GDT: Wild vs Canadiens

[KoZed]

I'd love to see it, but doubt if Gainey has the balls. How many coaches can he fire before he finally has to answer for his screw-ups.

I was somewhat joking. I'm really disappointed by Martin so far. I was expecting him to turn us into a team rabid on the forecheck and smothering defensively. Neither has happened. The lack of offensive imagination is numbing; and the defensive problems cant be blamed on the injuries to our defensemen since it's mostly the forwards that mess up. Injuries are saving his ass because they're a built in excuse. In the meantime, with injuries and call-ups, Boucher still managed to build the best defense of the whole AHL and to get the Bulldogs to play for .661. The comparison and comment was easy to make.

HOWEVER, just as I said last year when Carbo was concerned; the same holds true for Martin: it's the players' job to get angry and get tired of losing. There's enough veterans in that lockerroom to not need to have the coaches tell them they need to show more passion. That's the "pro" part of "pro athlete". 

[bar]

I think we are also putting undue expections on guys meant to play hard to become scorers like Metro, Moen, Laps.

[ForumGhost]

because Martin isnt adapting his system to the score. It's disheartening. Where's the emotion???

Ehh, what?? Did you watch the game?

Just got home, score was 2-1.

Guess that answers my question.

I dunno what game some of you were watching, but the Habs played a VERY offensive and creative game tonight. Tons of quality chances. Wild were in a state of complete submission for most of the game do to relentless forechecking which created a lot of turn-overs. Unfortunately, they just couldn't bury them. This game had nothing to do with lack of effort.

Edited December 18, 2009 by ForumGhost

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I didn't see the game either, but I notice several comments both here and on Habs I/O that suggest we dominated for significant stretches. If that's so, then this ragging on the team for having no pride, not working hard, not listening to Martin, etc., is an (understandable) over-reaction. Guys like Gomez, Moen have pride; they're Cup champions. They care. They want to win.

Injuries are 'no excuse.' OK, but Spacek is playing hurt and we're missing our top-2 guys. Under those circumstances, if we outplayed the Wild, I call that a character effort regardless of the final score. And yeah, other teams have injuries, but other teams also have established chemistries. Of every team in the league, ours was the one that could afford early-season injuries the least.

My guess is that what's happened here is that we've run out of fumes. The penalties were one sign of it. Now the Ls are piling up. The team hung in there for a long time without Markov, Gionta, and the rest. (Don't forget that we've also lost Latendresse without replacing him, because Pouliot is injured - so we're short yet another roster spot). But eventually you squeeze the lemon dry.

I just wish people could distinguish between playing well and losing, and being worthless crap and losing. The intense negativity around this team strikes me as unfair; of all habs teams in recent years, this one seems the most likeable in terms of character, commitment, etc.. That doesn't make them winners, but it does mean our tone should probably be less bitter than it is.

[ForumGhost]

I didn't see the game either, but I notice several comments both here and on Habs I/O that suggest we dominated for significant stretches. If that's so, then this ragging on the team for having no pride, not working hard, not listening to Martin, etc., is an (understandable) over-reaction. Guys like Gomez, Moen have pride; they're Cup champions. They care. They want to win.

Injuries are 'no excuse.' OK, but Spacek is playing hurt and we're missing our top-2 guys. Under those circumstances, if we outplayed the Wild, I call that a character effort regardless of the final score. And yeah, other teams have injuries, but other teams also have established chemistries. Of every team in the league, ours was the one that could afford early-season injuries the least.

My guess is that what's happened here is that we've run out of fumes. The penalties were one sign of it. Now the Ls are piling up. The team hung in there for a long time without Markov, Gionta, and the rest. (Don't forget that we've also lost Latendresse without replacing him, because Pouliot is injured - so we're short yet another roster spot). But eventually you squeeze the lemon dry.

I just wish people could distinguish between playing well and losing, and being worthless crap and losing. The intense negativity around this team strikes me as unfair; of all habs teams in recent years, this one seems the most likeable in terms of character, commitment, etc.. That doesn't make them winners, but it does mean our tone should probably be less bitter than it is.

Amen. It should also be noted Mara is also probably playing injured. He did okay tonight but I find it a huge coincidence that he is ready to go the day after Hamrlik goes down.

Edited December 18, 2009 by ForumGhost

[MFT77]

I wonder why i haven't read anyone questioning why Gainey traded a healthy Lats for an injured Pouliot. Could he not have waited til at least Pouliout was healthy.

Gotta question the smarts of this.

[Colin]

You know what really irritates me is the ridiculous feeling of entitlement that many Habs fans seem to have. "We should play with intensity every night. Where's the speed. Where's the creativity. Where are my damn Cups!" I mean, how many of you watch games not involving the Habs? You do realize that every team in the NHL has tough nights. You'd be hard-pressed to find a team that competed at 100% of their capacity every night. You'd be hard-pressed to find a team that competed at 100% of their capacity in 60 of their games - this is a long ######ing season. The best teams are the ones who can have a bad game yet still find a way to win. We're not one of the best teams yet. It's so patently ridiculous hearing all this bitching after every single game when it's just a knee-jerk reaction to a microcosm of the hockey league.

We haven't found ways to win those games yet. Big deal. It's a process. Martin has this team competing infinitely harder than at any point in the Carbo reign. Furthermore, they actually have some ability to play team defense, which Carbo had no clue how to implement. What, you think we're the only team that struggles? I've seen the biggest superstars in the league benched. Tanguay, who many wanted to keep this season, isn't even good enough to make the bench these days - he's a healthy scratch. Know why? Cause he doesn't in half his games. I live in Ottawa, know what the prevailing thought is with Spezza out of the lineup? Great! Now we can have one more player in the lineup that gives a shit! In their last Cup winning year, there was a game where Yzerman was benched for the third period. Yzerman. You know, the captain? Team leader? Arguably best player? Happens to everyone in the league; every team in the league.

But here in Montreal, oh no! How DARE! Two defenders who can be top-four guys (one who is one of the best in the game) and they're both out. Two others who would be bottom two guys on other teams. And two others who probably are lucky Montreal gave them a shot. But how DARE! An offensive unit which has only learned how to play team defense in its last 10 games. PROCESS. Learn one thing first, then the next. And guess what, other than three games, this team has been in every single match; has had a chance to win on most nights with a couple of bounces and a little luck. They've out-played opponents and lost, and have sucked balls and won. But we aren't leading the league... how DARE!

We have two young goalies who are still learning their craft. Why on Earth would anyone expect them to tear up the league?

So, for the sake of argument, let's say everyone believes the argument I'm making now. Then the next question is this: if we aren't competing, then the blame must be put on the next level - Bob, have you let us down? Has he? In one respect, yes, though circumstance would have led virtually every other GM in the league to do the same: Boucher as AHL coach seems to finally be doing something great for the organization and is providing Montreal with players who can step up. Why wasn't he brought in before? Because we won the damned Calder Cup! How do you fire a guy then?

Other than that, what could Bob have done? Trade for the mythical French Superhero to save us? Sure. But at what cost? If he does that and sells the perverbial farm, he's still the goat. He can't win with the fans unless he provides the Cup, no exceptions. If fans can't admit that, they're only deluding themselves. He took a huge gamble - exactly what people have been yearning for for years - in changing the core and gutting the team. And what does he get? Grief. Not good enough. How DARE! We have a guy, Cammalleri, who is a better and more consistent goal scorer than anyone since Richer, but it's not good enough. Gionta and Gomez. Too small. Everyone forgets the chemistry they had before Gionta went down of course. Gomez just plain sucks.

Just unrealistic expectations. Everyone wants their now now now and bypass the process because we're Montreal and we shouldn't have to go through it all so just hand us the Cup now.

Hey, guess what: there's only ONE Cup winner every year. Think some of those other teams might have something to say about it? And if they do? Shut up.

After all, we're Montreal. We're entitled to every win, every night, every Cup. Same route this year?

[Chris]

I agree with you Colin.

Unfortunately, these guys couldn't score with 500 bucks in a whore house. Atleast they play hard.

Obviously Price's fault. Along with globing warming, the weak US dollar, swine flu and many other things.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Always great Colin.

I agree with you Chris that we have such a poor record because Price is really bad.

On a serious note... The first goal was a direct result of a selfless play by Gomez. Gomez braced himself for a solid hit coming his way and made the pass instead of bailing on the play to avoid the hit. I still don't like the trade but we need more guys like Gomez.

[Chris]

Actually if Gill just hit the guy there wouldn't even been a shot on the net.

The second Gorges didn't clear the puck, Gill missed the puck, Gorges 1 step behind his check for an easy tap in.

The third was Metro i believe not covering his guy.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Colin, I think that's a great post. There's just too much anger and bitterness among Habs fans. Understandable given 15 years of suckage, but entirely unfair to this specific group of players who are not responsible for the past. Well spoken, good sir.

[huzer]

Well, I actually did watch the game last night. Even the Minny announcers mentioned more than once that "if they keep playing like this, they are definitely going to be winning more hockey games" or something along those lines. The 1st period sucked, but the 2nd and 3rd were easily controlled by the Habs. I was a little impressed with that, considering it was back to back games, and Martin basically rolls 3 lines. I am worried about wearing guys down, since we're a 3 line team.

Gill was utterly useless last night. I don't know if the ice was bad, or if he's so damn big he sinks into it, but he couldn't move, and anytime the puck was near him, it hopped over his stick, or magically was repelled by his presence and shot off in the other direction.

While the Habs have played decent enough to win recently, last night was the first in a while of long stretches in the opponent's zone. I saw plenty of calls that have been made on the Habs that simply weren't called last night. That's not why the team lost, as they may have only scored had the Wild pulled Backstrom and gave them an empty net, but it's just an observation. Are the Wild just supremely more disciplined to not take penalties when they're outworked? Who knows, that's the first Wild game I've seen.

Basically what we're seeing now are all those early season 1 goal games going the other way. I actually laughed reading Habs I/O this morning about the upcoming schedule...NYI, ATL, CAR, and the comment of them being winnable games. I would imagine that's what most teams are saying about playing the Habs, at this point.

[Fanpuck33]

Yeah, it was an interesting thing to watch. Montreal was actually playing fairly well after the first period, but you could just feel that nothing would come of it and Minny would sneak one in at some point.

[KoZed]

Nice post Colin. As far as blanket defense of everything wrong with this team this year, it's right up there with the classics "Give them time to gel" and "It's because of injuries"

Aaah, who am I kidding. I can't stand anyone trying to argue that mediocrity is acceptable, regardless of the excuses. Excellence is the goal, always has been, always should be; moreover when it comes to an organization with a long tradition of excellence like the Montreal Canadiens. It's not entitlement, it's just keeping a standard alive.

Defending mediocrity, finding excuses and trying to justify failure is the first step to making failure acceptable, to making losing acceptable and in creating a culture of losing. It was unthinkable in Habsland until Houle came along and the team was in shamble. The Organization managed to sell the argument that the team was building for the future, that in the meantime losing was acceptable. What happened 6, 7 years later when the team was finally ripe with talent and could compete? They folded under pressure and went into horribly long slumps; why? Because for years they grew and were brought up in an environment that accepted losing, that didnt promote excellence enough.

Saying "give them time to gel" and temporizing is neither realistic nor smart nor wise. It's just simple temporizing, a by-product of procrastination; itself a by-product of a culture of failure. "Awww, I'll give what it takes tomorrow. Not today. Today I'll lose. It's ok. Losing is acceptable today. I dont have to win today. I'll do all it takes to win later... someday" Then you end up having to play catch up at the last minute, give a desperate last second effort and to the fool's eyes make it look like you have character because you didnt give up even though you still fall short.

Martin has this team competing harder than at any time under the Carbo regime? Please... This team couldnt come back from a 5-0 deficit, ever. They simply can't get into any groove that carries them, they can't grab a hold of momentum, hold on to it and use it to their advantage. Took them the Centennial Game to show that kind of energy and emotion. That was the first and last time it happened this season. They're cooler, calmer and more collected than under Carbo; which is a double-edged sword because sometimes you need to play fired up, which this team can't do. Overall, it's not an improvement. I also recall we won the Conference under Carbo. We competed to get there. Wait until Martin achieve that much before playing that card.

Bob? What about Bob? The man who came in with a boat load of sympathy and respect; a good bunch of prospects in the system and very low immediate expectations for the team. He got that team to improve, added more prospects; yet 6 years later there had been no playoffs success; most of the assets he had when he came in had been squandered and he found himself having no other options but to blow it all up and (almost) start again from scratch. 5 years that amounted to absolutely nothing. That's Gainey's track record up to now: Failure, with a big capital "F". How can some folks still find the blind faith to defend his every move with the fervor of zealots is somewhat admirable. Some sacred cows die harder than others, I guess. Sadly, for the rest of us who dont have any emotions invested in the preservation of Bob Gainey's Aura of Sainthood and look at his work with cold, calculating pragmatism; there's nothing in there that can reasonably allow for any enthusiastic optimism.

You can cover your ears and yell "Lalalalalallalalalala" to protect yourself from the negative; the fact remains that the dreams you've bought and are reselling --Price the Franchise, Gainey the wise old Jedi, Martin the Hockey Mastermind, Gomez the #1 Superman C-- hasnt happened, isnt happening, and isnt giving any signs of happening tomorrow; and any criticism they garnered so far this season is just as justified, if not more, than the praise and protection they had been given. Ah, but it's all about that ever-eluding "later", right? Tomorrow, tomorrow... Well, we've had 5 years of Gainey's "Tomorrows" and we're not any better than we were back then when we were fighting for a playoffs spot.

It's time to deliver. Having a different cast is no excuse, just a different position Gainey chose to put himself in. The expectations should remain the same regardless. Again, it's about the culture. No rationalizations and temporizing that make losing acceptable. So the guys are new? Fine, just makes it all the more justified to rag on them for the underwhelming hockey they've played so far this season. They need to be taught, programmed. Call it negative reinforcement. That's part of the process too. Always been, always should be. It's called tough love. That's how your really build winners.

[Habsy]

Ya, Colin's had several good posts in the last 24 hours.

[Colin]

Aaah, who am I kidding. I can't stand anyone trying to argue that mediocrity is acceptable, regardless of the excuses. Excellence is the goal, always has been, always should be; moreover when it comes to an organization with a long tradition of excellence like the Montreal Canadiens. It's not entitlement, it's just keeping a standard alive.

This is not the old NHL where Montreal got to draft before everyone else because they were special, nor is it an era where the league offices are in Montreal, nor is it the time when Montreal GM's are the only ones who know hockey. There are 30 teams, not 6 or even 21. People like you would call out the Red Wings every year they didn't win the Cup because they just aren't good enough. No, nothing is good enough for the fan like you because you have that feeling of entitlement: how DARE anyone else do better. If this club made it to game seven of the Cup finals, the same witch hunt would continue to try burning everyone at the stake: we didn't win because Price didn't save one goal in game seven; Martin didn't adjust well enough in game seven; had Bob not traded so-and-so for so-and-so we'd be parading.

You also continually neglect the very real issues surrounding playing in Montreal in the first place. The ridiculous atmosphere, the culture in Quebec, the language, etc, ad nausea. You insist that these are not excuses that should come into play and that, if we had the proper men in charge, we'd get whoever we want whenever we want. Despite players continually going elsewhere for less cash. After all, we're the Montreal ######ing Canadiens, and therefore we're better than everyone. You neglect parity and how we can't rape others in trades and load up with players extending our salary structure to infinity. You and your ilk are stuck in the 70's, praying for some miracle of Divine Creation that will restore the proper balance and once again make Montreal better, just because it's Montreal.

You want us to win, win, win, and yet you want us to win with Francophone stars - because somehow we apparently need them over anything. We must have Franco's in charge and Francos leading the team, and yet, this is a business and not a Montreal Hockey League and therefore we have to do the best to compete. Tampa, how DARE! Trade us Lecavalier for a pittance. WE ARE MONTREAL, DAMN YOU, HAVE YOU NO RESPECT??

Then we have to play firewagon hockey because that's the only way Montreal SHOULD win. When we win by playing the trap, it's too boring and not good enough. Where were the complainers in 86 when we won through the trap? That was a comparatively terrible offensive club, but we persevered through team defense and great goaltending. In fact, the complainers were everywhere. Days after the Cup, out come the whiners saying we were lucky and that we didn't deserve to win because we didn't win it the Montreal Way.

Nothing is EVER good enough for the likes of you because you live in a mythical past where even the best teams can't live up to your expectations. I can't wait to see what Leblanc does. I suspect he's going to fail miserably - because he's French. Because the expectations on him will be so much higher than on everyone else. I hope he succeeds, big time. But I doubt it. And when and if he does fail? Bob will be blamed for picking him. And if he hadn't picked him, Bob would have been blamed. Can't you see inside your own little head games just a little? Nothing is good enough for you. You like to insinuate that the rest of us are pathetic because we don't subscribe to the Montreal Mythos where We Should Always Win. We feel sorry for you because you don't subscribe to: reality.

[Fanpuck33]

Yes, it is unreasonable to expect the team to be a top contender every year. It's also not unreasonable to to expect the team to do more that compete for the last playoff spot year in and year out. For the last 15 years, this has been the culture of the team. Only once have they been more than than a fringe playoff team. No fan of any team should be ok with that. Being a fringe playoff team that never makes a run is not much better than being a lottery team.

[KoZed]

This is not the old NHL where Montreal got to draft before everyone else because they were special, nor is it an era where the league offices are in Montreal, nor is it the time when Montreal GM's are the only ones who know hockey. There are 30 teams, not 6 or even 21. People like you would call out the Red Wings every year they didn't win the Cup because they just aren't good enough. No, nothing is good enough for the fan like you because you have that feeling of entitlement: how DARE anyone else do better. If this club made it to game seven of the Cup finals, the same witch hunt would continue to try burning everyone at the stake: we didn't win because Price didn't save one goal in game seven; Martin didn't adjust well enough in game seven; had Bob not traded so-and-so for so-and-so we'd be parading.

You also continually neglect the very real issues surrounding playing in Montreal in the first place. The ridiculous atmosphere, the culture in Quebec, the language, etc, ad nausea. You insist that these are not excuses that should come into play and that, if we had the proper men in charge, we'd get whoever we want whenever we want. Despite players continually going elsewhere for less cash. After all, we're the Montreal ######ing Canadiens, and therefore we're better than everyone. You neglect parity and how we can't rape others in trades and load up with players extending our salary structure to infinity. You and your ilk are stuck in the 70's, praying for some miracle of Divine Creation that will restore the proper balance and once again make Montreal better, just because it's Montreal.

You want us to win, win, win, and yet you want us to win with Francophone stars - because somehow we apparently need them over anything. We must have Franco's in charge and Francos leading the team, and yet, this is a business and not a Montreal Hockey League and therefore we have to do the best to compete. Tampa, how DARE! Trade us Lecavalier for a pittance. WE ARE MONTREAL, DAMN YOU, HAVE YOU NO RESPECT??

Then we have to play firewagon hockey because that's the only way Montreal SHOULD win. When we win by playing the trap, it's too boring and not good enough. Where were the complainers in 86 when we won through the trap? That was a comparatively terrible offensive club, but we persevered through team defense and great goaltending. In fact, the complainers were everywhere. Days after the Cup, out come the whiners saying we were lucky and that we didn't deserve to win because we didn't win it the Montreal Way.

Nothing is EVER good enough for the likes of you because you live in a mythical past where even the best teams can't live up to your expectations. I can't wait to see what Leblanc does. I suspect he's going to fail miserably - because he's French. Because the expectations on him will be so much higher than on everyone else. I hope he succeeds, big time. But I doubt it. And when and if he does fail? Bob will be blamed for picking him. And if he hadn't picked him, Bob would have been blamed. Can't you see inside your own little head games just a little? Nothing is good enough for you. You like to insinuate that the rest of us are pathetic because we don't subscribe to the Montreal Mythos where We Should Always Win. We feel sorry for you because you don't subscribe to: reality.

Oh man, you're so far out there. Where to possibly begin to reply to all that non-sense?

Aaah, forget it. You're putting way too many words in my mouth, repeating way too many old worn out clichés I've already heard a thousand times coming from a thousand different voices. "Trial of intentions" is the expression, I believe. Or maybe just "projection" would be enough. You project all that deep-seated, racial/linguistic bias on me because, really, it's how you feel deep inside but can't bring yourself to admit it. God forbids YOU would be guilty of the same slanted, irrational language sectarianism you so viscerally despise on the Francos, right? Just impossible, uh? Ah! Look in the mirror. You have issues in your blind-spots, my friend.

Until then, you're a lost cause Colin. Just one more exceptionally bright mind who can so eloquently describe the straw in the other's eye but not see the beam in his. Such a waste, but also so sadly typical.

[Colin]

Oh man, you're so far out there. Where to possibly begin to reply to all that non-sense?

Aaah, forget it. You're putting way too many words in my mouth, repeating way too many old worn out clichés I've already heard a thousand times coming from a thousand different voices. "Trial of intentions" is the expression, I believe. Or maybe just "projection" would be enough. You project all that deep-seated, racial/linguistic bias on me because, really, it's how you feel deep inside but can't bring yourself to admit it. God forbids YOU would be guilty of the same slanted, irrational language sectarianism you so viscerally despise on the Francos, right? Just impossible, uh? Ah! Look in the mirror. You have issues in your blind-spots, my friend.

Until then, you're a lost cause Colin. Just one more exceptionally bright mind who can so eloquently describe the straw in the other's eye but not see the beam in his. Such a waste, but also so sadly typical.

And sadly, this is the recourse of someone who can't continue the argument. I know you want me to have racial bias, etc, etc, because that's what *should* happen in the corner of your persecuted universe, but I don't. It's all true, all those franco issues are completely upheld consistently. Look at some of your threads where you insist that we should have drafted only franco.

Anyhow, that was but a sliver of my argument. Why focus only on that? Persecution complex which leaves your exceptionally bright mind walled up and on the defensive endlessly.

What about the rest of the argument? Make a point, Koz. Keep the debate going, don't duck and cover because you see something that may offend. It's not my intention to offend, but to challenge. Prove me wrong! I'm here to learn as much as anything else, but when the recourse for a longer argument is to pull out certain commentary and focus only on that, the argument becomes silly. If you don't like my argument, break it down and tell me why. Tell me why you think parity and salary caps and my mis-diagnosed perception of slow improvement is wrong. Don't just fall back into a persecuted corner. You want to convince me, my mind is open - it always has been and always will be. Anyone who knows me personally knows I'm willing to listen to a real argument. But make one.

What about you? Is your mind open? If I made even one point that you might agree with, would you even conceed that? Or are you now just blustering obsinately because you refuse to lose a point in an argument. You're smarter than that, Koz. Much smarter. You're an educated person and someone who has done plenty of debate on real issues bigger than hockey. And I suspect you don't have those arguments all disolve into racial quagmires. So make your argument. You make a winning point, I'll concede it. You do the same.

Want to know why these boards are dying slowly? This is why. An argument is made and instead of countering it, you accuse me of racial bias and concentrate only on that one element of my argument. Too many do this. They don't counter argument with argument, they get to a point where they might have to concede a point and instead get personal or insulted. That's not rational debate, that's childhood school ground nonsense. Want these boards to be better, then make your arguments and debate like adults.

Isn't that why HW was created? Aren't we better than HFBoards and all that crap? Or are we just going to give up and go down the same path.

[Dalhabs]

Is this some kind of election? Sounds just like two persons running for president.

[RJP]

Being without Markov and Gionta doesnt explain/excuse the lack of emotion, the lack of pride, the lack of intensity, the lack of discipline, etc. It's just an easy cope out mechanism to refuse to see the painful truth: Martin cant get a grip on this bunch of players. Can't get them to play well as a team, can't discipline them, cant get the most out of most of his players. He got the most out of Plekanec; and now he's squeezing him dry because he hasnt elevated anyone else.

Detroit is crippled by injuries, also lost a ton of players this summer. But the team spirit over there keeps them going. That's what we haven't had for ages: an identity, leaders, character, winning desire. Still dont have it.

Well said Kozed, no S*!# it's Martin AND Gainey - anyone with hockey sense can see it's the wrong system. They lack desire, discipline and really......blah, blah, blah. O'Byrne is NOT ready to play in this league, he's slow, both physically and mentally. Metropolit makes me sick every time I see him on the ice, as does Gomez at $$$$ + a year!!!. I could go on but it's pointless. It's not that they can't win, it's that they have no hatred for losing. That's the answer - if you hate to lose, you'll do what it takes to win, plain and simple. I'm tired reading the posts of some of the fans but then again I can see why - most are too young to know what success is, so their bar of expectation is naturally low. That's why all the horse crap that we "dominated", played a "good game", our "star" players are hurt. It's loser talk and that's what the "habs Fan" has become, sad to see.

[kenadian]

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=302834

A couple days too late............

[Colin]

Well said Kozed, no S*!# it's Martin AND Gainey - anyone with hockey sense can see it's the wrong system.

See that's the kind of ridiculous talk that prickles and is useless on boards. You're saying that if we don't see things YOUR way, then we're 100% incorrect? Do you all have infallibility on your side? Can you fit through doors with ego's that large? Can you not see that there could be merit in other ways of doing things? No, You. Are. Always. Right. Impossible to argue against such people. I believe Zealot is the word for it.

EDIT: spelling (thanks Jets, now we know you read the Habs boards - closet fan, aren't you!)

Edited December 19, 2009 by Colin

[Wamsley01]

Kozed never mentioned that the Habs had to be the Sam Pollock Canadiens. I never hear Kozed attacking the

terrible teams of the 80s as an insult to firewagon hockey, yet you painted him with that brush by using phrases

like "people like you", "Nothing is good enough for fans like you" .

You rail on him for the demise of this board, and say he is not willing to defend his point of view yet offered

absolutely no rebuttal of his post. Just platitudes to convey your agenda, your point of view.

I read both posts and agreed with both to varying degrees, but apparently there is no middle ground. Either you are drinking

a whole pitcher of Kool-Aid, or you are a fool to be drinking it. There is no discussion,

It is "I am right/You are wrong", you are with me, or you are against me. WTF, I have had plenty of discussions with

C.C/saskhab/Chris/Kozed where I am 180º opposed, but I never fail to respect where they are coming from, I never fail to respect

their passion or knowledge for the game, I never fail to respect how they have changed my perspective on plenty of subjects.

The one truth is, this board isn't what it was 2-3 years ago. The game threads have ZERO insight and offer nothing

but attacks and defenders of the attacked. When once there were 10-15 insightful members which helped ignite

stimulating debates and informative points of view has turned into the same discussion over and over with the same repeating

points of view. Personally I used to come on here 10-15 times per day, now I feel like my comments involve the same

discussions I have been having for 6 months, the only way I can take part in discussions is to repeat my opinions that

I have stated endlessly and what is the result? What is the benefit to anybody? I know what people are going to post before I even read the bloody page.When a play happens in a game, I know exactly the individuals who will attack, I know the individuals who will defend, I know the inidividuals who will be apologists.

The top two threads right now are essentially Price/Halak. Every thread devolves into Price/Halak, Pro-Gainey/Anti-Gainey.

Gainey is not Rejean Houle, nor Sam Pollock. Price is not Patrick Roy, nor Jocelyn Thibault. Halak is not Tomas Vokoun.

Can somebody come up with another theory outside of injuries and team cohesion for this mess?

Now it has devolved into two of the more respected posters fighting about what? The same discussion that has been going

on since the summer, points that have been made a million times. This board has turned into a forum of people arguing things

they want to be true, manipulating facts to push forward their agenda and stonewalling dissenting opinion. It is no longer a

discussion, it is factions set up counting their victories. I said Latendresse sucked, he was traded, I am right. I told you Gomez

was crap, I am right. Where is the room for an evolving perspective? It is like a ######ing court room in here. You said so and so

on such a date, therefore you are being a hypocrite for changing your opinion, you were wrong, I am right.

I don't care if you are wrong or right, just be original, unique, passionate, funny, creative or thought provoking. Jesus, every simplistic discussion has a 50/50 probability for being correct, so you don't need to be right to earn MY respect.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Wamsley01

[JoeLassister]

Kozed never mentioned that the Habs had to be the Sam Pollock Canadiens. I never hear Kozed attacking the

terrible teams of the 80s as an insult to firewagon hockey, yet you painted him with that brush by using phrases

like "people like you", "Nothing is good enough for fans like you" .

You rail on him for the demise of this board, and say he is not willing to defend his point of view yet offered

absolutely no rebuttal of his post. Just platitudes to convey your agenda, your point of view.

I read both posts and agreed with both to varying degrees, but apparently there is no middle ground. Either you are drinking

a whole pitcher of Kool-Aid, or you are a fool to be drinking it. There is no discussion,

It is "I am right/You are wrong", you are with me, or you are against me. WTF, I have had plenty of discussions with

C.C/saskhab/Chris/Kozed where I am 180º opposed, but I never fail to respect where they are coming from, I never fail to respect

their passion or knowledge for the game, I never fail to respect how they have changed my perspective on plenty of subjects.

The one truth is, this board isn't what it was 2-3 years ago. The game threads have ZERO insight and offer nothing

but complaining and defenders of the complaints. When once there were 10-15 insightful members which helped ignite

stimulating debates and informative points of view has turned into the same discussion over and over with the same repeating

points of view. Personally I used to come on here 10-15 times per day, now I feel like my comments involve the same

discussions I have been having for 6 months, the only way I can take part in discussions is to repeat my opinions that

I have stated endlessly and what is the result? What is the benefit to anybody? I know what people are going to post before I even read the bloody page.When a play happens in a game, I know exactly the individuals who will attack, I know the individuals who will defend, I know the inidividuals who will be apologists.

The top two threads right now are essentially Price/Halak. Every thread devolves into Price/Halak, Pro-Gainey/Anti-Gainey.

Gainey is not Rejean Houle, nor Sam Pollock. Price is not Patrick Roy, nor Jocelyn Thibault. Halak is not Tomas Vokoun.

Can somebody come up with another theory outside of injuries and team cohesion for this mess?

Now it has devolved into two of the more respected posters fighting about what? The same discussion that has been going

on since the summer, points that have been made a million times. This board has turned into a forum of people arguing things

they want to be true, manipulating facts to push forward their agenda and stonewalling dissenting opinion. It is no longer a

discussion, it is factions set up counting their victories. I said Latendresse sucked, he was traded, I am right. I told you Gomez

was crap, I am right. Where is the room for an evolving perspective? It is like a ######ing court room in here. You said so and so

on such a date, therefore you are being a hypocrite for changing your opinion, you were wrong, I am right.

I don't care if you are wrong or right, just be original, unique, passionate, funny, creative or thought provoking. Jesus, every simplistic discussion has a 50/50 probability for being correct, so you don't need to be right to earn MY respect.

There is only ONE truth : LEAFS SUCK !!!!