C-Love Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I have now changed my focus. I truly believe this team is underperforming because their coach has lost the room. This team is not all that different from last years squad, if anything they should be better as their young "up and comers" have another year under their belts. There should be no reason in the world why they were dominated by the worst team in the NHL. That was embarrassing to watch, 8 minutes into the second period and we had one shot on net and who was the other teams goalie? Our BACKUP IN HAMILTON LAST YEAR!!!! Are you kidding me, we couldn't put 4, 5, or 8 goals past Curtis Sanford????? Do to Pierre Gauthier's incompetence and lack of awareness regarding Martin's inability to lead this team he needs to go. I still don't know who his replacement should be, but it should be someone, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 It was reported on RDS that G Molson has just endorsed his management team. That sir, is the kiss of death. Stay tuned, it will take care of itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 When a coach loses the room.... the team leaves no doubt. Here is what it looks like when the coach "loses the room" The 2009 Habs when Carbo lost the room <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/oTNeF-uIK6Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> and <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/k_pzUOoxkfQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> or more recently in another city <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BQeL59An32s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> and <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/D2DEiwBJemE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> A coach that loses the room watches his team completely and utterly give up on him... not tie games in the last minute. A team that quits on its coach, LEAVES NO DOUBT whatsoever that this is what they are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Love Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share Posted December 7, 2011 I disagree totally, I think it is evident that the team is not playing for their coach when they seem utterly disinterested in making passes, or getting shots on net. I think many of these guys are putting in half an effort only because of the backlashing that comes from the media, it is very evident that they are not playing a tight system, or have any kind of desire to push the play, last night, their powerplay looked horrendous. If I didn't know better, I would think they were an AHL team playing against a top notch NHL team, not the Canadiens playing the "statistically" worst team in the NHL. This coming from a team that only a couple of years ago had the number 1 powerplay in the NHL with essentially the same lineup, and I'm sure we can all agree that Wisniewski is not that good of a point man that he could come back in here and we'd have the number one powerplay again. This is a real sign of the team not wanting to play for their coach, but not wanting to embarress themselves either. I think it's a shame that we don't go after the best possible GM/Coach that is available as at the end of the day we all want to see a winning club, who gives a shit what language he speaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I honestly can't tell if they quit on JM or not. I mean Gomez (injured), Gionta, Cammi the 3 highest paid players sure look like they don't care. they certainly aren't producing. Cole, Pac, Desharnais, Eller to name a few seem to play hard every night. Price is at the top of his game every night, it stinks to be him. This team is NOT the same team over the past 2 years, the defense is way worse. To me it's a bottom 5 in the league currently. not to say they don't have a few good players, but as a group they are really bad. The offense is actually producing less then were the past 2 years. So i'm not sure what needs to be done, trade? can the coaching staff and GM and start over? I don't know. I do know watching this bunch is not fun, the will not make the playoffs, and with Price they won't get a lottery pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 When you team is in the top 10 in shots, 5on 5 play, blocked shots and the PK then I am sorry but the coach has not lost the room. Those are the hardest minutes for players to play and blocked shots and the PK specifically require complete sacrifice of their bodies for the good of the team. What is happening right now is a lack of a powerplay. Remove 1 goal a game which they were always doing and it spells disaster but add that goal and we likely have 2-3 more victories and are sitting comfortably in a playoff position. The only thing the coach is doing wrong right now is with some of his players. Selecting Leblanc and then playing him 4 minutes for instance is a mistake. continuing to go to Weber is a mistake. Scrambling the Paciorett-DD-Cole line is a mistake. What we need to do is make a player move and get rid of Weber because he has lost his confidence here. Let's trade him for a 4th liner and add that little bit of missing toughness and let's give St-Denis a chance until Campoli and then ultimately Markov are ready. P.S. White says he is 3 weeks away from a return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 When you team is in the top 10 in shots, 5on 5 play, blocked shots and the PK then I am sorry but the coach has not lost the room. Those are the hardest minutes for players to play and blocked shots and the PK specifically require complete sacrifice of their bodies for the good of the team. What is happening right now is a lack of a powerplay. Remove 1 goal a game which they were always doing and it spells disaster but add that goal and we likely have 2-3 more victories and are sitting comfortably in a playoff position. Agreed 100% with both of these points. The only thing the coach is doing wrong right now is with some of his players. Selecting Leblanc and then playing him 4 minutes for instance is a mistake. continuing to go to Weber is a mistake. Scrambling the Paciorett-DD-Cole line is a mistake. I think this game was a reward for Leblanc. I think he got his one game at home in front of a Montreal crowd and we'll see him sent down shortly. Weber probably takes those 4th line minutes (for now, more on that later). I didn't mind scrambling the line because Cammy - DD - Cole worked last week and having a big body with Pleks was nice in theory. It didn't work and Martin corrected it in the third period... but hindsight is 20/20. What we need to do is make a player move and get rid of Weber because he has lost his confidence here. Let's trade him for a 4th liner and add that little bit of missing toughness and let's give St-Denis a chance until Campoli and then ultimately Markov are ready.P.S. White says he is 3 weeks away from a return. I'd play Weber on the fourth and St. Denis on Defence right now. When Campoli returns, St. Denis to the minors. When Spacek and White return, White pushes Weber out of the lineup and thats the time to trade him. With White relatively close, I'd try and trade Weber in an O'Byrne-esque move where I'd be adding a forward prospect rather than a fourth liner. Moen - Noko - White is fine on the fourth line (Gomez return pushes Moen down). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Agreed 100% with both of these points. I think this game was a reward for Leblanc. I think he got his one game at home in front of a Montreal crowd and we'll see him sent down shortly. Weber probably takes those 4th line minutes (for now, more on that later). I didn't mind scrambling the line because Cammy - DD - Cole worked last week and having a big body with Pleks was nice in theory. It didn't work and Martin corrected it in the third period... but hindsight is 20/20. I'd play Weber on the fourth and St. Denis on Defence right now. When Campoli returns, St. Denis to the minors. When Spacek and White return, White pushes Weber out of the lineup and thats the time to trade him. With White relatively close, I'd try and trade Weber in an O'Byrne-esque move where I'd be adding a forward prospect rather than a fourth liner. Moen - Noko - White is fine on the fourth line (Gomez return pushes Moen down). Id personally rather go with Blunden on the 4th than Weber. I absolutely despise him. I personally dont see him having any value however. I think getting a 4th or a 5th is wishful thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Id personally rather go with Blunden on the 4th than Weber. I absolutely despise him. I personally dont see him having any value however. I think getting a 4th or a 5th is wishful thinking. Teams are always looking for young defencemen.... he's also right handed which is rare in everyone else's system (though Montreal has a plethora of these guys)... and as such commands a premium. Add in his age and Puck Moving ability and he's worth at least as much as O'byrne was last year IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I don't see it. O'byrne was 6'5 and physical. That is a commodity that many teams welcome. Small, Speedy, d-men who struggle defensively can be had at any moment. There is a reason why guys like Murphy, Bergeron, can't stick with team despite having great offensive talent. Size wins out in this league 9 times out of 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I like the job Gauthier has done up to this point, for the most part. On paper this team looks like it could contend for a playoff spot no problem. He brought in the power forward with speed that everyone has been crying for since I can remember. He kept Price over Halak, which at the time was shocking to say the least. He resigned Pleks to a decent cap hit. He retained Markov, if he didn't at the time there would be an angry mob with pitchforks on his front lawn 24/7.....and because he is a hell of a hockey player and will help this team immensely when he returns. I think he has put together/kept together a pretty good team, I don't think he is the problem here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 he acquired some very big bodies this past year. From bringing in Emelin to acquiring Mitera, Blunden top signings Woywitka, Cole. I mean he brought in people who filled a need. I was bitterly angry when he was given the reigns but actually like all that he has done including bringing back markov which I thought was necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 PG made some decent moves but I also don't like how he has managed our assets. We also seem to be on the losing end of trades in small ways. That said, I will judge him based on how he handles this season. If we suck like this and he trades prospects and young guys for temporary help, I say fire him. If he trades away guys he isn't going to sign and gets prospects, picks, etc, then good on him. We need a plan to get to the top 4 of the east, not a plan to hover around 7th to 12th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 PG made some decent moves but I also don't like how he has managed our assets. We also seem to be on the losing end of trades in small ways. That said, I will judge him based on how he handles this season. If we suck like this and he trades prospects and young guys for temporary help, I say fire him. If he trades away guys he isn't going to sign and gets prospects, picks, etc, then good on him. We need a plan to get to the top 4 of the east, not a plan to hover around 7th to 12th. A lot of us expect this team to compete for top 4 in the East. I don't think spending draft picks (not 1st rounders) on rental players is a bad idea. I definitely think this team can get its act together when healthy. That being said, a lottery pick would be huge for this team. It's pretty rare that a roster this deep gets their chance to grab a potential star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I still say... do nothing until February. Markov is back in January. Let this team sink or swim with what they have. If Markov is the answer we want him to be, and things look good, then try to find a 2nd line centre at the deadline. If the team continues to suck... sell at the deadline. No need to rush this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 A lot of us expect this team to compete for top 4 in the East. I don't think spending draft picks (not 1st rounders) on rental players is a bad idea. I definitely think this team can get its act together when healthy. That being said, a lottery pick would be huge for this team. It's pretty rare that a roster this deep gets their chance to grab a potential star. That is the assessment that needs to be made. I don't see us a top 4 team. I guess if you do, then its either bad coaching or injuries. Doesn't really matter. In a month, I think we will know one way or another. If we are still out of the playoffs, then build for next year. If he instead trades picks and prospects for a rental player to squeeze in, I will have officially joined the "Fire PG" crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I'm kinda glad this thread came up. I think it's ridiculous to fire Gauthier because he hasn't fired JM; and I won't bother reiterating the reasons why JM should not be fired (yet). Some have been mentioned in this thread, thankfully. My question is this. Is this organization truly committed to doing everything possible to ice a contender right now? Or is it happy to have a team that's good enough to have shot if it stays healthy and gets some breaks (which is what, on paper, we seem to have), while hoping we can get better in the future? Two cases in point: the #2 C slot, and Wisniewski. It is obvious for all to see that our #2C slot is a mess. Neither DD nor Eller, God love 'em both, qualify as truly serious options there if the goal is to contend. A Gomez who has returned to his pre-2010-11 form might qualify. Then again, his salary is a major impediment to improving the team in other areas. So fans can well ask why the team has not moved heaven and earth to fix this problem. Now, maybe we are trying to do so. But there's certainly no indication of that. And I do not believe that a Philly, Boston, Vancouver, Chicago, San Jose or other team with serious designs on winning a Stanley Cup would put up with this situation: they'd launch a bold, risky strike for the brass ring, cap be damned. Why aren't we? Wisniewski: I realize that the deal he eventually signed was probably unrealistic for us given the cap. But I cannot understand why the Canadiens made no serious overtures to Wiz last season. To me, it was a no-brainer that IF we could keep both Wiz and Markov we would have one of the very best defence corps in the entire NHL - which would both drive our offence up several notches and further protect Price. I can accept losing Wiz, but I have trouble accepting that a team which was really serious about winning right now would happily let an elite offensive defenceman walk without even sussing him out about conditions under which he'd stay. That doesn't speak to an organization that is truly urgent about contending. Final thought: back when Gainey blew up the team in 2010, I suggested that the new team was a 'rebuild in disguise.' These guys were here to keep us competitive while we brought along the nucleus of youth that would allow us eventually to contend. So now I ask: are we seeing this play out? Is gauthier's REAL agenda to cross his fingers in the present and hope for better 2-3 years down the line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I still say... do nothing until February. Markov is back in January. Let this team sink or swim with what they have. If Markov is the answer we want him to be, and things look good, then try to find a 2nd line centre at the deadline. If the team continues to suck... sell at the deadline. No need to rush this. Ah.. just saw this.. I agree. This is my point. We need to make a realistic decision before the deadline and act accordingly. That is a key decision point for PG. The next one is who he does in the off season and with signing our top players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 My question is this. Is this organization truly committed to doing everything possible to ice a contender right now? Or is it happy to have a team that's good enough to have shot if it stays healthy and gets some breaks (which is what, on paper, we seem to have), while hoping we can get better in the future? Two cases in point: the #2 C slot, and Wisniewski. To expand on your thoughts.There is a glaring hole at C. Unfortunately, that's not new. That's not on JM, that's on PG to fill that hole. That's failed. This does not mean lack of action, it simply means the end result in whatever action PG may have taken is failure. It almost seems they were banking on Gomez's "rededication" to play itself out. As a fan, I was hoping it would. As a GM, I should have a valid personnel plan in place should that fail. Plex/Gomez were ok in year 1 of the rebuild-in-disguise, but that appears to be an anomaly. DD should be on the wing, he was a fun player to watch on the wing in the playoffs last year until he got hurt. Eller, I think has the potential to get there, but not in his second season. The D last year was aided by the addition of Wiz about halfway through the season. But still, no Markov, no Gorges, no Spacek for a 1/4 of the year. There were somewhat capable file-ins in Sopel, Mara and (gulp) Picard. That said, with those injuries last year, it is inexcusable that the Habs went into the season knowingly missing its #1 dman, a recovering ACL surgery that thankfully has help in Gorges, and aging vets in Spacek and Gill. 1 injury meant the team would be escalating an untested rookie into its top 4. I can't blame the coach that Diaz-Weber-Emelin are half of the defense corp. Gill really should be a PK specialist, but has to play more minutes due to injuries. (Granted he was brought back due to his intangibles, not his play.) Funny how folks thought the Habs were stacked on D before the season only to find out the cupboard is rather bare. That falls on PG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I feel nothing for Pierre Gauthier. He and Martin bore me to tears. It's completely different from Bob Gainey, who I highly respected. However, I'm surprised we have a thread about firing him. Martin I can understand, but Gauthier? Does he get fired because he put all his eggs in the Markov basket? I love the Cole signing, time will tell if it's for too long. Campoli seemed good. I even liked the Blair Betts acquisition. Sadly, injuries are the name of the game. I just don't believe this team needs a mega shakeup like firing the coach and GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 To expand on your thoughts.There is a glaring hole at C. Unfortunately, that's not new. That's not on JM, that's on PG to fill that hole. That's failed. This does not mean lack of action, it simply means the end result in whatever action PG may have taken is failure. It almost seems they were banking on Gomez's "rededication" to play itself out. As a fan, I was hoping it would. As a GM, I should have a valid personnel plan in place should that fail. Plex/Gomez were ok in year 1 of the rebuild-in-disguise, but that appears to be an anomaly. DD should be on the wing, he was a fun player to watch on the wing in the playoffs last year until he got hurt. Eller, I think has the potential to get there, but not in his second season. The D last year was aided by the addition of Wiz about halfway through the season. But still, no Markov, no Gorges, no Spacek for a 1/4 of the year. There were somewhat capable file-ins in Sopel, Mara and (gulp) Picard. That said, with those injuries last year, it is inexcusable that the Habs went into the season knowingly missing its #1 dman, a recovering ACL surgery that thankfully has help in Gorges, and aging vets in Spacek and Gill. 1 injury meant the team would be escalating an untested rookie into its top 4. I can't blame the coach that Diaz-Weber-Emelin are half of the defense corp. Gill really should be a PK specialist, but has to play more minutes due to injuries. (Granted he was brought back due to his intangibles, not his play.) Funny how folks thought the Habs were stacked on D before the season only to find out the cupboard is rather bare. That falls on PG. Spot on. Sure, the acquisition of Gomer meant the organization had to give some time to see if he panned out as that second centre we desperately needed, and I'm disappointed he's been injured so often considering he looks better than at any point last year. However the bottom line is that he's just not what we need. I would argue, in fact, that we need a #1 centre, the kind of almost-elite guy the $7M would bring. This allows Plex far more space and less responsibility, which probably makes him an even better player considering the opposition's best D would be occupied with the new guy. I firmly believe this is our #1 need, and has been for well over a decade. I also firmly believe that this is the area the organization *must* take a risk with in order to fill it. If it costs you a first rounder along with assets, I think you have to do it. As for defence, there's no doubt we've been decimated. I'm not as convinced that tires weren't adequately kicked with Wiz or Hamr, so I can't complain about that part. That PG has managed to find short-term serviceable replacements is reasonably solid so far. I'm not even bitter that he went into the season knowing Markov was going to be out for a month or two (no one could have predicted his recent set-back with any kind of certainty, a year out with that injury would have been considered standard). It offered the club the ability to continue to allow for Subban's development and with the addition of Campoli (an unfortunate injury case) would offer the Habs a quite reasonable back end. When and if Markov comes back (I'm assuming when), we'll have him, Subban (two top-two guys; Markov being elite-ish), Gorges and Emelin, the latter of which is improving in leaps and bonds and, paired with either of the first two, makes for a solid top-four. Then you have any of Campoli, Gill, Spacek, Diaz, and Weber. IMO PG has done a solid job defensively - particularly when you consider that Tinordi and Beaulieu are still on the ups. Bottom line for me is that PG deserves a little more time. If that defence can get healthy, then I think he's required to make a very bold move to address that centre issue by the deadline. If he can do anything in that respect, I think this team is one of the ones that can compete for the Cup. Of course, this *requires* a change at coach - whether through Martin learning to adapt and improve his "game" or an actual new coach, I don't care. (I personally believe the latter is the answer, because I don't think Martin has an adaptable coaching style, but I would *love* to be proved incorrect.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 To expand on your thoughts.There is a glaring hole at C. Unfortunately, that's not new. That's not on JM, that's on PG to fill that hole. That's failed. This does not mean lack of action, it simply means the end result in whatever action PG may have taken is failure. It almost seems they were banking on Gomez's "rededication" to play itself out. As a fan, I was hoping it would. As a GM, I should have a valid personnel plan in place should that fail. Plex/Gomez were ok in year 1 of the rebuild-in-disguise, but that appears to be an anomaly. DD should be on the wing, he was a fun player to watch on the wing in the playoffs last year until he got hurt. Eller, I think has the potential to get there, but not in his second season. The D last year was aided by the addition of Wiz about halfway through the season. But still, no Markov, no Gorges, no Spacek for a 1/4 of the year. There were somewhat capable file-ins in Sopel, Mara and (gulp) Picard. That said, with those injuries last year, it is inexcusable that the Habs went into the season knowingly missing its #1 dman, a recovering ACL surgery that thankfully has help in Gorges, and aging vets in Spacek and Gill. 1 injury meant the team would be escalating an untested rookie into its top 4. I can't blame the coach that Diaz-Weber-Emelin are half of the defense corp. Gill really should be a PK specialist, but has to play more minutes due to injuries. (Granted he was brought back due to his intangibles, not his play.) Funny how folks thought the Habs were stacked on D before the season only to find out the cupboard is rather bare. That falls on PG. last night we iced essentially our #2 gorges, #3 subban, #6 gill, #7 emelin, #8 diaz and #9 weber defencemen at the start of the season. #1markov #4 campoli #5 spacek all not or barely playing thus far.... and its been that way all season.. it took JM all but the last 5/6 games to realize that emelin is better then diaz and weber and finally gave him 20+ minutes. i believe that they are fine back there and will strengthen instantly when campoli and spacek return followed by markov in 6 more weeks!! with that said subban had a horrible game yesterday and weber and diaz are just to small and to soft! they constantly turn the puck over because they are to busy trying to avoid contact by doing spin moves and what not, avoiding checks instead of securing puck movement and taking the hit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 my question is it allowed to trade players, picks and cash in a trade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Well Colin, you're on fire today in my books. I should just requote what you are saying, as we share the same opinion on this topic. Yes, just imagine if we were somehow to miraculously trade Gomez and his $7m salary for a true number 1 center who earns the same amount. Say, Gomez, Weber, Gallagher and a first rounder for Eric Staal. I know that would never happen but if something like that did, we would definitely be considered serious contenders. That is, if Markov and the rest are healthy as well. Although Pleks is awesome at what he does, he isn't the prototypical #1 center and would be better suited as #2. This team isn't that far off from being really really dangerous. Look how great it could potentially look. Tell me that isn't a Stanley Cup contender. Pacioretty Staal Gionta Cammalleri Pleks Kostitsyn Desharnais Eller Cole Moen Noke White Markov Emelin Subban Gill Campoli Gorges Price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 my question is it allowed to trade players, picks and cash in a trade? Cash cannot be moved in deals. This is something that I think will be a big discussion point in the next CBA though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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