Canadiens @ Avalanche | Slaughter Thread

[JoeLassister]

Your avatar

héhé that was after the Flames-Habs game. was pissed.

[Quebecois]

Dandy has been great since coming back

he was great pre-injury too i thought.

[Trizzak]

We've been seeing this play a lot lately: Kovalev gains the zone, gets enough of a step on a D man to go around the net, but then has to keep going as he has no more options, and eventually loses the puck in a battle against two of their guys somewhere just above the faceoff circle.

On one hand, how many times will Kovalev do this until he realizes it doesn't work? It's failed enough games in a row you'd think he'd see the pattern.

On the other hand, does any player feel like getting open or giving Alex some puck support? I mean really, everyone just stops skating and watches him, except the other team.

Something has to change there.

Edited February 14, 2009 by Trizzak

[sbhatt]

We've been seeing this play a lot lately: Kovalev gains the zone, gets enough of a step on a D man to go around the net, but then has to keep going as he has no more options, and eventually loses the puck in a battle against two of their guys somewhere just above the faceoff circle.

On one hand, how many times will Kovalev do this until he realizes it doesn't work? It's failed enough games in a row you'd think he'd see the pattern.

On the other hand, does any player feel like getting open or giving Alex some puck support? I mean really, everyone just stops skating and watches him, except the other team.

Something has to change there.

I've noticed this as well...you'd think someone would cut hard into the slot so Kovy would have someone to pass to. Can hardly blame Kovy...he's going on the instinct that someone will be cutting to the net when he does that, seeing as how he's been able to expect that from his teammates since the age of 8. I'm sure he's never played with guys who pretty much refuse to do it under any circumstances before.

[BCHabnut]

I've noticed this as well...you'd think someone would cut hard into the slot so Kovy would have someone to pass to. Can hardly blame Kovy...he's going on the instinct that someone will be cutting to the net when he does that, seeing as how he's been able to expect that from his teammates since the age of 8. I'm sure he's never played with guys who pretty much refuse to do it under any circumstances before.

That's exactly what Lafleur used to do if he didn't have a shot. The difference is he had Lemaire or Shutt to pass to. That play won the 1979 stanley cup.

Edited February 14, 2009 by BCHabnut

[BCHabnut]

So, who's in nets Sunday? Do you play the hot hand, or give Price his game in his hometown? To be fair, it's not really his home town. Home is a tiny village in Chilcotin country west of Williams Lake.

It's a tough decision, but I would play Halak. It's for the better of the team. The last time he made a decision for his personal life, Price may have hurt his team. I believe he rushed back to play in the allstar game.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Halak was amazing but we were lucky to win.

Too many quality scoring chances given up by poor defensive play. We can't expect Halak or Price to go through this game after game.

I'm for the win but we still have a lot of work to do.

[huzer]

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one that was a little confused to hear the PA say that S Kost was the 1st star. Definitely would have made it Halak, and given Dandy a star too. During that icing parade in the 2nd, Dandy was pissed no interference was called when he tried to skate in to negate on icing call. Next play....here comes the puck, and Dandy was FLYING down the boards to chase it down.

Was right on top of the Tucker/Brisebois fight, that was fun. And right after my wife and I got the "Go Habs Go" chant going in our end of the rink, A Kost scored! It was funny, the dude sitting in front of me turned around and said "well, your chant worked". Haha. A few more Habs jerseys than I've noticed at the other 2 games I've been to here.

[Fanpuck33]

So, who's in nets Sunday? Do you play the hot hand, or give Price his game in his hometown? To be fair, it's not really his home town. Home is a tiny village in Chilcotin country west of Williams Lake.

It's a tough decision, but I would play Halak. It's for the better of the team. The last time he made a decision for his personal life, Price may have hurt his team. I believe he rushed back to play in the allstar game.

No, it's a very easy decision. If Halak doesn't start tomorrow, then I'm jumping on the fire Carbo bandwagon. Jaro just made 46 saves and stole them a win. You don't bench a guy after a game like that.

I can't believe SK got first star. I thought for sure it had to be a mistake. More proof that in-arena staff shouldn't be the ones to determine 3 stars. They gotta find a more objective system. Home teams get too much love and they just mess with away team.

[ForumGhost]

On RDS, it went Halak, then Breezer, then Leopold.

[huzer]

I can't believe SK got first star. I thought for sure it had to be a mistake. More proof that in-arena staff shouldn't be the ones to determine 3 stars. They gotta find a more objective system. Home teams get too much love and they just mess with away team.

My only guess is they meant Andrei, since he scored the game winner. Regardless, neither of the brothers had what I would call a good game, by any stretch of the imagination. I felt bad, I told my wife before the game "watch how 27 stickhandles"...and he didn't do a damn thing. Didn't even do a patented dangle/giveaway. Even when he's bad, he's usually good for one mini-oooh moment.

Weird stat of the game...I don't know if I've ever been to a game where 3 sticks left the rink (2 broken, and Hejduk's entire stick flipping up and out at the other end of the rink).

I thought that when Breezy stood up for Halak and took on Tucker, that the Habs might finally play with a little passion. But nooo.

[Easy Ryder]

It's just an idea like that but why not have Kovalev play between blue and middle ice

in defense mode.

That would stop 2 D pressure on all the time and keep at leat one defense looking behind

him to see where Kovy is positionned to block a pass or simplu cover him where he is. That

leaves a 4-4 defense situation. And a offensive weapon being used.

3-4 forwards have the speed and ability to do that but none has the reputation of Kovy,

maybe Andrei Kost can be on that kind of strategy too. Anyway they both stinks in defensive coverage.

That is how Guy Lafleur scored most of his goals. Unitl Lemaire came and make him play in a defensive system.

Most of the time Guy was getting a pass near the boards between blue and red line and was flying to the net. The other team could never put continuous pressure on defense because they were afraid

of of Laflleur and Shutt could make them pay for not paying attention to them.

Comments ?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

It's just an idea like that but why not have Kovalev play between blue and middle ice

in defense mode.

That would stop 2 D pressure on all the time and keep at leat one defense looking behind

him to see where Kovy is positionned to block a pass or simplu cover him where he is. That

leaves a 4-4 defense situation. And a offensive weapon being used.

3-4 forwards have the speed and ability to do that but none has the reputation of Kovy,

maybe Andrei Kost can be on that kind of strategy too. Anyway they both stinks in defensive coverage.

That is how Guy Lafleur scored most of his goals. Unitl Lemaire came and make him play in a defensive system.

Most of the time Guy was getting a pass near the boards between blue and red line and was flying to the net. The other team could never put continuous pressure on defense because they were afraid

of of Laflleur and Shutt could make them pay for not paying attention to them.

Comments ?

Interesting and well thought-out. But one problem - Kovalev is not Guy Lafleur.

I agree with the analysis recently put forward by the Hockey News. Kovy is best suited as part of a second wave attack, a supplemental weapon rather than the go-to guy on offence. Last year may have deluded some people, but if you look at his career he's always been that kind of player. This is why we should look at trading him before we lose him for nothing.

Anyway.

Horrible game. What we saw there was a team that got a 2-0 lead and then just tried desperately not to lose. Hence, icing after icing - rather than have the confidence to actually make plays and organize a rush, for instance. I've never seen anything quite like that. And come on, 48 shots against, against a piece-of-crap roster like Colorado??

The only hope is that this result relaxes the team a bit. If Halak can follow up with another strong performance against the Canuckleheads - who are semi-desperate themselves and whom I fully expect to school the Habs - maybe the team can actually begin to recover its belief in its ability to win games.

But Jesus, it's a sad state of affairs.

Lastly: kudos to Brisebois and Dandeneault, two of our most-maligned players, for showing up to play like winners when the entire team has forgotten how to do it. If anyone doubts that Breezer bleeds blue-blanc-et-rouge his attempt to fight Tucker and stand up for Halak, along with his generally gutsy performance when the team needed him most, should disabuse them. And Dandy was never as bad as some of his knockers would have us believe.

Edited February 14, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[BTH]

I actually think Kovy's decent at playing defense (he's used on the PK actually) but I like the idea. Maybe it would be more useful with Higgins who can only score on breakaways.

[JoeLassister]

My only guess is they meant Andrei, since he scored the game winner. Regardless, neither of the brothers had what I would call a good game, by any stretch of the imagination. I felt bad, I told my wife before the game "watch how 27 stickhandles"...and he didn't do a damn thing. Didn't even do a patented dangle/giveaway. Even when he's bad, he's usually good for one mini-oooh moment.

Weird stat of the game...I don't know if I've ever been to a game where 3 sticks left the rink (2 broken, and Hejduk's entire stick flipping up and out at the other end of the rink).

I thought that when Breezy stood up for Halak and took on Tucker, that the Habs might finally play with a little passion. But nooo.

Yeah I noticed too. The 2 broken sticks flew out at the exact same place near the blue line.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Boone offers a fine analysis:

http://habsinsideout.com/boone/15528

Two points of note:

"Props to the Captain and props to one of his new linemates. Tom the Bomb pressured the Colorado defence for loose pucks and had four shots on goal, the last and most accurate of which was a 180-footer from his knees.

As to the third member of the line, Pierre McGuire, between the benches for TSN, quoted the Colorado players as saying "Kovalev doesn't want to go tonight." They couldn't have found the Artiste's indifference and non-involvement surprising if they read scouting reports."

I think teams have been making this observation about Kovalev for most of this season. It's likely only a surprise to teams in the west who haven't paid attention.

Finally, there's this nugget:

"Look, I'm not a Carbo basher. He was a great player and he's a very intelligent man who's learning to be a very good coach. Timeout on one of the Canadiens' 458 icings was a good call.

But line-juggling in mid-February is absurd. And when Patrice Brisebois is your steadiest defenceman ...

The team has issues that were not resolved last night.

After 56 games, I can't discern Carbo's system and maybe some players share my confusion. Either that, or they're just not into playing the way their coach wants them to.

If the latter is the case, malcontents should be moved before they ruin the kids."

Like I keep saying: any other team, Carbo would have been out the door by now. Unless the problem is the second scenario. Note that both statements boil down to the same signal - move Kovalev.

Edited February 14, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Fanpuck33]

Like I keep saying: any other team, Carbo would have been out the door by now. Unless the problem is the second scenario. Note that both statements boil down to the same signal - move Kovalev.

How many teams in a playoff spot fire their coach during the season?

[JoeLassister]

How many teams in a playoff spot fire their coach during the season?

NEW JERSEY !!!!

[Sir_Boagalott]

Is there a replay of Kosto's goal?

The TSN highlights didnt show it.

[Athlétique.Canadien]

I didn't really pay attention to this game. The team has to earn my fanship back. Obviously it didn't happen last night. Except for Halak.

Fix it soon please. We need to close out the next 5 games with some good honest points!

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

How many teams in a playoff spot fire their coach during the season?

If your team is surrendering 40+ shots practically every night, on an endless losing streak and playing in complete disarray in its own end, and impotently on offence, despite having a fairly high talent level, then I'm sorry, but the coach *is* the logical target.

Now I understand the argument that 'this team' has already gotten Julien and Therrien fired, so the problem is clearly with the players, not the coach. Without denying that the players may be the essential problem, I would make the following points:

1. In what sense is the 'core' is the same now as it was under Therrien or Julien? Koivu, Markov, and Kovalev, OK. But isn't the rest of club substantially different? So does it even make sense to talk in terms of seamless continuity between now and then? Some have even mentioned Vigneault in this connection. But surely there's been massive personnel turnaround since then. Arguably this is a different team.

2. Therrien, Julien, and Carbo were all rookie NHL coaches. That may be relevant in contemplating their firing from Montreal. That the first two have gone on to impressive success doesn't mean that their current success doesn't owe to lessons learned on their first job (and by the way, don't try to tell me that Therrien was a good coach for us. Julien certainly was, but he also had Higgins on the 4th line and Komi as a 6th defenceman - in short, he wasn't developing the young players the way he needed to). Given the learning curve involved, it's hardly surprising these guys got fired; and maybe the lesson is, hire a seasoned coach if you are serious about winning in Montreal?

3. Even the best coaches get tuned out eventually. It happened to Pat Burns here in 1992.. It happened to Gainey in Dallas. It even happened, if I remember right, to Scotty Bowman on Buffalo. The list goes on. Whatever Carbo's merits, it's possible he's simply lost the team. If so, you can fume about it all you like, but there is nothing to be gained in clinging to a coach when the room has quit on him.

Now I'm actually not trying to argue that Carbo must be fired. I tend to waver on the point. But the current state of the Habs' game is completely unacceptable and looks disturbingly like the game of a team that is either not fundamentally sound in terms of systems and roles (coaching) or else has tuned out the coach (coaching). It's not the losing - it's losing in total confusion, panic, and disarray that leads to this conclusion.

I think that, in a perfect world, I would trade Kovalev first, since he will not be re-signed in any case, and see how that affects the chemistry. If that shock treatment doesn't work, surely Carbo ought to be next?

[BTH]

Julien was already in Montreal when Gainey came in so he was the logical target when the endless losing streak started. But Gainey brought Carbo in as his protégé and I'm sure he had the intention of grooming him for at least 3 seasons until even considering firing him. After last season's success, and us currently being 4th in the East, there's no real reason for Gainey to consider tossing his student because of a slump. The two of them are very close, I'm sure plenty of his decisions have been made with Gainey's help. Combine that with Gainey's patience and I think it'd take virtually an 0-30 record until the end of the year to get Carbo fired.

It would be like the Leafs firing Wilson except that they both have security for different reasons: one because his team is going to suck no matter who's coaching, the other because he was inexperienced and deserved the couple of years to prove what he can do.

The reason why the team looks like such a mess in all of its losses comes from Koivu-Kovalev, not the coach. Every day, there's less of a chance that they come back (and I'm talking about both, not just one).

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Julien was already in Montreal when Gainey came in so he was the logical target when the endless losing streak started. But Gainey brought Carbo in as his protégé and I'm sure he had the intention of grooming him for at least 3 seasons until even considering firing him. After last season's success, and us currently being 4th in the East, there's no real reason for Gainey to consider tossing his student because of a slump. The two of them are very close, I'm sure plenty of his decisions have been made with Gainey's help. Combine that with Gainey's patience and I think it'd take virtually an 0-30 record until the end of the year to get Carbo fired.

It would be like the Leafs firing Wilson except that they both have security for different reasons: one because his team is going to suck no matter who's coaching, the other because he was inexperienced and deserved the couple of years to prove what he can do.

The reason why the team looks like such a mess in all of its losses comes from Koivu-Kovalev, not the coach. Every day, there's less of a chance that they come back (and I'm talking about both, not just one).

BTH, you're certainly right to say that Carbo is highly unlikely to get fired, for the very reasons you state. I'm just suggesting that under normal circumstances, on a normal team, when the GM and coach have a conventional, business relationship instead of this mentor-student thing, the GM would be thinking about a coaching change right about now. And I was also giving some reasons for why this would be a reasonable course of action.

The parallel with the 1992 team - another highly-touted club expected to go deep that imploded utterly in the second half - is interesting. That team, in addition to being fed up with Pat Burns, had deep internal divisions. Whether it's Koivu-Kovalev or some other combination (I can almost guarantee that Kovalev is part of the problem, whatever it is) this team may have a comparable rift. Certainly that would explain the grotesque/comical lack of cohesion on the ice.

We may never know exactly what's gone on here. But it isn't normal. Good teams in slumps don't surrender 40+ shots nightly. This is ridiculous.

Edited February 14, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[BTH]

Okay, I'd agree that were the GM anyone other than Gainey, Carbo might be in hot water. But since Gainey is our GM, I don't think Carbo feels any more pressure on him than Wilson does in Toronto.

This whole situation has got me into a tight situation. On one hand, without using hindsight, I've agreed with every move Gainey's made so far. On the other hand, I'm a big fan of Kovalev. And now Gainey's supposedly shopping him (and from what I've heard, this is legit). I'd hate it if Kovalev left but from the trade proposals I've heard, they make sense and are very like Gainey. So in the end, I'm going to be left either embracing a Kovalev trade or disagreeing with Gainey. It's a sad day.

But I'm almost convinced that the next move would be to let Koivu walk in the offseason (and let's be honest, he probably wants to leave anyway) and we'd be bringing back Lang cheap.

[Athlétique.Canadien]

Firing Carbonneau and laying this at his door is unacceptable. BUT, to say the coaches have no hand in this and do not share in some of the responsibility is wrong. The coaches do have a hand in this. The Habs problems have been systematic over the entire season. Lang was saving our bacon when he was actually suppose to be a compliment/good backup to the core talent we have. The writing was on the wall long before his injury. Strategically the Habs have been suspect since day one of this season. There have been far too many strategic adjustments that have not been addressed during games. When losing, counter stratagies have not been employed enough to my satisfaction. When I've screamed for dump and chase tactics, it has taken until the 3rd in many cases until they deliver. There's a whole list of things I have yelled about that for some reason has not been addressed in time. After a while when it occurs again and again and again and again one starts to suspect that the proper orders are not being given at key crucial points in the game. The players may be lazy, disinterested or whatever. But, it's been going on far too long for me to lay it simply at the players feet - or the idea that they are disinterested in obeying orders or suggestions. Everybody's dung stinks!

Edited February 14, 2009 by Athlétique.Canadien