Carbo fired

[Habsfan]

This is what this is. Shortsighted electoral patch up work. Gainey's trying to save his own ass.

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner.

[Habsy]

My prediction... The Canadiens finish strong, and make the playoffs. Firing Carbo was the right move to make, the team quit on it's coach. When Steve Bégin was traded, I was worried he'd rip Koivu or Kovalev. He didn't, what he did say was that Carbo didn't bother to communicate with his own players. Bob's loyalty, in my opinion, delayed yesterdays move 3 or 4 weeks, but it had to be done. The sun came up this morning, and I think the team is better today.

[alexstream]

My prediction... The Canadiens finish strong, and make the playoffs. Firing Carbo was the right move to make, the team quit on it's coach. When Steve Bégin was traded, I was worried he'd rip Koivu or Kovalev. He didn't, what he did say was that Carbo didn't bother to communicate with his own players. Bob's loyalty, in my opinion, delayed yesterdays move 3 or 4 weeks, but it had to be done. The sun came up this morning, and I think the team is better today.

Begin doesn't seem to me (but what do I know) like a player who's hard to coach, or who could be bad in a locker room...

If there were problems in the locker room with Begin, it is to suggest that maybe Carbo was the problem... (but what do I know)

[tokyohabs]

I'm all for trying...like Bob tries! Hey what do I know, I'm an anglo (born and raised in Montreal, and I'd help KoZed with the torching of the Bell Ctr if we could get the Forum back).

I think a lot of people see Lever suddenly being promoted to assistant coach, when none of the assistants lost their jobs, and put 2 + 2 together: grooming for a takeover in 2009-2010. Not necessarily for or against it, but it looks like that's what might happen.

[alexstream]

I'm all for trying...like Bob tries! Hey what do I know, I'm an anglo (born and raised in Montreal, and I'd help KoZed with the torching of the Bell Ctr if we could get the Forum back).

I think a lot of people see Lever suddenly being promoted to assistant coach, when none of the assistants lost their jobs, and put 2 + 2 together: grooming for a takeover in 2009-2010. Not necessarily for or against it, but it looks like that's what might happen.

Well, Gainey said that Lever was there to try to get a kick out of some players he coached in Hamilton.

I think Lever having the job would be a major upset for a guy like Jarvis, who is also Gainey's friend.

Also, history is proving that a rookie coach cannot survive in montreal.

...

so, I really think that if Gainey doesn't stay, it will be a veteran.

[Habsfan]

Also, history is proving that a rookie coach cannot survive in montreal.

Agreed. We need someone with some experience. Bob Hartley would be a great candidate. He's a winner!

I wouldn't mind seeing Lever in the position next year...but Donny boy will have to learn a bit of french before.

Hey Don, call this number!! 254-6011(two, five, four, six, oh, one, one)

Edited March 10, 2009 by Habsfan

[brobin]

"Quelques décisions de Guy Carbonneau en matière de stratégie et de remaniement de trio ont soulevé du mécontentement. Tout comme l'utilisation des gardiens et le traitement réservé à quelques vétérans, dont Steve Bégin."

Thats a quote from the main Carbo firing article, saying that he'll take some days with his family and to cool off, before commenting. While the Lapresse articles about Carbo's firing doesn't blame the players for having Carbo's head, they do say that there was a lot of discontent in the locker room about the strategies, the lines and the goalie use (which is what that quote actually says).

all the things you didn't like about carbo summed up in a pretty concise and intelligible way, it's worth it to learn french just to read that article. it's by Mathias Brunet (MB), who, like him or not, is really good at hindsight

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/sports/hockey/20...x-critiques.php

ABSTRACT :

In CGY, after bowling game, etc., he started the game with Max Pax and d'Ago line... the Flames were all over us during the first minute and that set the tone to the game (while MB believes that vets should have started the game, to set the tone)

In pitts, 2-2, 3rd period, Makin and Crosby on the ice, Carbo goes with his 3rd pairing of dmen... Pens scored within 19 seconds and we lost 5-4

In SJ or DET, you'd never see a coach line up a guy like Kosto with 2 minutes to go. Nor Metropolit on a 5 on 3... while d'Ago is out of the lineup. if you want a RH, dress d'Ago...

Carbo relied too much on his "plumbers" (checkers -> Kostopoulos).

MB didn't like Carbo's insistance on dump and chase system while most of the players are carry the puck guys.

MB didn't like nor understand why Kost was used on the LW and Tangs on the RW at the start of the season (till yesterday)

A coach cannot say that he has no solution left, that's not good for the team.

Carbo always failed to communicate.

I mostly agree with most of it.

however, I still think that carbo was learning from his mistake and that he was improving... but maybe Montreal is not the best place to learn for a coach

another article listing Carbo's 10 worst decisions, it's not so good, but I still summed it below. MB's article is way better though

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/sports/hockey/20...-carbonneau.php

ABSTRACT :

Price in Vancouver

replace Halak who was had done nothing wrong, with Price, to please Vancouver fans (price is from BC)

No communication with Kovalev

Gainey had to take care of Kovalev two times. that said, only few coaches were able to deal with the artist.

Do nothing with Kovalev.

two years ago, when Kovalev badmouthed to the russian media, Carbo could have set things straight with Kov. he didnt

Lines shuffling.

too much!

Goalies

Be it Price, Huet or Halak, we've never really known who was #1 under Carbo.

Bowling.

to relieve stress of his players! well that turned into a 7-2 loss.

Punitive training.

After the shameful loss in buff, a punitive training? well that led to another shameful loss in buffalo.

No more solutions.

Can't say that in front of the camera. he did.

Offensive strategies.

Max Lapierre, Kostopoulos when the habs were trailing? Laraque on the PP? Not sure all habs players welcomed those decisions.

Think like a player.

Too often Carbo has been thinking like a player, might have cost him his job?

Much of this is BS. After that crap in game he gave them a hard skate. That is what most coaches would do. The fact that they responded by sucking again tells me the players tuned him out. What was he suppose to do after that game, take them bowling again?

Not know who the number 1 is? We all know it is Price, by Gainey's decree. If anything he held on to Price longer then he should of when Price was floundering. Again, not sure what he was suppose to do, play Price every game no matter how many we lost? We would be out of the playoffs right now if he did.

His biggest issues were rolling four lines in tight games instead of shortening the bench and communication. I am not sure what to do with the first issue when our top guys were so useless. In many of those games, the only time we had any pressure was when the plumbers played. It wasn't like he was benching a hot line to play the plumbers. If you recall last year, the Kovy line was hot, and he played the hell out of them.

I do believe he is a poor communicator with the team and that led to a number of issues escalating instead of getting resolved. Ultimately, the players left Gainey with no choice but to replace him to salvage the season, but I don't think he is getting fired for some of these minor "mistakes". If Price had been solid and the Kovy line as good as last year, these would be considered minor.

[Wamsley01]

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner.

Gainey would be hired as a GM within 6 months if the Habs canned him. So I highly

doubt he is doing it to save his own ass. If the pressure did come from above, don't be surprised

to see Gainey resign in the summer.

THe firing played against character and I assumed with his history of patience that he saw the

big picture and was grooming Carbo for future success. If this wasn't the 100th Anniversary

I doubt this would have happened.

With Gillette reeling from the Liverpool sale collapse he needs the playoff gates. This is the first

move that Gainey has made that goes against his character, and that is what makes me nervous.

When upper management makes decisions, bad things follow.

I really hope Gainey canned him because of on ice issues, because he had the

opportunity to cleanse the dressing room in 2 months.

Something feels wrong about this.

[saskhab]

Jarvis was supposed to be Julien's successor, and he went the same route that Lever has. After the lockout, Jarvis was promoted to assistant coach under Julien. But when Julien got canned, Gainey picked Carbo as his successor.

So Lever getting promoted doesn't mean he's next in line.

[brobin]

Jarvis was supposed to be Julien's successor, and he went the same route that Lever has. After the lockout, Jarvis was promoted to assistant coach under Julien. But when Julien got canned, Gainey picked Carbo as his successor.

So Lever getting promoted doesn't mean he's next in line.

Unless Gainey dumps some core players, it doesn't matter.

If he brings in some new leadership and more youth, then either Lever or Jarvis might work out fine.

[alexstream]

who keeps merging my topic?

please, at least tell me who you are.

[JoeLassister]

I'm all for trying...like Bob tries! Hey what do I know, I'm an anglo (born and raised in Montreal, and I'd help KoZed with the torching of the Bell Ctr if we could get the Forum back).

I think a lot of people see Lever suddenly being promoted to assistant coach, when none of the assistants lost their jobs, and put 2 + 2 together: grooming for a takeover in 2009-2010. Not necessarily for or against it, but it looks like that's what might happen.

I'd not assume that none of the assistants will lose their job. I bet that Muller will be in the pressbox tonight. Jacques Demers said it clear : Muller was Carbo's man and could be out really soon without any surprise.

[saskhab]

I'd not assume that none of the assistants will lose their job. I bet that Muller will be in the pressbox tonight. Jacques Demers said it clear : Muller was Carbo's man and could be out really soon without any surprise.

Yep. Jarvis and Lever are Gainey's guys. Melanson continues to be around despite his goalies tending to tune him out over time as well.

Could Patty really be the guy waiting in the wings?

[Psycing]

Wait, who got fired?

[Nilan25]

Guys let's be realistic. There is no way the Canadiens will hire anyone but a currently biliingual coach. Point finale.

[Wamsley01]

Yep. Jarvis and Lever are Gainey's guys. Melanson continues to be around despite his goalies tending to tune him out over time as well.

Could Patty really be the guy waiting in the wings?

If the hiring is Patrick Roy, then ownership is likely meddling. It is the ultimate PR move.

That being said, Roy has more experience than Carbonneau did, and I also like the fact that

he balked at previous overtures because he felt he wasn't ready. He is a smart guy and the situation

would be ripe with opportunity next season.

People complain about the fact that the Habs always hire rookie coaches, it is

their only option when you have to hire a francophone.

I would rather have a QMJHL guy then french retread Bob Hartley. The only problem is, they essentially

apprentice in Montreal and move on to success elsewhere. Just like Carbo will and Therrien,

Julien, Vigneault etc.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Wamsley01

[brobin]

Gainey would be hired as a GM within 6 months if the Habs canned him. So I highly

doubt he is doing it to save his own ass. If the pressure did come from above, don't be surprised

to see Gainey resign in the summer.

THe firing played against character and I assumed with his history of patience that he saw the

big picture and was grooming Carbo for future success. If this wasn't the 100th Anniversary

I doubt this would have happened.

With Gillette reeling from the Liverpool sale collapse he needs the playoff gates. This is the first

move that Gainey has made that goes against his character, and that is what makes me nervous.

When upper management makes decisions, bad things follow.

I really hope Gainey canned him because of on ice issues, because he had the

opportunity to cleanse the dressing room in 2 months.

Something feels wrong about this.

I agree.. I have a lingering suspicion that pressure from the top made it clear to Gainey he couldn't hold off until after the season and clear out the guys that quit on Carbo. He couldn't risk the playoffs (although I believe Carbo would have got us to the playoffs with the home schedule and Price back on track) and so he had to make a move. I still wish that move came at the deadline, but once that was done, this was the last trick in the book for this team. It will probably work, but that doesn't mean Gainey is happy about it.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the summer.

[BCHabnut]

Yes, regardless of whether he's an NHL coach or not, someone moving to Quebec should be making an effort to learn French. If he's coaching the Habs, it isn't just a priority, it is THE priority.

But to me there isn't much difference between French and Klingon.

That is the most important thing to me. If you are a librarian or an NHL coach. You should try to speek the language. I went to Montreal for a week last year, and tried very hard to communicate in French. It was extremely hard, because while I could understand enough to follow what was being asked, my vocabulary is now so weak that I am unable to get my point across in even the most primitive way. Having said that, I still think that the best man should be hired, with the understanding that efforts will be made to speek French.

Edited March 10, 2009 by BCHabnut

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I'm not discounting the possibility that Gainey was pressured from upstairs. And I agree that if he was, this is extremely worrying; first, hockey decisions *must* be made by hockey people, otherwise you're right back in the crapper (Tampa Bay, anyone? Ronald Corey?); and second, we are certain to lose Bob Gainey, who, being a winner, will not put up with that crap. Since I remain a huge believer that Gainey is the best possible GM for this organization, that would be the worst case scenario.

HOWEVER, I've been saying for a while that this team was either suffering from deep internal divisions (the 'who's been sleeping in my bed?' scenario), OR was badly coached, OR had quit on its coach - and the latter two amount to the same thing, in practical terms. And I'm not exactly the only person who thought so. In other words, unless someone is sleeping with someone's wife, there have been serious problems in the coach/team relationship for quite a while now. It may be as simple a situation as (1) Gainey seeing exactly what the rest of us saw, and (2) deciding not to sacrifice the 2008-09 season in the ridiculous hope that a team that has quit on the coach would change its mind.

We should remember that Gainey himself clearly believed that this team could compete for a Cup when the season started. In other words, the team is no longer in rebuilding mode (although continuing to develop the young players remains crucial, something that Carbo was manifestly failing to do). The argument for keeping Carbo on is essentially a rebuilding argument: you're creating stability, you're building around your coach. That logic no longer applies once you decide you've got the horses to make a run. The coach then has to deliver. If the team quits on him, you're either going to admit that what you believed was a top team is actually a bubble team, or you're going to fire the coach. You're certainly not going to dismantle a Cup contender as an act of faith in Guy Carbonneau.

Finally - and I'm surprised this hasn't come up - if the players quit on Carbo and Carbo had stayed on, gainey would have been looking at a very difficult off-season in re-signing UFAs, who would not want to play under the same coach. And waiting until off-season to fire Carbo might have meant missing the playoffs or being easily eliminated, which would make it even more difficult both the re-sign guys OR attract new ones.

Let's remember that signing existing players and/or new ones is a huge part of Gainey's job. He WILL be factoring these things into his calculatons - that's the brave new world of player mobility.

All of these are reasons for thinking that the move, while surprising, may well have been Gainey's call. It was a reasonable general managing move, and we *may* be falling into the trap of confusing our assumptions about what Gainey's tenure would look like, with what it actually is like. We all assumed Carbo would be our Lindy Ruff. But Gainey may have had a qualifer in mind the whole time: "our Lindy Ruff, IF he delivers the results, which I believe he will." But he didn't. So he's not.

[brobin]

I'm not discounting the possibility that Gainey was pressured from upstairs. And I agree that if he was, this is extremely worrying; first, hockey decisions *must* be made by hockey people, otherwise you're right back in the crapper (Tampa Bay, anyone? Ronald Corey?); and second, we are certain to lose Bob Gainey, who, being a winner, will not put up with that crap. Since I remain a huge believer that Gainey is the best possible GM for this organization, that would be the worst case scenario.

HOWEVER, I've been saying for a while that this team was either suffering from deep internal divisions (the 'who's been sleeping in my bed?' scenario), OR was badly coached, OR had quit on its coach - and the latter two amount to the same thing, in practical terms. And I'm not exactly the only person who thought so. In other words, unless someone is sleeping with someone's wife, there have been serious problems in the coach/team relationship for quite a while now. It may be as simple a situation as (1) Gainey seeing exactly what the rest of us saw, and (2) deciding not to sacrifice the 2008-09 season in the ridiculous hope that a team that has quit on the coach would change its mind.

We should remember that Gainey himself clearly believed that this team could compete for a Cup when the season started. In other words, the team is no longer in rebuilding mode (although continuing to develop the young players remains crucial, something that Carbo was manifestly failing to do). The argument for keeping Carbo on is essentially a rebuilding argument: you're creating stability, you're building around your coach. That logic no longer applies once you decide you've got the horses to make a run. The coach then has to deliver. If the team quits on him, you're either going to admit that what you believed was a top team is actually a bubble team, or you're going to fire the coach. You're certainly not going to dismantle a Cup contender as an act of faith in Guy Carbonneau.

Finally - and I'm surprised this hasn't come up - if the players quit on Carbo and Carbo had stayed on, gainey would have been looking at a very difficult off-season in re-signing UFAs, who would not want to play under the same coach. And waiting until off-season to fire Carbo might have meant missing the playoffs or being easily eliminated, which would make it even more difficult both the re-sign guys OR attract new ones.

Let's remember that signing existing players and/or new ones is a huge part of Gainey's job. He WILL be factoring these things into his calculatons - that's the brave new world of player mobility.

All of these are reasons for thinking that the move, while surprising, may well have been Gainey's call. It was a reasonable general managing move, and we *may* be falling into the trap of confusing our assumptions about what Gainey's tenure would look like, with what it actually is like. We all assumed Carbo would be our Lindy Ruff. But Gainey may have had a qualifer in mind the whole time: "our Lindy Ruff, IF he delivers the results, which I believe he will." But he didn't. So he's not.

Gainey may have had to fire Carbo from pressure, or just because he had no choice. You are correct that he had to do something, but I will not be happy if he resigns the leaders of this team in the off season. Koivu and Kovalev have to go. First, they are not good enough anymore, second, Kovy is a head case, and thirdly, Koivu is suppose to be this great captain, but his teams have a tendency to screw the coach when they are unhappy and he needs to share the blame in that.

They say when you win its 75% the team, 25% the coach. Same with losing. Gainey has started addressing the 25%, this summer, he needs to address the other %75.

[BCHabnut]

I wish Koivu could stay and be a co captain. He is a very hard worker and can still play. I think that we need a true #1 centre and Koivu needs to co captain with Komisarek if he stays next year. As for Kovy. I will reserve my judgement. He can go from frustrating to elite like flipping a switch.

[Habsfan]

If the hiring is Patrick Roy, then ownership is likely meddling. It is the ultimate PR move.

That being said, Roy has more experience than Carbonneau did, and I also like the fact that

he balked at previous overtures because he felt he wasn't ready. He is a smart guy and the situation

would be ripe with opportunity next season.

Agreed. Hiring Patrick Roy(the prodigal Son) would be the ULTIMATE PR move in this 100th season! Although, I don't believe that Patrick is ready just yet, let's not forget that Patrick is the king of the castle in Q.C. Not only is he the coach of that team, but he's the GM and part owner...so he takes orders from nobody! Would he be able to take orders from Bob in Montreal??? I somehow doubt it.

I would rather have a QMJHL guy then french retread Bob Hartley.

Really? Why? Hartley has proven that he's a good NHL coach. He's won the cup and was able to lead a weak Thrashers team to the playoffs for the first time in their existance!

but I will not be happy if he resigns the leaders of this team in the off season. Koivu and Kovalev have to go

I'm not sure both of them have to go...but we shouldn't resign both of them. One of them shold stay...which one??? I don't know!?

Edited March 10, 2009 by Habsfan

[KoZed]

Gainey would be hired as a GM within 6 months if the Habs canned him. So I highly

doubt he is doing it to save his own ass. If the pressure did come from above, don't be surprised

to see Gainey resign in the summer.

THe firing played against character and I assumed with his history of patience that he saw the

big picture and was grooming Carbo for future success. If this wasn't the 100th Anniversary

I doubt this would have happened.

With Gillette reeling from the Liverpool sale collapse he needs the playoff gates. This is the first

move that Gainey has made that goes against his character, and that is what makes me nervous.

When upper management makes decisions, bad things follow.

I really hope Gainey canned him because of on ice issues, because he had the

opportunity to cleanse the dressing room in 2 months.

Something feels wrong about this.

The more I think about it, the more I'm tending to lean toward the same thing. I'm getting the feeling that Gainey is feeling some pressure to achieve playoffs success this year, future be damned. It's the 5th year of his 5-years plan. Couldnt wait for the summer to clean up the lockerroom and give Carbo horses he could count on. Gainey's always been a good corporate guy and it's in his character to satisfy his bosses... but I'm not sure he'd take kindly to be pressured into hockey decisions at this stage of his career for financial and PR reasons, and be made to feel bys his bosses that he has something to prove as a GM.

We wont get any closure on this until the summer.

[sbhatt]

One of them shold stay...which one??? I don't know!?

I think Bob will know beyond a shadow of a doubt by the end of the season, now that he's on the bench and in the dressing room to evaluate both Koivu and Kovalev.

[brobin]

I think Bob will know beyond a shadow of a doubt by the end of the season, now that he's on the bench and in the dressing room to evaluate both Koivu and Kovalev.

Well, Koivu just tossed Carbo under the bus in a radio interview. I don't care if he is right, as the Captain he should show more class. So he can go.

Kovy.. he is a coach killer even when he isn't trying to be. Signing him depends on who else we can get to replace him. I would rather have a more consistent performer.