GDT Pittsburgh vs Montreal, Nov. 26, 7 PM EST

[Colin]

Re Patches: One thing in his favour is that there was no penalty called on the play. Shanahan has used that line of reasoning this year already.

[Habsy]

Nobody actually thinks the Chara hit has anything to do with anything. That didn't need clearing up. However, imagine being on the phone with Shanahan, as he says 2 games Max. If that were me, I'd tell him to lick my b**ls. I'd say I was put into the hospital last year, and nothing was done. And now you're suspending me for a hit on a player who only missed a shift to change jerseys?

[bbp]

Yeah, no one should bring up Chara into this, we want the league to be fair right? Not to get political with these sorts of things.

[bbp]

That was a weird hit... He gets his head and shoulder... I don't know what I would do.

Like he does hit the head but it was a full check, he didn't just hit the head... :/

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Chara should have nothing to do with this hearing. Pacs made a clean hit, imo. I don't see who they can suspend him. there were several similar hits this year that were review, no suspension.

He did hit Letang in the nose with his shoulder, but after he hit his shoulder. He never left his feet, nor did he make primary contact with the head. It was secondary contact. If they are going to suspend him, then I am not sure how a guy is suppose to be able to make any open ice hit.

I have no problem with the review, but if this is a suspension, then I am confused again. There was no reason for Pacs to let up on the hit, Letang looked right at him and only got hit in the nose because he dropped his head to make the shot (which he got away).

Now, before I get accused of homerism.. I thought it would be a suspension at the start of the year when they were basically saying, any hit to the head (kind of like high sticking). But then they made several decisions which clarified that hitting the head is not suspendable if it is from a clean check with secondary contact.

Shanny needs to be consistent. He can't use the ref's excuse of "its a fast game".

This is a very perceptive remark. I was 100% on board with Shanahan's early, no-mercy verdicts. Now he has gone and muddied the waters with things like the non-suspension for the hit on Campoli.

But I still support the original approach. And by that standard Patches should be suspended, as you say.

[BCHabnut]

I some thoughts concerning the Pacioretty hit. I watched it last night, and as soon as I saw it I said he's getting a couple games for it. I know it wasn't malicious or intended to hurt Letang.

If Pacioretty gets suspended because of it, there would have to be some fallout of the decision.

If the player wasn't in a vulnerable position and the same hit was made, would it be suspendable? Not at all.

Who put Letang in the vulnerable position? Letang did.

If the player getting hit put himself in a vulnerable position, without any contact with anyone else on the ice surface, shouldn't Letang be responsible for some of the blame? I understand the ruse are to protect the players for injury, but according to the rules the only person on the ice surface thats not responsible for your safety is you. You can turn your back to checks and risk injury. You get hurt the person hitting you gets punished. You can lead with your head and risk injury, as Letang did entering the zone. You get hit the person hitting you gets punished. You can skate with you head at other player's elbow height and risk injury. You get hit and the person hitting you gets punished.

Players need to get back to taking their safety in their own hands. 25 years ago Letang was the one at fault. Not saying 25 years ago it was right, there needs to be a medium between who is really at fault in a situation like this. Right now the rule are taking hitting out of the game, players putting themselves in vulnerable positions willingly just to avoid being hit.

To me, this hit is a clone of the Malone hit on Campoli. We all wanted a suspension there, and many were insensed when it did not happen. Pac sees that Letang leans forward as he is commiting to the hit, and his body seems to twist away from Letang as he makes contact. If you thought Malone deserved a suspension, then you should think Pac deserves one here.

My feeling is that you need one or the other. Old time hockey takes a lot of these things out of the refs hands, and I tend to support it. If you are going to call a penalty when a defender crushes someone for trying to dig the puck out of a goalie's glove, you damn well better get the call right! If you are going to assign an instigator when someone goes after a player for a dirty hit, then you better damn well make the right penalty call and assign a suitable suspension. This transition is painful to watch and it is putting the refs under the microscope.

I say let Pac's hit go, let Lucic hit on Miller slide, and let the Letang goal count. Just as you do not assign the extra two minutes when England attacks Pac and beats the shit out of him for the dirty hit, and no extra two when Roy, Reger and Gaustad swarm Lucic for his horrible display of disrespect on miller, and no roughing call when Gill two arms Letang in the face and sends him flying, because he was too close to his goalie when the puck was frozen.

[Commandant]

I think its 2 games for Patches. First time offender is the only thing that doesn't make it more.

[BCHabnut]

I think you keep components of the other two lines together. I'd like to see either Maxpac or AK46 with Pleks, but right now DD is doing a good job of finding Maxpac and Eller and Ak46 have worked well together. But you have to do something to get your #1 centre going. Here's what I'd like to see right now:

Cammy-Pleks-Cole

MaxPac-DD-Gionta

Moen-Eller-Ak46

Palushaj-Nikoleine-bring up BLunden or someone

When Gomez comes back:

Cammy-Pleks-AK46

Maxpac-Eller-DD

Gionta-Gomez-Cole

Moen-Nikolinen-Blunden/Palushaj

Don't know how long White is out for, but I'd put him into Blunden/Palushaj spot at that time.

Those lines look decent while Gomez is out, but when he returns, which of Cole and Gio plays the right side? Cole is a great right winger, and he should stay there.

[illWill]

I don't see any point in hypothetically putting together "lines". If they don't work right away they will be broken up, and if they do work, they will just eventually be broken up anyway when it doesn't produce. Coaches don't have patience anymore in this day and age. When their 7 figure job is constantly on the line, they will do whatever they can to change and get a spark. And also with injuries being so rampant in this NHL, it is near impossible to keep combinations together. I guess it can be fun to discuss what "should" be done if we were the coach though.

[Commandant]

Those lines look decent while Gomez is out, but when he returns, which of Cole and Gio plays the right side? Cole is a great right winger, and he should stay there.

You've also got the issue that both MaxPac and DD are LWs, or at least DD has only played at LW when he plays on the wing

[TurdBurglar]

When their 7 figure job is constantly on the line, they will do whatever they can to change and get a spark.

I don't believe their job is constantly on the line. If that were true, JM would have already been gone. Anyone else getting sick of the blown 2 goal leads because of JM's attitude to only go on offense on a counter attck when up by 2? My opinion is this is the regular season, a single game doesn't mean anything really. Why not keep pressure on from puck drop until it's over? Regular season games are not playoffs, so why go into that defensive shell when your up by 2 just because your winning. JM said offense is the best defense, but his actions behind the bench tell a different story.

[Commandant]

Once again we assume that JM is the reason the team goes into a defensive shell.... which has been shown many, many times to be a faulty assumption.

[DON]

13 showed his true colours on the 2nd goal against, one gritty hard working team player!

Loved Price's reaction and profanity post game, poor bastard got the team 1 point anyway.

great to see Kostitsyn back and Cole just seems to be getting better all the time

I think Pacioretty will get fine only

[bar]

Once again we assume that JM is the reason the team goes into a defensive shell.... which has been shown many, many times to be a faulty assumption.

Hmm...I'll bite...where has this be shown to be faulty? I don't have proof to the contrary but I have never seen proof that it is NOT JMs fault.

To be honest, they play a defensive shell ANYWAY so there's not much of a leap to say they go into a even more defensive shell.

[bar]

About the hit last night...what bugs me about Letang is that he ducked his head, that right there should mitigate any suspension, Pax as a player controls his body, he does not control his opponents, it's similar to a player going to check someone and they just spin around at the last second to show their back, who's at fault there? I really think Crosby should have been suspended for elbowing Foligno, give him 2 games for hypocrasy.

[Commandant]

Hmm...I'll bite...where has this be shown to be faulty? I don't have proof to the contrary but I have never seen proof that it is NOT JMs fault.

To be honest, they play a defensive shell ANYWAY so there's not much of a leap to say they go into a even more defensive shell.

Well we have Kirk Muller saying to the media multiple times that it is Not the coaches' instructions to the team to go into a shell with the lead and he was yelling on the bench to not have them do so.

We have JM coming out and saying the same thing this year after Muller has left.

We have the Habs who have done this same defensive shell with a lead, under Gainey, under Carbonneau, and under Julien since the lockout, despite heavy personnel changes.

We also see the same thing happen to teams at all levels, whether it be the Olympics (Canada vs USA gold meda, Canada vs Slovakia semi-final), the WJC (Canada vs Russia Gold Medal) and the NHL; all this with different coaches, and different players, infact some of the best in the world.

When people are questionned, Babcock says the coaches didn't tell Team Canada to go into a defensive shell. As does nearly every coach in this scenario.

Seems to me, its human nature at work... the team leading doesn't want to make a mistake and the team trailing starts pressing harder. Its not a coaching strategy of all these guys, it just happens.

You'd think that it wouldn't be happening all across the hockey world, and even to coaches who preach a more offensive strategy, with superior talent to what we see in Montreal... if it were a strategy unique to JM.

Given that, I don't think JM is lying when he says his strategy has not been to change the game plan with a 2 goal lead.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Well we have Kirk Muller saying to the media multiple times that it is Not the coaches' instructions to the team to go into a shell with the lead and he was yelling on the bench to not have them do so.

We have JM coming out and saying the same thing this year after Muller has left.

We have the Habs who have done this same defensive shell with a lead, under Gainey, under Carbonneau, and under Julien since the lockout, despite heavy personnel changes.

We also see the same thing happen to teams at all levels, whether it be the Olympics (Canada vs USA gold meda, Canada vs Slovakia semi-final), the WJC (Canada vs Russia Gold Medal) and the NHL; all this with different coaches, and different players, infact some of the best in the world.

When people are questionned, Babcock says the coaches didn't tell Team Canada to go into a defensive shell. As does nearly every coach in this scenario.

Seems to me, its human nature at work... the team leading doesn't want to make a mistake and the team trailing starts pressing harder. Its not a coaching strategy of all these guys, it just happens.

You'd think that it wouldn't be happening all across the hockey world, and even to coaches who preach a more offensive strategy, with superior talent to what we see in Montreal... if it were a strategy unique to JM.

Given that, I don't think JM is lying when he says his strategy has not been to change the game plan with a 2 goal lead.

Well said.

[TurdBurglar]

It is a strategy, all teams in all levels of hockey use it because it usually works. The problem is you have JM using a defensive strategy and then when leading he wants more of a shell. Yes, Muller was yelling on the bench, but was it because they were playing a perfect shell? No, he was yelling because the shell wasn't as good as they want it to be.

I've played many games of hockey, never professionally admittedly, but I have heard from coaches when we're ahead in an important game to dump the puck, don't take chances. That is a strategy adjustment, that is what is going on with the habs. Every blown 2 goal lead except the Pittsburg game, their shot count drops dramatically once they have the lead. The reason is because their concern is to not being scored on, because thats the instructions the coach gave them.

[Commandant]

So your theory is that Muller and Martin are both lying to us?

And another coach would come in and do things differently? Despite the fact that even someone who is called among the best in the league by most pundits (Babcock)... had the same strategy with the best players in Canada?

I think if you look at games where a team takes a lead into the third period... you will see that the trailing team outshoots the team with the lead in 75-80% of games. Its just the way things usually go, the team who is losing always presses and the team who is ahead sits back.

I have no doubt the Habs coaches discourage particularly risky chances when they have the lead, as they should and as should every team in the league... but I don't think they tell them to go into a total shell and not put on any pressure whatsoever, either.

[brobin]

So your theory is that Muller and Martin are both lying to us?

And another coach would come in and do things differently? Despite the fact that even someone who is called among the best in the league by most pundits (Babcock)... had the same strategy with the best players in Canada?

I think if you look at games where a team takes a lead into the third period... you will see that the trailing team outshoots the team with the lead in 75-80% of games. Its just the way things usually go, the team who is losing always presses and the team who is ahead sits back.

I have no doubt the Habs coaches discourage particularly risky chances when they have the lead, as they should and as should every team in the league... but I don't think they tell them to go into a total shell and not put on any pressure whatsoever, either.

If JM is not changing the strategy, then he is apparently very ineffective at getting the players to follow the strategy he wants. Sometimes it isn't that he tells them to change, but perhaps the young guys have seen what happens to their peers when they take a chance with a lead and make a mistake. Actions speak louder then words.

[bar]

If JM is not changing the strategy, then he is apparently very ineffective at getting the players to follow the strategy he wants. Sometimes it isn't that he tells them to change, but perhaps the young guys have seen what happens to their peers when they take a chance with a lead and make a mistake. Actions speak louder then words.

i was just going to post that. I am one of those that want a coaching change because I do not like JMs style personally, and this is purely from a fan perspective, but the JM hockey teams are not exciting to watch. As Brobin says, it's not much of a leap for JMs players to see how he treats mistakes (with severe benchings), for them to play passive.

[Willey101]

I don't think Pacioretty will be suspended however I think he should.

Pacioretty is not a physical player. Way too often he'll be in on the fore check and then ultimately peel off the defender a dn never make contact. He averages basically 1 hit per game, basically repeatedly waits for that one opportunity and then hits a guy.

Against Pittsburgh again, just one 1 and I hate to say it but I think he tried to hurt him. Perhaps not with a head shot but certainly make him pay for cutting across the ice with his head down.

It was cheap and dirty and it' the exact type of hit Cooke has been chastised for which absolutely must be eliminated from the game.

[Commandant]

If JM is not changing the strategy, then he is apparently very ineffective at getting the players to follow the strategy he wants. Sometimes it isn't that he tells them to change, but perhaps the young guys have seen what happens to their peers when they take a chance with a lead and make a mistake. Actions speak louder then words.

And yet it happens to nearly every coach in the NHL, plus the guys at the Olympics, plus the World Juniors... so there goes that theory.

[Willey101]

And yet it happens to nearly every coach in the NHL, plus the guys at the Olympics, plus the World Juniors... so there goes that theory.

Boudreau and Maurice fired today.

I can't stand Martin but can;t deny that his system is effective at winning. 9th all time for victories among coaches is a pretty impressive feat. My personal beef with him is that I find he doesn;t use his players according to their talents but rather demand they conform to his system. Some players like Plekanec, Moen strive on this but guys like Cammalleri and Gomez are lost.

Again my beef is either to find the right coach for these players or change to players to fit the coach.