Trade Subban traded to Nashville

[dlbalr]

And who friggin cares how much Weber OWES during the last 5 years. His CAP hit is still the same. You do realize that we operate in a cap system don't you???

I think the point is that a lot of people don't expect Weber to play those last few years. If he retires, the cap hit no longer applies (and the Habs won't be subject to recapture). From that standpoint, the 6 years for 10 years isn't quite so ominous, it's more likely 6 years for 6 or 7 years of Weber before he retires when the salary drops much lower.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

$9m for 6 goals...Geez, is kinda worse than Gomez as Gomez didn't lead NHL in PP time.

Weber is due $12m in total for the last 5 years

Speculations is what we all specialize in here. Even you must agree though, seems more likely I am correct.

The argument about the 6 goals is so absurd it scarcely warrants discussion. How about if I say, $9 mil for 62 points pro-rated over 82 games - 4th in scoring for d-men - in an off-year. Does that sound better?

The contract is another matter. We're on the hook for an $8 mil cap hit for 10 years. Now, the hope is that Weber will retire, or that some team that needs to meet the cap floor will take him. The latter scenario really worked out great with Gomez, eh? It is equally - perhaps more - likely that he will pull a Messier and plays through his declining years. Of course, we can always buy him out. But these all seem like bizarre ways of trying to rationalize the crappy contract. We get a guy who is almost as expensive as Subban in terms of cap hit, for a much longer term. Not to mention that he is at the very best no better an overall d-man than Subban. If Bergevin had somehow given this deal to Subban, we'd never hear the end of it as an atrocity of cap management. But when he trades for an inferior overall player with that deal, some "Management is Always Right" and "Moar Bigger" folks praise it to the skies.

So let's see: minimal cap savings; much worse contract term; older player, with signs of impending decline, versus guy entering his prime; much less agile player; poorer playoff producer; good for more goals than Subban; better crease-clearer; fewer assists, worse playmaking (thus detracting from the goal advantage); crappy outlet pass; substantially worse at the possession and transition game; a player who will be highly dependent on Nathan Beaulieu for us to be effective in generating offence from the back end when he's on the ice. That is a masterstroke of brilliant GMing, all right. For Rejean Houle.

[BCHabnut]

So who's going into next season wanting to be right, and who's going into it cheering on Weber and hoping we succeed from this trade over the next 3 years? Regardless of who won the trade, I am close to being ready to embracing it. If Weber can crease clear as well as some say, this is a big deal in today's NHL. I would rank it equal to transition play in many ways. Many goals are scored with garbage tips and such in the crease. I like the idea of having a guy facing the top lines and clearing the crease. Protecting our true mvp. If he can help the teams best player since roy (price) I am ready to cheer him on.

[Commandant]

Of course most of us will cheer Weber on. We are Montreal Canadiens fans who hope that this works out at the end of the day.

Being skeptical if the trade was the right move for the franchise, doesn't mean we want to see the franchise fail.

There is also the element that Weber should be cheered. He has done nothing wrong in the situation. Even if you aren't happy with the deal, the scorn shouldn't be directed at him, but rather at Bergevin and Therrien.

[hab29RETIRED]

100% agree. Have been a Habs fan long before dumb and dumber were hired. Never had faith in MT and have pretty much have lost faith in MB.

Of course most of us will cheer Weber on. We are Montreal Canadiens fans who hope that this works out at the end of the day.

Being skeptical if the trade was the right move for the franchise, doesn't mean we want to see the franchise fail.

There is also the element that Weber should be cheered. He has done nothing wrong in the situation. Even if you aren't happy with the deal, the scorn shouldn't be directed at him, but rather at Bergevin and Therrien.

[BCHabnut]

Agree. All of my faith in both of these guys is gone. I would rather have Subban than Weber. And I'm terrified that I'm gonna watch him in Nashville and cry in my booze. But it's all over but the cryin and I want to be a Weber fan.

[illWill]

The argument about the 6 goals is so absurd it scarcely warrants discussion. How about if I say, $9 mil for 62 points pro-rated over 82 games - 4th in scoring for d-men - in an off-year. Does that sound better?

The contract is another matter. We're on the hook for an $8 mil cap hit for 10 years. Now, the hope is that Weber will retire, or that some team that needs to meet the cap floor will take him. The latter scenario really worked out great with Gomez, eh? It is equally - perhaps more - likely that he will pull a Messier and plays through his declining years. Of course, we can always buy him out. But these all seem like bizarre ways of trying to rationalize the crappy contract. We get a guy who is almost as expensive as Subban in terms of cap hit, for a much longer term. Not to mention that he is at the very best no better an overall d-man than Subban. If Bergevin had somehow given this deal to Subban, we'd never hear the end of it as an atrocity of cap management. But when he trades for an inferior overall player with that deal, some "Management is Always Right" and "Moar Bigger" folks praise it to the skies.

So let's see: minimal cap savings; much worse contract term; older player, with signs of impending decline, versus guy entering his prime; much less agile player; poorer playoff producer; good for more goals than Subban; better crease-clearer; fewer assists, worse playmaking (thus detracting from the goal advantage); crappy outlet pass; substantially worse at the possession and transition game; a player who will be highly dependent on Nathan Beaulieu for us to be effective in generating offence from the back end when he's on the ice. That is a masterstroke of brilliant GMing, all right. For Rejean Houle.

A month later and the Cucumber is still steaming about the trade I see The thing about this deal is that it's going to be talked about for a long long time. The comparisons will never go away. Our eyes will be peeled to the Nashville box scores and highlights all the time. It's sort of a Romeo and Juliet tragedy, except it's PK and the fans in love and management doesn't want them together. We'll never know what could have been...

That being said, there are plenty of ways to look at their respective contracts and evaluate. Weber's contract is 12% cheaper and that extra space adds value to the rest of the team. It could be the difference between acquiring an impact player or not. Is PK 12% better than Weber? It's definitely debatable. Weber's remaining money owed is much lower than the cap hit and that adds value to a contract in terms of having an asset available in a trade. So theoretically he could be traded for a better player in the future than his cap hit and ability suggests. Subban now has his no trade clause revoked because the Preds don't have to honor it, so that's a plus for the Preds that the Habs wouldn't have had. The way I compare the two contracts is that I judge them for the remaining term left on Subban's. Because if you want to talk about the last 4 years of Weber, you need to tack on what the next contract for Subban would be. Because he could still be doing his thing in 6 years, putting up points, saving sick kids, and being a big personality. What'll that be worth then? Who knows what the next CBA will be like when it comes time? I guess my point is that looking past the next 6 years has too many variables to be a concern at this point.

I also want to add that we don't know if Subban is just entering his prime, thus going to be better. Just like we don't know that Weber is on the decline from his peak. To say Subban had an off year but that was an anomaly, and say that Weber had a good year but is declining is hypocritical. We don't know if Subban already reached his peak and is declining himself. Maybe he'll become more involved in off ice activities now and his game will suffer. Maybe Weber is a physical beast and is just warming up. It just seems so easy to visualize a player like Shea Weber lifting up the cup doesn't it? We won't know till it all happens

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The danger is that fans will transfer their anger at those two bozos onto Weber. It's important that Weber not struggle early with the adjustment, especially in his own end - otherwise there is indeed a danger of a cascading 'scapegoat' phenomenon. My guess, though, is that Weber's excellence will overcome the danger.

As for me, I'm not 'hoping' he'll fail. I don't believe he will fail. I'd expect him to produce about 15 goals, 50 points, as usual. (I don't think this is as guaranteed as it would be in Nashville, because he won't have the benefit of an elite partner - unless Beaulieu takes a big step forward; but it is likely). He will certainly bring a dimension of physical intimidation in the D-zone that the Habs haven't had in a long time.

The Habs are unlikely to 'fail' either. As I've said before, a top-10 finish is probable. This trade is merely a mediocre one in the short-term. It will get worse with every passing year.

Far from seeing Weber fail, what I want to see is Subban succeed. Nothing would rub it in the faces of the two dumbasses mismanaging the organization than for him to dominate for years to come, as he is quite capable of doing - and as he deserves to do, given the ridiculous crap he's had to eat from dummies like that ever since coming into the league.

EDIT: Machine, I'm still PO'd about the trade, because to trade your best position player for reasons that have nothing to do with hockey, without getting a spectacular return, is unforgivable - barring a Cup.

[BCHabnut]

That's where we differ. I want Subban's play to drop off and see him as a Yandle type in a couple years. Like a broken heart from an ex girlfriend, I don't want to look over at the love I once had, and feel remorse. I want her her to turn into a frumpy bitch who complains about everything so I can thank my lucky stars we parted ways. Hahaha. It's the only way I get over this breakup in a positive way.

[hab29RETIRED]

Has Weber ever won anything other than being part of an elite all-star team where he had a partner like Doughty??? Subban has been in the league for a shorter duration and has been to the final 4 twice. Scored key playoff winning goals. How many critical goals has Weber scored in the playoffs?? When has Weber taken over a playoff game or willed his team through a playoff series??? I don't care how many PP goals Weber scored last year. Souray scored more PP goals and 10 more goals than Weber did last year and we still missed the playoffs during Souray's big year. Do i think we miss the playoffs, not unless Price is hurt. Do i HOPE we win a cup - definitely. Do i think we have a legitimate chance - nope. Not with MT as coach.

This isn't about Subban being a better dman than weber 3 years from now. Subban is a MUCH better Dman now. Weber played with Jossi who is a better dman than him. Subban played with Markov in his twilight and dmen that are 2nd or 3rd pairing men. Yet despite playing 14 LESS games than Weber, Subban finished with the same number of points.

The habs would be a better team TODAY with Subban. In 3 years the gap is just going to widen. Read the interview with MaxPac from either yesterday. Sure doesn't sound like Subban was a cancer in the dressing room or that maxpac had any issues with him. This is about an idiot coach who hated Subban before he was coach. Came in wanting to break him and couldn't do so. It's about a GM who is not holding his coaching staff accountable. Lefebvre should have been fired TWO years ago, yet still has a job. MT should have been fired last December, but still has his job. If MB made a trade for a goalie like Reimer last year, despite the injuries to Gallagher or Petry, the habs make the playoffs. Management folded last year and the players followed their lead.

Like i said earlier, MB is the first example of the captain of the ship hell bent on sinking the ship. How many failed signings did he have last year ALONE?? How many horrible moves did he make last year ALONE?? the spin was Subban was the reason for creating a bad team environment. Management failed and the idiot owner backed management. This is the same owner who cut off Cunnewyorths' nuts two days after cunneyworth was given the job. It's all about image with this management team - not winning.

A month later and the Cucumber is still steaming about the trade I see The thing about this deal is that it's going to be talked about for a long long time. The comparisons will never go away. Our eyes will be peeled to the Nashville box scores and highlights all the time. It's sort of a Romeo and Juliet tragedy, except it's PK and the fans in love and management doesn't want them together. We'll never know what could have been...

That being said, there are plenty of ways to look at their respective contracts and evaluate. Weber's contract is 12% cheaper and that extra space adds value to the rest of the team. It could be the difference between acquiring an impact player or not. Is PK 12% better than Weber? It's definitely debatable. Weber's remaining money owed is much lower than the cap hit and that adds value to a contract in terms of having an asset available in a trade. So theoretically he could be traded for a better player in the future than his cap hit and ability suggests. Subban now has his no trade clause revoked because the Preds don't have to honor it, so that's a plus for the Preds that the Habs wouldn't have had. The way I compare the two contracts is that I judge them for the remaining term left on Subban's. Because if you want to talk about the last 4 years of Weber, you need to tack on what the next contract for Subban would be. Because he could still be doing his thing in 6 years, putting up points, saving sick kids, and being a big personality. What'll that be worth then? Who knows what the next CBA will be like when it comes time? I guess my point is that looking past the next 6 years has too many variables to be a concern at this point.

I also want to add that we don't know if Subban is just entering his prime, thus going to be better. Just like we don't know that Weber is on the decline from his peak. To say Subban had an off year but that was an anomaly, and say that Weber had a good year but is declining is hypocritical. We don't know if Subban already reached his peak and is declining himself. Maybe he'll become more involved in off ice activities now and his game will suffer. Maybe Weber is a physical beast and is just warming up. It just seems so easy to visualize a player like Shea Weber lifting up the cup doesn't it? We won't know till it all happens

[xXx..CK..xXx]

Has Weber ever won anything other than being part of an elite all-star team where he had a partner like Doughty??? Subban has been in the league for a shorter duration and has been to the final 4 twice. Scored key playoff winning goals. How many critical goals has Weber scored in the playoffs?? When has Weber taken over a playoff game or willed his team through a playoff series??? I don't care how many PP goals Weber scored last year. Souray scored more PP goals and 10 more goals than Weber did last year and we still missed the playoffs during Souray's big year. Do i think we miss the playoffs, not unless Price is hurt. Do i HOPE we win a cup - definitely. Do i think we have a legitimate chance - nope. Not with MT as coach.

This isn't about Subban being a better dman than weber 3 years from now. Subban is a MUCH better Dman now. Weber played with Jossi who is a better dman than him. Subban played with Markov in his twilight and dmen that are 2nd or 3rd pairing men. Yet despite playing 14 LESS games than Weber, Subban finished with the same number of points.

The habs would be a better team TODAY with Subban. In 3 years the gap is just going to widen. Read the interview with MaxPac from either yesterday. Sure doesn't sound like Subban was a cancer in the dressing room or that maxpac had any issues with him. This is about an idiot coach who hated Subban before he was coach. Came in wanting to break him and couldn't do so. It's about a GM who is not holding his coaching staff accountable. Lefebvre should have been fired TWO years ago, yet still has a job. MT should have been fired last December, but still has his job. If MB made a trade for a goalie like Reimer last year, despite the injuries to Gallagher or Petry, the habs make the playoffs. Management folded last year and the players followed their lead.

Like i said earlier, MB is the first example of the captain of the ship hell bent on sinking the ship. How many failed signings did he have last year ALONE?? How many horrible moves did he make last year ALONE?? the spin was Subban was the reason for creating a bad team environment. Management failed and the idiot owner backed management. This is the same owner who cut off Cunnewyorths' nuts two days after cunneyworth was given the job. It's all about image with this management team - not winning.

Nice and passionate post. Except we've finished 1st in our division 2 out of the 4 years Bergevin has been here and we've made the conference final 1 out of the past 4 years. Last year could be the beginning of something bad if you want to look at it that way but it could be just as much of an outlier as Subban's off season could be.

I wouldn't back every single move and their handling of last season was terrible in my mind but I do think management cares about winning. We have one of the better teams in the league.

[Habsfan84]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/max-pacioretty-p-k-subban-trade-shea-weber-montreal-canadiens-nashville-predators-captain/

Interview with Patches and he discusses the Subban trade a bit. To me this puts to end any rumours of the two players hating each other. You don't call Subban 5 minutes after the trade if you don't like the guy.

[DON]

Of course most of us will cheer Weber on. We are Montreal Canadiens fans who hope that this works out at the end of the day.

Being skeptical if the trade was the right move for the franchise, doesn't mean we want to see the franchise fail.

There is also the element that Weber should be cheered. He has done nothing wrong in the situation. Even if you aren't happy with the deal, the scorn shouldn't be directed at him, but rather at Bergevin and Therrien.

Therrien? Why would that be, Subban was 5th in TOI and played almost every second of Habs PP.

[hab29RETIRED]

Their 2 good years had nothing to do with dumb and dumber and everything to do with inheriting the best goalie in the world.

Nice and passionate post. Except we've finished 1st in our division 2 out of the 4 years Bergevin has been here and we've made the conference final 1 out of the past 4 years. Last year could be the beginning of something bad if you want to look at it that way but it could be just as much of an outlier as Subban's off season could be.

I wouldn't back every single move and their handling of last season was terrible in my mind but I do think management cares about winning. We have one of the better teams in the league.

Therrien? Why would that be?

because with average NHL goaltending MT is a below average NHL coach who wouldn't even have a job if he didn't speak French. He is probably the only coach in NHL history who took two bench minors and was the main reason his team lost a playoff series.

[dlbalr]

Guys, if you don't like a poster, just put them on the ignore list instead of attacking them here; those posts have been removed. This is kind of an important thread and it's extremely close to getting locked up since the stupid potshots are starting again.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/max-pacioretty-p-k-subban-trade-shea-weber-montreal-canadiens-nashville-predators-captain/

Interview with Patches and he discusses the Subban trade a bit. To me this puts to end any rumours of the two players hating each other. You don't call Subban 5 minutes after the trade if you don't like the guy.

I theorized he had problems with Subban in the locker room but it wasn't something that winning couldn't fix.

[Guest Stogey24]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/max-pacioretty-p-k-subban-trade-shea-weber-montreal-canadiens-nashville-predators-captain/

Interview with Patches and he discusses the Subban trade a bit. To me this puts to end any rumours of the two players hating each other. You don't call Subban 5 minutes after the trade if you don't like the guy.

Well I heard much differently. Take that as you will, but Pacioretty was NOT a fan of Subban

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The 'dressing room' argument is nonsense. Even if there WAS a problem, that still doesn't justify trading a better player for a worse one. But seeing as we had the best dressing room in hockey in the years leading up to last, I deeply doubt that any such problem was so catastrophic as to force the necessity of a trade in the first place (independent of MT's personal grudge against Subban); Price's return would have meant winning, and winning would have assuaged whatever problems may or may not have existed. It's all BS. Period.

(And anyhow, even if Patches or someone else found Subban grating - which I can certainly understand - that is not a justification for a trade. You don't have to be in love with your co-workers to be a professional and recognize that they make your organization better. Look at Mick Jagger and Keith Richards).

Habs29 is spot on above. This trade was about MT's ego, and probably MB's too. They hurt the team to gratify themselves. F**k them.

[DON]

give me a friggin break.

And who friggin cares how much Weber OWES during the last 5 years.

Why would I do that? I don't agree with any of your persistent negative, pessimistic and cynical viewpoints.

and

Someone whose Caps Lock seems to be randomly sticking sure seems to care.

[DON]

The 'dressing room' argument is nonsense. Even if there WAS a problem, that still doesn't justify trading a better player for a worse one. But seeing as we had the best dressing room in hockey in the years leading up to last, I deeply doubt that any such problem was so catastrophic as to force the necessity of a trade in the first place (independent of MT's personal grudge against Subban); Price's return would have meant winning, and winning would have assuaged whatever problems may or may not have existed. It's all BS. Period.

(And anyhow, even if Patches or someone else found Subban grating - which I can certainly understand - that is not a justification for a trade. You don't have to be in love with your co-workers to be a professional and recognize that they make your organization better. Look at Mick Jagger and Keith Richards).

Habs29 is spot on above. This trade was about MT's ego, and probably MB's too. They hurt the team to gratify themselves. F**k them.

Mick Jagger & his heroin addict sidekick, hmm don't see comparable and quite a nebulous reference for sure.

"This trade was about Therrien's ego..." is based on what exactly?

[xXx..CK..xXx]

Their 2 good years had nothing to do with dumb and dumber and everything to do with inheriting the best goalie in the world..

A little too obvious of a response. I could have written it myself for you before you replied. You do realize how simple an argument it is, right? Carey Price won MVP of the league two years ago. That means that there wasn't a single player more valuable than him. He also happens to be the last line of defense and a team only has one starting goalie so his importance is magnified to an even greater extent.

MB could have traded David Desharnais for Alex Ovechkin and Price would still be the reason for any of our success. That's not a shot at the coach and in this case it's not even a shot at management because he would have made a solid move there. Heck, we acquired Radulov for nothing who has been an elite Russian player, top 3-4 in his prime with Kovalchuk, Ovechkin and Malkin in their prime and still, Price will be the main reason for our success should we have any. That's reality regardless of who's behind the bench. Saying that does nothing to demonstrate how bad Therrien and Bergevin are and the statement is nothing more than a possibly valid strong opinion. The ego thing is all theory, just as much of one as Subban was a cancer to some of his teammates. It simply depends what side of the fence you're on and how you're trying to support your argument. Neither side is an actual fact, just an educated guess by people trying to think outside of the box.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The point is that the one big move Bergevin made in four years amounted to weakening the team for no discernible reason having anything to do with hockey. If the Habs win the Cup, it will be despite Bergevin, not because of him.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Let's all be honest. If there was an unquestionable rift in the locker room between Pacioretty and Subban, most would rather see Patches traded.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

The point is that the one big move Bergevin made in four years amounted to weakening the team for no discernible reason having anything to do with hockey. If the Habs win the Cup, it will be despite Bergevin, not because of him.

If you really wanted me to, I could wrap my head around Bergevin making our team weaker as a result of the trade. It's not something I agree with to such an obvious, written in stone extent but I do understand the perspective. Where we differ is that if we win the cup, it will be in spite of him. That's like saying you should be GM yourself because you are right regardless of the outcome and he is wrong.

I hated the Subban trade when I heard about it but the GM, in my opinion, has made the team better this off season regardless of Price coming back. I'm not trying to grasp for straws but if we don't trade Subban, do we get Radulov? If we don't trade Subban, do we draft Sergechev for the future?

Perhaps the answer is yes to both of those things but the point is that there are too many variables to argue that the team would be better with Subban in both the short term as well as the long term. Maybe his cap space hinders the team from evening our four lines out or maybe we acquire other players who don't work out because we already have Subban. Maybe the team itself was too reliant on Subban as a player and we will be more cohesive as a team.

I personally felt as though the first big move MB made was acquiring Vanek for peanuts. It was the most excited any of our GMs has made me in the millennium with a close second to Gainey and Kovalev. Ironically, I felt the exact opposite when I heard about this trade.

There are hockey reasons for the trade as well, I can assure you of that. I could really think about it and come up with a great list of things but if you don't think Weber helping our power play score goals is not a hockey reason that was a direct problem for our team last season, then sure it's not a hockey reason. If you don't think he will be a stronger mentor to some of the younger kids like Beaulieu on and off the ice, then still, there are no hockey reasons. If you don't think the relationship and comfort level Price and Weber have shown on the ice together while Weber clears the crease and they win championships together then I agree, we are still drawing blanks.

[DON]

A little too obvious of a response. I could have written it myself for you before you replied. You do realize how simple an argument it is, right? Carey Price won MVP of the league two years ago. That means that there wasn't a single player more valuable than him. He also happens to be the last line of defense and a team only has one starting goalie so his importance is magnified to an even greater extent.

MB could have traded David Desharnais for Alex Ovechkin and Price would still be the reason for any of our success. That's not a shot at the coach and in this case it's not even a shot at management because he would have made a solid move there. Heck, we acquired Radulov for nothing who has been an elite Russian player, top 3-4 in his prime with Kovalchuk, Ovechkin and Malkin in their prime and still, Price will be the main reason for our success should we have any. That's reality regardless of who's behind the bench. Saying that does nothing to demonstrate how bad Therrien and Bergevin are and the statement is nothing more than a possibly valid strong opinion. The ego thing is all theory, just as much of one as Subban was a cancer to some of his teammates. It simply depends what side of the fence you're on and how you're trying to support your argument. Neither side is an actual fact, just an educated guess by people trying to think outside of the box.

Good one.

How much is leadership worth? Safe to say that switching Subban and Weber is likely to help the leadership group of Price-Plekanec-Pacioretty-Markov-Gallagher (Shaw also should help).