer worth making when EVERYONE who covers the sport said that Carolina would match, because the offer wasn’t high enough. You aren’t going to be able to have a successful RFA offer sheet work, unless:

1) the salary is high enough to make the other team hesitate (which it clearly wasn’t)

2) the return for not matching is too low for the team letting the player go for, which. For a player of Aho’s calibre, there was no way they were going to go for such a low return.

3) salary is higher than what the players team is offering him

 

carolina succeeded in the two most important factors for a successful offer sheet, MB failed miserably on both.


of course the player signed, he is getting more money than what he was offered. In KK’s case, he’d probably be. In a stronger position if Montreal matched. With Carolina, he probably worked out a lower long term number, whereas in Montreal, he could just wait for a qualifying offer or become a free agent. 
 

as much as I hate the Canes. It was a brilliantly executed offer sheet. While Bergevin’a was a waste of time.

 

Not sure paying  if paying KK 6.1 million in a salary cap world is brilliant or not. Time will tell.  

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1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Not sure paying  if paying KK 6.1 million in a salary cap world is brilliant or not. Time will tell.  

Not saying it was brilliant to get KK, or in thinking KK will be an elite player. What was brilliant was the way they structured the offer sheet, to ensure it would be successful, for a player they evaluate to become an elite player. If they actually sign him to a longer extension where his Avg salary is considerably less than $6m, and he produces better than your average 18 to 24th overall pick range, than I think hey still benefit even if KK doesn’t live up to his 3rd overall draft rating - AND they get to screw the habs over.

 

back in July, would you have been happy if MB traded KK and a 2nd for Dvorak, or even if they traded KK straight up for Dvorak?  I know I sure the hell wouldnt.

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18 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Not saying it was brilliant to get KK, or in thinking KK will be an elite player. What was brilliant was the way they structured the offer sheet, to ensure it would be successful, for a player they evaluate to become an elite player. If they actually sign him to a longer extension where his Avg salary is considerably less than $6m, and he produces better than your average 18 to 24th overall pick range, than I think hey still benefit even if KK doesn’t live up to his 3rd overall draft rating - AND they get to screw the habs over.

 

back in July, would you have been happy if MB traded KK and a 2nd for Dvorak, or even if they traded KK straight up for Dvorak?  I know I sure the hell wouldnt.

 

I would not have been happy with that trade not knowing what kind of player KK would turn out to be.  We still don't know. They structured the offer sheet to ensure it wouldn't be matched by over paying.  Where I give Carolina credit in the offer sheet is making the over payment just for 1 year. It will be interesting to see what kind of extension he gets should he have a poor season. 

 

Montreal's BIG mistake in this is keeping KK as an 18 year old. If they hadn't done that then this mess wouldn't have happened. Hopefully they learned from that. 

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19 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I would not have been happy with that trade not knowing what kind of player KK would turn out to be.  We still don't know. They structured the offer sheet to ensure it wouldn't be matched by over paying.  Where I give Carolina credit in the offer sheet is making the over payment just for 1 year. It will be interesting to see what kind of extension he gets should he have a poor season. 

 

Montreal's BIG mistake in this is keeping KK as an 18 year old. If they hadn't done that then this mess wouldn't have happened. Hopefully they learned from that. 

Totally agree on keeping him as an 18 year old. Should have let him play another year in Europe, and than seeing if he needed extra time in the minors. Patterson is a much better and more dynamic player, and I think he benefited by not trying for o make the jump early.

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16 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Only Don Waddell and the owner of the Hurricanes know the answer to that question. We can only speculate. In my opinion revenge/publicity played a big role in this but that is just my opinion. Carolina certainly got a lot of publicity out of it. 


 


Exactly. That’s what we are doing here; we are speculating. 
 

When you put both speculations side by side which one sounds more “professional”.

 

1) Canes wanted revenge

2) Canes saw a fit 

 

Of course #2 does not exactly state that it was because he was Finnish but it could certainly a subcategory on the subject.

 

Anyway, it’s a very small detail that has been blown out of proportion on this page but personally I think it’s almost obvious that the organization would have thought Ago and Teravainen could have some type of positive impact on KK. 
 

Of course this could be then said about any team and any ethnicity so it is indeed too broad of a statement.
 

Why do I think it applies here? Because Kotkaniemi is not in the ball park of being worth 6 million, but the Canes obviously think there is some untapped potential there.

 

Of course the Canes did want revenge on the Habs as well in the end, but that was the initial statement that led to this debate.... that it was a “perfect storm” with multiple factors leading to the outcome.

 

15 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

By having more Finnish players, I was also referring to the Canes Mgmt, probably had seen KK more and probably had more awareness of him from scouting other Finnish players.

 

Yes, that’s what I was saying as well. We are mainly talking about Carolina management’s perspective. With that being said, it’s not that bold of a statement to say that Kotkaniemi may have relished the idea of playing with Aho and Teravainen as well. In this case, I am not stating that this was his main reason for signing. Other people are simply choosing to interpret things that way. 

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Regarding the Aho offer sheet, Carolina matched without hesitation, and Habs29 is right that it was widely expected they would. Therefore, it was not a serious offer sheet. It was either incompetent, based on a high hope that Carolina’s ownership was cash-strapped, or (more likely IMHO) a PR play to distract from the suckage the Habs were putting out on the ice and present the GM as proactive and dynamic despite icing a garbage squad. Whatever the motivation, it was a laughable failure.

 

NHL culture frowns severely upon offer sheets. Any GM who extends one has to know that he is making himself a target of retaliation.

 

Therefore, if you extend an offer sheet, it should be under conditions along these lines:

 

1. Identify a team that is unlikely to match because of a cap crunch or financing crisis.

2. Make an offer that is sufficiently high that it is painful to match.

3. Know that you are making yourself a target of retaliation. Therefore, the player you’re getting needs to be better than any young guy in your organization, because you stand to lose one of those young guys as a result of your offer.

 

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what was teh retaliation for these other offer sheets? I do not remember these other ones become a permanent feud

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NHL_players_who_have_signed_offer_sheets

 

Ryan Kesler              Sept 12, 2006        was with: Vancouver Canucks, offer from : Philadelphia Flyers     Matched
Thomas Vanek         July 6, 2007          was with: Buffalo Sabres            offer from : Edmonton Oilers         Matched   
Dustin Penner          July 26, 2007        was with: Anaheim Ducks          offer from : Edmonton Oilers         Not Matched
David Backes           July 1, 2008           was with: St. Louis Blues           offer from : Vancouver Canucks     Matched  
Steve Bernier           July 8, 2008           was with: Vancouver Canucks  offer from : St. Louis Blues             Matched
Niklas Hjalmarsson  July 9, 2010           was with: Chicago Blackhawks offer from : San Jose Sharks          Matched    

Shea Weber             July 18, 2012          was with: Nashville Predators    offer from : Philadelphia Flyers     Matched
Ryan O'Reilly            February 28, 2013 was with: Colorado Avalanche   offer from : Calgary Flames          Matched    

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11 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

what was teh retaliation for these other offer sheets? I do not remember these other ones become a permanent feud

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NHL_players_who_have_signed_offer_sheets

 

Ryan Kesler              Sept 12, 2006        was with: Vancouver Canucks, offer from : Philadelphia Flyers     Matched
Thomas Vanek         July 6, 2007          was with: Buffalo Sabres            offer from : Edmonton Oilers         Matched   
Dustin Penner          July 26, 2007        was with: Anaheim Ducks          offer from : Edmonton Oilers         Not Matched
David Backes           July 1, 2008           was with: St. Louis Blues           offer from : Vancouver Canucks     Matched  
Steve Bernier           July 8, 2008           was with: Vancouver Canucks  offer from : St. Louis Blues             Matched
Niklas Hjalmarsson  July 9, 2010           was with: Chicago Blackhawks offer from : San Jose Sharks          Matched    

Shea Weber             July 18, 2012          was with: Nashville Predators    offer from : Philadelphia Flyers     Matched
Ryan O'Reilly            February 28, 2013 was with: Colorado Avalanche   offer from : Calgary Flames          Matched    

First it depemds, on how vindictive trams are, opportunity (having cap room and picks to do so. There has to be a fit for retaliation.  After Vancouver offer sheeted Backes, St. Louis did retaliate a couple years later with Bernier.  

 

nashville was in no position to retaliate, and Calgary not almost screwed themselves, they also did the Avs a favour, since they were at a stalemate with O’Reilly. If the Avs didn’t match, the Flames would have lost their 1st, and O’Reilly would have been ineligible to sign with another team, since he had played in Europe.


min the case of the Canes, they had the cap room, draft picks required, and money to overpay, to go along with a motivated owner.

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2 hours ago, illWill said:

To summarize:

 

Bergevin is a moron for his offer sheet that was laughably too low and Waddell is a genius for his offer sheet that was laughably too high. Got it. 

 

Only the first proposition is correct

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2 hours ago, illWill said:

To summarize:

 

Bergevin is a moron for his offer sheet that was laughably too low and Waddell is a genius for his offer sheet that was laughably too high. Got it. 

Agree. The amount of trolling that the canes PR approved, is totally classless. Yes. MB gambled low on Aho.

Yes. Waddell saw a chance for revenge and executed it well. That's where it should have ended. The PR campaign is a bit ridiculous.  Classless organization 

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19 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

Agree. The amount of trolling that the canes PR approved, is totally classless. Yes. MB gambled low on Aho.

Yes. Waddell saw a chance for revenge and executed it well. That's where it should have ended. The PR campaign is a bit ridiculous.  Classless organization 

My gut still tells me that the "hockey side" of the organization was not on board with the "$20 signing bonus" or the other classless crap that Dundon has tasked the organization with doing.

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I think the Canes offer sheet was a mistake.  If KK signs long term for under 4 million I'll change my mind (provided he lives up to something approaching that).  If he doesn't, they have a player expecting a 6 million dollar qualifying offer and hence who cannot be traded.  I don't see any reason why KK won't wait for them to make him a qualifying offer or leave as a free agent.

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Peter Puck said:

I think the Canes offer sheet was a mistake.  If KK signs long term for under 4 million I'll change my mind (provided he lives up to something approaching that).  If he doesn't, they have a player expecting a 6 million dollar qualifying offer and hence who cannot be traded.  I don't see any reason why KK won't wait for them to make him a qualifying offer or leave as a free agent.

Because, IMO, the extension was verbally agreed to as a condition to the BlowHards submitting the one year offer sheet

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