The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Who does Staal play with? Ryan White? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Staal since the lockout has averaged 79 points and 36 goals per year. He never gets injured, won a Cup and Olympic gold. It doesn't get much better than that. take out 2006 which is an extreme outlier and watch what happens to his average. That was 6 years ago now. Was a season when PPs were through the roof, thornton and jager both approached 130 pts. Cheechoo had 56 goals, Gomez had 30 goals, Gionta 48. Throughout the league 2006 was a year of silly offensive production, and is not representative of what we should expect and is also so far in the past that its relevance should be questionned when its not been repeated. While its true that we hope the number 3 pick becomes as good as staal, the number three pick will be paid about 5 million less than Stall for the next little while, plus you are throwing in another top 6 center in plekanec. I'd rather keep the pick and plekanec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 take out 2006 which is an extreme outlier and watch what happens to his average. That was 6 years ago now. Was a season when PPs were through the roof, thornton and jager both approached 130 pts. Cheechoo had 56 goals, Gomez had 30 goals, Gionta 48. Throughout the league 2006 was a year of silly offensive production, and is not representative of what we should expect and is also so far in the past that its relevance should be questionned when its not been repeated. While its true that we hope the number 3 pick becomes as good as staal, the number three pick will be paid about 5 million less than Stall for the next little while, plus you are throwing in another top 6 center in plekanec. I'd rather keep the pick and plekanec. Okay, we will disregard a 100 point season so we can further prove your point. Even if we take that out, he still averages 34 goals per year and 75 points. Plekanec to me is a reflection of this franchise, good but not good enough. He is having an absolutely abysmal year. He is supposedly so responsible defensively but yet sports a sparkling -22 +/-, which is miles ahead of anybody else on the team who have been there all year. I am comfortable with DD and Eller filling in the #2 and #3 spots down the middle, but an upgrade at #1 is needed badly. As far as other team needs, that is up for another discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Okay, we will disregard a 100 point season so we can further prove your point. As stated, I'm not just throwing it out for the sake of throwing it out. There are legitimate reasons - 6 years ago and not repeated - 7 100 pt scorers that year... 1 last year - winner of the art ross had 125 pts that year, last year had 104 Scoring was definitely inflated that year, there isn't much doubt about it. We don't look at Gionta as a 45 goal man. We shouldn't see Staal as a 100 pt man either. Even if we take that out, he still averages 34 goals per year and 75 points. Plekanec to me is a reflection of this franchise, good but not good enough. He is having an absolutely abysmal year. He is supposedly so responsible defensively but yet sports a sparkling -22 +/-, which is miles ahead of anybody else on the team who have been there all year. I am comfortable with DD and Eller filling in the #2 and #3 spots down the middle, but an upgrade at #1 is needed badly. As far as other team needs, that is up for another discussion. Eric Staal is -24 over the last two seasons. Tomas Plekanec -14. Plekanec has had a rough year, no doubt about that, but he is also playing against the other teams top lines, and has had 0 consistency in his wingers. His shutdown ability in the #2 hole will be huge, and with the contracts given out recently to Ruutu and Grabovski his 5 million dollar pay day is very good value there. Staal is an upgrade on Plekanec, but the upgrade is only about 10-15 pts in any given year, and he's not as good defensively. I'm not againsts a Plekanec/Staal swap because at the end of things it is still an upgrade. However the upgrade isn't so big that I'm willing to throw in the #3 and possibly #2 or #1 overall pick for it. Look at the history of top 3 picks in the last 10 years, the vast majority go on to be 1st line or top pairing players with only a few exceptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Okay, we will disregard a 100 point season so we can further prove your point. Even if we take that out, he still averages 34 goals per year and 75 points. Plekanec to me is a reflection of this franchise, good but not good enough. He is having an absolutely abysmal year. He is supposedly so responsible defensively but yet sports a sparkling -22 +/-, which is miles ahead of anybody else on the team who have been there all year. I am comfortable with DD and Eller filling in the #2 and #3 spots down the middle, but an upgrade at #1 is needed badly. As far as other team needs, that is up for another discussion. I don't think your idea is crazy or anything. I just think it'd be a mistake for the reasons Commandant enumerates. The post I'm quoting here is revealing, though; you're juding Plekanec based on this disastrous year. But this year is unusually bad, and he should no more be under-estimated because of it than Staal should be over-estimated because of his 100-point explosion. Looking at him objectively, with decent linemates Pleks should be slotted in for around 60-70 points while offering an outstanding two-way game. That would give us two quality C and remove the need for costly trades like the one you propose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 As stated, I'm not just throwing it out for the sake of throwing it out. There are legitimate reasons - 6 years ago and not repeated - 7 100 pt scorers that year... 1 last year - winner of the art ross had 125 pts that year, last year had 104 Scoring was definitely inflated that year, there isn't much doubt about it. We don't look at Gionta as a 45 goal man. We shouldn't see Staal as a 100 pt man either. Eric Staal is -24 over the last two seasons. Tomas Plekanec -14. Plekanec has had a rough year, no doubt about that, but he is also playing against the other teams top lines, and has had 0 consistency in his wingers. His shutdown ability in the #2 hole will be huge, and with the contracts given out recently to Ruutu and Grabovski his 5 million dollar pay day is very good value there. Staal is an upgrade on Plekanec, but the upgrade is only about 10-15 pts in any given year, and he's not as good defensively. I'm not againsts a Plekanec/Staal swap because at the end of things it is still an upgrade. However the upgrade isn't so big that I'm willing to throw in the #3 and possibly #2 or #1 overall pick for it. Look at the history of top 3 picks in the last 10 years, the vast majority go on to be 1st line or top pairing players with only a few exceptions. To again compare the two, since the lockout, Plekanec has averaged 20 goals and 52 points per year. So your 10-15 point difference in any given year is in fact 20-25 points in any given year. Staal has been the model of consistency throughout his career, while Pleks has been the opposite. How quickly we forget his stellar 39 point campaign a few seasons ago. Plekanec should not be considered a #1 center on any team in this league. My idea is based on the fact that we have too many secondary centers and zero studs. Yes, he would fit in nicely as a #2/shutdown role but the emergence of Eller makes me believe that Pleks wouldn't be missed as much as some think. Obviously trading away a top 5 draft pick is questionable because most develop into front line talent but that's the price it costs to acquire a PPG center, who is only 27 years old himself. How long will it take for a Grigorenko or Galneychuk to develop into a #1 for this team? To lead this team deep into the playoffs? More than a few years away. This team already has lots of young talent waiting to crack the lineup and the young core already in place is ready to perform now. Personally, I would rather not wait till 2016 to get excited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I don't think it will take 4 years for our draft pick to become ready. Forwards mature faster than defencemen. Stamkos was a star in his 2nd season. Seguin is pretty damn good in just his 2nd season in the league. The 05-06 year for Staal was his 2nd NHL year (+ 1 AHL due to the lockout). Matt Duchene John Tavares Taylor Hall Patrick Kane Jonathan Toews These guys are all top 3 picks at fwd and have impact very, very quickly. The other thing you have to look at is pay scale. Staal is an 8.25 million dollar cap hit (or basically the same cap hit as Plekanec + our ELC draft pick). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I don't think your idea is crazy or anything. I just think it'd be a mistake for the reasons Commandant enumerates. The post I'm quoting here is revealing, though; you're juding Plekanec based on this disastrous year. But this year is unusually bad, and he should no more be under-estimated because of it than Staal should be over-estimated because of his 100-point explosion. Looking at him objectively, with decent linemates Pleks should be slotted in for around 60-70 points while offering an outstanding two-way game. That would give us two quality C and remove the need for costly trades like the one you propose. I'm judging Plekanec based on his career as a whole. He has been inconsistent throughout. He has never been the go to guy when we need a goal. It bothers me how he has been protected from fan's outrage this season. We all throw our GM, coach, Cammy, AK, Subban etc under the bus, but hardly any mention of Mr.-22. Why should Pleks be slotted for 60-70 points per season if he had decent linemates? Shouldn't a player of that caliber be able to make those around him better? He shouldn't need others to make him better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I'm judging Plekanec based on his career as a whole. He has been inconsistent throughout. He has never been the go to guy when we need a goal. It bothers me how he has been protected from fan's outrage this season. We all throw our GM, coach, Cammy, AK, Subban etc under the bus, but hardly any mention of Mr.-22. Why should Pleks be slotted for 60-70 points per season if he had decent linemates? Shouldn't a player of that caliber be able to make those around him better? He shouldn't need others to make him better. Pleks has 69, 39, 70 and 57 points since becoming a top-6 player. Is that the height of consistency? No. But throwing out the aberrant 39-point season, which was part of his growing pains (and also a victim of Kovalev's insanity) he's clearly a player who can be realistically slotted for 60-70 points with decent linemates...because that's what he's reliably produced, with decent linemates. Yes, it'd be nice if he was that stud C who can elevate a whole team, but the issue is that I'd rather have Pleks producing 60 points PLUS our 2nd overall pick than Staal. And I don't think the game should be 'throwing people under buses' based on this season or that. We should try to come to a reasoned assessment of a player (or coach's, or GM's) overal value and performance. Such a reasoned assessment, it seems to me, would lead us to peg Pleks as a two-way, 60-70 point player. Similarly, we should peg AK 47 as a deeply unreliable medicority of a player with a nice physical edge, Subban as a stellar young player on a learning curve, Cammy as a guy with top-end potential who wanted out, JM as a good coach who got the most out of his team, and Gauthier as a failure. I just don't subscribe to this punitive attitude where the goal is to jettison anyone who has ever disappointed us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Plekanec is not and never has been hyped as a guy who makes his teammates better. He's not at the level of a Malkin or a Crosby where they will take their linemates and elevate them. He is an effective part of a trio, but he's not the man like that. In the same way, DD is good, but he wouldn't have the same numbers he does without his wingers being the top 2 guys on the team. Pleks can't turn Ryan White, Mathieu Darche and others into goal scorers, thats just beyond his capability. But thats fine, because he is a 5 million dollar guy, not a 10 million dollar guy. In fact seeing Staal's struggles through much this season without Cole, has made me question if he could take chicken ***** and turn it into chicken salad too. Pleks can be the pivot on a good line with other good players. Lets also remember that the -22 also doesn't tell the whole story 1) how many of those minuses are empty net goals against? 2) how many of those minuses are short handed goals against when he was completely misused on the point? 3) his lack of offence this year makes the plus/minus worse... remember there are two parts to plus minus, a plus when you get an even strength goal and a minus when one is against you... not producing offence is a bigger factor in this number being so much worse this year, than is any drop in his defensive play. 4) He gets the toughest asignments night in and night out against the best players on the other team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Pleks has 69, 39, 70 and 57 points since becoming a top-6 player. Is that the height of consistency? No. But throwing out the aberrant 39-point season, which was part of his growing pains (and also a victim of Kovalev's insanity) he's clearly a player who can be realistically slotted for 60-70 points with decent linemates...because that's what he's reliably produced, with decent linemates. Yes, it'd be nice if he was that stud C who can elevate a whole team, but the issue is that I'd rather have Pleks producing 60 points PLUS our 2nd overall pick than Staal. Again, my idea isn't necessarily based on disregarding what Plekanec can do, but more so the fact that we already have a #2 center producing 60 points in DD. And the fact that I believe Eller has shown he can be relied on in many different situations. IMO Eller isn't too far behind Pleks in ability right now, and will surpass him in time. Bourque-Staal-Gionta Pacioretty-DD-Cole -Eller- That looks more like a top contending team to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Lets also remember that the -22 also doesn't tell the whole story 1) how many of those minuses are empty net goals against? 2) how many of those minuses are short handed goals against when he was completely misused on the point? 3) his lack of offence this year makes the plus/minus worse... remember there are two parts to plus minus, a plus when you get an even strength goal and a minus when one is against you... not producing offence is a bigger factor in this number being so much worse this year, than is any drop in his defensive play. 4) He gets the toughest asignments night in and night out against the best players on the other team. 1) Probably around the same as every other year 2) Probably a couple. But let's not blame Pleks for that right? It's someone else's fault. 3) Of course. He isn't producing offensively, you made my point. 4) So you are saying that the tough assignments are getting the best of him? Other team's best players are better than ours, plain and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbp Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 1) Probably around the same as every other year 2) Probably a couple. But let's not blame Pleks for that right? It's someone else's fault. 3) Of course. He isn't producing offensively, you made my point. 4) So you are saying that the tough assignments are getting the best of him? Other team's best players are better than ours, plain and simple. He has had top tier talent like Darche on his wing... or in the past few games White (who i love but he isn't exactly going to score) and Geoffrion (most of the season in the AHL)... Maybe Pleks isn't enough to compensate for the fact his wings are so much weaker then these top lines he is facing... It seems like he is expected to shutdown the opponents solo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 He has had top tier talent like Darche on his wing... or in the past few games White (who i love but he isn't exactly going to score) and Geoffrion (most of the season in the AHL)... Maybe Pleks isn't enough to compensate for the fact his wings are so much weaker then these top lines he is facing... It seems like he is expected to shutdown the opponents solo. That's my point. Our supposed top point producing center is playing with "top tier talent" like Darche. If he is better than DD, than he should be in between Cole and Patches, or at least one of them. Our mentality as a team shouldn't be to shut down the other guy's best players, but for them to want to shut us down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 That's my point. Our supposed top point producing center is playing with "top tier talent" like Darche. If he is better than DD, than he should be in between Cole and Patches, or at least one of them. Our mentality as a team shouldn't be to shut down the other guy's best players, but for them to want to shut us down. Oh how I miss this mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davehab Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 That's my point. Our supposed top point producing center is playing with "top tier talent" like Darche. If he is better than DD, than he should be in between Cole and Patches, or at least one of them. Our mentality as a team shouldn't be to shut down the other guy's best players, but for them to want to shut us down. hopefully with our high pick this year we can obtain this kind of player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 That's my point. Our supposed top point producing center is playing with "top tier talent" like Darche. If he is better than DD, than he should be in between Cole and Patches, or at least one of them. Our mentality as a team shouldn't be to shut down the other guy's best players, but for them to want to shut us down. Is that a problem with Pleks or with Coaching? The coach will be gone, the GM too, should we really trade Pleks and the 1st round pick throwing the baby out with the bath water so to speak? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaboom Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 As stated, I'm not just throwing it out for the sake of throwing it out. There are legitimate reasons - 6 years ago and not repeated - 7 100 pt scorers that year... 1 last year - winner of the art ross had 125 pts that year, last year had 104 Scoring was definitely inflated that year, there isn't much doubt about it. We don't look at Gionta as a 45 goal man. We shouldn't see Staal as a 100 pt man either. Eric Staal is -24 over the last two seasons. Tomas Plekanec -14. Plekanec has had a rough year, no doubt about that, but he is also playing against the other teams top lines, and has had 0 consistency in his wingers. His shutdown ability in the #2 hole will be huge, and with the contracts given out recently to Ruutu and Grabovski his 5 million dollar pay day is very good value there. Staal is an upgrade on Plekanec, but the upgrade is only about 10-15 pts in any given year, and he's not as good defensively. I'm not againsts a Plekanec/Staal swap because at the end of things it is still an upgrade. However the upgrade isn't so big that I'm willing to throw in the #3 and possibly #2 or #1 overall pick for it. Look at the history of top 3 picks in the last 10 years, the vast majority go on to be 1st line or top pairing players with only a few exceptions. I wouldn't make that deal either but one for one staal brings so much more to the table then pleks. Staal makes others around him better and can make his own magic. He is a true first line player pleks is a second line player and a good one at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 1) Probably around the same as every other year 2) Probably a couple. But let's not blame Pleks for that right? It's someone else's fault. 3) Of course. He isn't producing offensively, you made my point. 4) So you are saying that the tough assignments are getting the best of him? Other team's best players are better than ours, plain and simple. 1) Worse record, more close losses, would lead to more empty net goals against. 2) Yeah, lets blame the stupid coaching from Cunneyworth running the PP, that kept putting Pleks on the point when Ray Charles could see it wasn't the best use of his ability. 3) How is he supposed to produce playing with Darche, Moen, Geoffrion, and White? Again, he's a good player, hes not the type of guy who makes his teammates better and guys who make their teammates better are the rarest players in the NHL, the Crosbys, and Malkins. Who else is doing things without linemates? 4) The players who play against the other teams best, usually have the worst +/-, its only natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 1) Worse record, more close losses, would lead to more empty net goals against. 2) Yeah, lets blame the stupid coaching from Cunneyworth running the PP, that kept putting Pleks on the point when Ray Charles could see it wasn't the best use of his ability. 3) How is he supposed to produce playing with Darche, Moen, Geoffrion, and White? Again, he's a good player, hes not the type of guy who makes his teammates better and guys who make their teammates better are the rarest players in the NHL, the Crosbys, and Malkins. Who else is doing things without linemates? 4) The players who play against the other teams best, usually have the worst +/-, its only natural. 1) You are assuming that he is always on the ice during the last minute of play. And just because we have a worse record this year and a lot of close games, doesn't mean that the opposition actually scored more empty net goals this year compared to others. Without facts your point is useless. 2) Having Pleks on the point was actually the brainchild of Martin. It wasn't a bad idea in theory to try out but should have been squashed after it repeatedly didn't work . Coaching mistake or not, it's still the responsibility of the player not to allow a goal against on the powerplay. Again, we don't have facts to back up your statement of these types of goals against that have hurt his +/-. 3) Pleks hasn't gelled with any line combo all year. Is it everyone else or is it Pleks? He couldn't make it work with AK, Gionta, Cammy and they are not the average scrub like you listed to try to manipulate your point. There are all kinds of players that make others around them better. A line either produces, or it doesn't and gets broken up. The fact is that Pleks hasn't had significant chemistry with anyone all year. 4) That is only true when the other team's players are better than the people trying to stop them. If Pleks is going up against the best night in and night out, he isn't doing a very good job at stopping them. Why? Because he isn't as good as the other team's best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 1) You are assuming that he is always on the ice during the last minute of play. And just because we have a worse record this year and a lot of close games, doesn't mean that the opposition actually scored more empty net goals this year compared to others. Without facts your point is useless. 2) Having Pleks on the point was actually the brainchild of Martin. It wasn't a bad idea in theory to try out but should have been squashed after it repeatedly didn't work . Coaching mistake or not, it's still the responsibility of the player not to allow a goal against on the powerplay. Again, we don't have facts to back up your statement of these types of goals against that have hurt his +/-. 3) Pleks hasn't gelled with any line combo all year. Is it everyone else or is it Pleks? He couldn't make it work with AK, Gionta, Cammy and they are not the average scrub like you listed to try to manipulate your point. There are all kinds of players that make others around them better. A line either produces, or it doesn't and gets broken up. The fact is that Pleks hasn't had significant chemistry with anyone all year. 4) That is only true when the other team's players are better than the people trying to stop them. If Pleks is going up against the best night in and night out, he isn't doing a very good job at stopping them. Why? Because he isn't as good as the other team's best. I couldn't find individual player stats but 1) Montreal is 3rd in the entire NHL with 10 ENG against. Last season over 82 games we only gave up 8. 2) 8 vs 6 over last season prorate those over a full 82 games and its about 8 more goals against total on the team. 3) The winger who has spent the most time with Pleks this season is Gionta and he's spent 33 games on IR Lines have been broken up very quickly except for the 2.5 men line. 4) Pleks has had a rough year, he's been more than good enough in this role for the last 3-4 years. He's also still playing the most fwd minutes on the leagues best PP. Pleks defensive ability isn't really something that should be questionned IMO. If the offence was there the +/- wouldnt suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalhabs Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Is it confirmed that PG will get the boot after this season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Is it confirmed that PG will get the boot after this season? No, what team confirms, "we will be firing our GM, but not today, 7 weeks from now?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 No, what team confirms, "we will be firing our GM, but not today, 7 weeks from now?" The Habs never confirm anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalhabs Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 No, what team confirms, "we will be firing our GM, but not today, 7 weeks from now?" People seem so sure about him getting fired so I just wanted to ask. Wouldnt suprise me at all if he is still around next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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