2021 NHL General Discussion

[Prime Minister Koivu]

3 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

This is a topic that’s all over the place for me because while I can see the argument against Tortorella’s actions, we’re basically saying that modern age athletes have to be pampered. 
 

I remember as an 8 year old, I would get upset at the thought of one of the better players on the team getting a double shift over me, and at that age, I think playing time should be split fairly evenly.

 

In the NHL, I find that there is nothing wrong with having to earn your minutes. It’s perhaps arguable whether or not the method of benching a player actually works with everyone. As a coach, it is very important to know the personality of your players, and how to push their buttons. As a result, it would be incorrect to assume that every single player Torts has done this with, will actually benefit in a positive manner. In this way, Tortorella certainly needs the ability to have some introspection about his actions. 
 

In the end, whether or not one agrees with his method, there have been a substantial amount of people who have claimed that Dubois’ famous “shift” was indeed putrid, and that Laine was indeed motionless as he left a player wide open to score a goal. 
 

I find it hard to believe that Torts is simply out there pushing buttons at random, which I understand no one is suggesting. But if I am a player that torts benched, then I am simply pointing the finger at myself rather than the coach.

 

It’s very fine line for me, because Dubois and Laine could cry themselves out of town all they want, and Tortorella could very well be the influence that pushed them over the top. However, on the other hand, these star players need to have a better attitude, if they would want to jump ship at the first sign of adversity.

 

I was always a hustler on the ice who worked hard every shift, and so I would have been fine on a Tortorella led team and tend to view it as up to the player not to give Tortorella a reason to treat me in such a manner. On the other hand, Tortorella would need to understand that Laine will never have McDavid’s speed, or Tomas Plekanec’s defensive prowess. He (Torts) perhaps has room to grow as well.

There is more than enough evidence that being publicly shamed instead of instructed pisses people off!

 

Stars leave and the team suffers. 
 

The fact that players don’t want to play there is all the evidence you need. 

[GHT120]

7 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

That plan can work for a shot at cups over next couple of seasons for sure with some good FA signings. 
I think that would turn them into a Chicago after that and they are already on their way. 

I agree ... but they know that they may never get the luck of winning lottery slots to draft Crosby, Malkin and Letang in back-to-back drafts ... so I expect they will milk it as long as possible.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

27 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

There is more than enough evidence that being publicly shamed instead of instructed pisses people off!

 

Stars leave and the team suffers. 
 

The fact that players don’t want to play there is all the evidence you need. 

I think it’s completely overblown that “stars don’t want to play there (because of Torts).”

 

Laine needs to man up, and I’m sure he will. 
 

Columbus has recently been in all-in mode, and have in turn acquired a few rentals who had expiring deals. Once they leave, it’s easy to say it was because of Torts. When Radulov (could list more examples) left the Habs, I can assure you it wasn’t because of Torts.

 

Sometimes players want to test the market.

 

I’ll give you Dubois as a plausible example, even though he denied it, but so what? Torts isn’t the only coach who has rubbed off a player the wrong way. He’s just a little more extreme, and discussed.

[Fanpuck33]

2 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

This is a topic that’s all over the place for me because while I can see the argument against Tortorella’s actions, we’re basically saying that modern age athletes have to be pampered. 
 

I remember as an 8 year old, I would get upset at the thought of one of the better players on the team getting a double shift over me, and at that age, I think playing time should be split fairly evenly.

 

In the NHL, I find that there is nothing wrong with having to earn your minutes. It’s perhaps arguable whether or not the method of benching a player actually works with everyone. As a coach, it is very important to know the personality of your players, and how to push their buttons. As a result, it would be incorrect to assume that every single player Torts has done this with, will actually benefit in a positive manner. In this way, Tortorella certainly needs the ability to have some introspection about his actions. 
 

In the end, whether or not one agrees with his method, there have been a substantial amount of people who have claimed that Dubois’ famous “shift” was indeed putrid, and that Laine was indeed motionless as he left a player wide open to score a goal. 
 

I find it hard to believe that Torts is simply out there pushing buttons at random, which I understand no one is suggesting. But if I am a player that Torts benched, then I am simply pointing the finger at myself rather than the coach.

 

It’s a very fine line for me, because Dubois and Laine could cry themselves out of town all they want, and Tortorella could very well be the influence that pushed them over the top. However, on the other hand, these star players need to have a better attitude, if they would want to jump ship at the first sign of adversity.

 

I was always a hustler on the ice who worked hard every shift, and so I would have been fine on a Tortorella led team and tend to view it as up to the player not to give Tortorella a reason to treat them/me in such a manner. On the other hand, Tortorella would need to understand that Laine will never have McDavid’s speed, nor Tomas Plekanec’s defensive prowess and he should therefore never expect such. He (Torts) perhaps has room to grow as well.

 

It's not about pampering players, it's about Torts putting his own ego above everything else. He's always been hot headed, but it is getting worse. He publicly put the blame on the Dubois situation on Dubois. Even if that is true, it does no good to go to the media with private business. 

 

Last night he went on and on about how "benching a player is the last thing you want to do." Obviously that is a load of bull, because he's benched multiple players just this season already. Maybe you can argue that benching a 3rd pairing Dman doesn't hurt your chances of winning, but benching your best players absolutely does. Go ahead and skip them a shift of two, or even the rest of the period. Then have it out with them during intermission and give them a chance to do better.  There is a culture problem in Columbus and that begins with the coach, unless you've got some mega owner like Jerry Jones.

 

[GHT120]

2 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I think it’s completely overblown that “stars don’t want to play there (because of Torts)” ...

I agree ... I don't recall a player saying they couldn't/wouldn't play for Torts but have heard players say they liked playing for him or that he brought the best out of him/team (no citations).

[GHT120]

56 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said:

... Last night he went on and on about how "benching a player is the last thing you want to do." Obviously that is a load of bull, because he's benched multiple players just this season already ...

 

There is no contradiction ... he doesn't want to have to do it because it means the player is playing terribly ... but if a player "earns" it then Torts will bench him.

[GHT120]

Blue Jackets' John Tortorella benched Patrik Laine after winger allegedly 'mouthed off' to assistant coach

 

I presume an assistant commented about Laine's on-ice performance and he did not accept the comment(s) "graciously".

 

 

[hab29RETIRED]

4 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

This is a topic that’s all over the place for me because while I can see the argument against Tortorella’s actions, we’re basically saying that modern age athletes have to be pampered. 
 

I remember as an 8 year old, I would get upset at the thought of one of the better players on the team getting a double shift over me, and at that age, I think playing time should be split fairly evenly.

 

In the NHL, I find that there is nothing wrong with having to earn your minutes. It’s perhaps arguable whether or not the method of benching a player actually works with everyone. As a coach, it is very important to know the personality of your players, and how to push their buttons. As a result, it would be incorrect to assume that every single player Torts has done this with, will actually benefit in a positive manner. In this way, Tortorella certainly needs the ability to have some introspection about his actions. 
 

In the end, whether or not one agrees with his method, there have been a substantial amount of people who have claimed that Dubois’ famous “shift” was indeed putrid, and that Laine was indeed motionless as he left a player wide open to score a goal. 
 

I find it hard to believe that Torts is simply out there pushing buttons at random, which I understand no one is suggesting. But if I am a player that Torts benched, then I am simply pointing the finger at myself rather than the coach.

 

It’s a very fine line for me, because Dubois and Laine could cry themselves out of town all they want, and Tortorella could very well be the influence that pushed them over the top. However, on the other hand, these star players need to have a better attitude, if they would want to jump ship at the first sign of adversity.

 

I was always a hustler on the ice who worked hard every shift, and so I would have been fine on a Tortorella led team and tend to view it as up to the player not to give Tortorella a reason to treat them/me in such a manner. On the other hand, Tortorella would need to understand that Laine will never have McDavid’s speed, nor Tomas Plekanec’s defensive prowess and he should therefore never expect such. He (Torts) perhaps has room to grow as well.

Good coaches learn that they need the stars on their side - not continuously drive them out of town. Even Bowman had to change his ways and even he said that you can’t manage players the way you used to. And he doesn’t even close to ever being the dick that Torts is.  Hell, Bowman didn’t even have them practice the PP like they do now and allowed Lafleur to improvise. He let the skilled players shine and the only skilled player he had a really public conflict was was Yzerman and I don’t even remember that being on the Torts scale.

 

ita not just in Columbus. Vancouver would not have been in the situation they were in, if it were not for Torts.  Yea they had a lousy GM, but the coach did more damage to the extent that no one really knows wanted to be their except for the Uber loyal Sedins.

[hab29RETIRED]

6 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

There is more than enough evidence that being publicly shamed instead of instructed pisses people off!

 

Stars leave and the team suffers. 
 

The fact that players don’t want to play there is all the evidence you need. 

I think we saw it with Price at the end of Therrien’s reign.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

12 hours ago, GHT120 said:

I agree ... but they know that they may never get the luck of winning lottery slots to draft Crosby, Malkin and Letang in back-to-back drafts ... so I expect they will milk it as long as possible.

Say the leafs get bounced first round again. Is there a Cosby centred package that the pens could offer for Mathews? 
 

It would be Crosby plus plus for sure but I could see something working 

[DON]

2 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

 a Cosby centred package that the pens could offer for Mathews? 

A joke eh i assume, as not even Milbury would offer Matthews up for Crosby. (Matthews currently on 8 game goal scoring streak)

Not sure i would even trade Suzuki for Crosby at this stage of his career.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

1 hour ago, DON said:

A joke eh i assume, as not even Milbury would offer Matthews up for Crosby. (Matthews currently on 8 game goal scoring streak)

Not sure i would even trade Suzuki for Crosby at this stage of his career.

Anything to get the leafs to trade Mathews!

[Fanpuck33]

14 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 

There is no contradiction ... he doesn't want to have to do it because it means the player is playing terribly ... but if a player "earns" it then Torts will bench him.

 

Come on, as often as Torts benches players you think it is really the last thing he wants to do? It is one of the first tools in his tool belt! Seth Jones is about the only player I can't ever him benching for at least a period. He just doesn't handle players well. There's a reason Tampa let him walk the very first time they missed the playoffs after winning the Cup. There's a reason the Rangers ditched him after multiple consecutive playoff appearances. There's a reason Vancouver dumped him after just one mediocre season.

 

 

 

[GHT120]

After not playing in the NHL since 18 games with the habs in 20147-18, Mike McCarron has played the last two games of this season with Nashville and has averaged 2:12 on the PP ... things are BAADDD in Nashville ... as a side note, Nick Cousins has 2:48 PP-TOI in his 12 games played

 

 

[GHT120]

24 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said:

Come on, as often as Torts benches players you think it is really the last thing he wants to do? ...

 

IMO he really doesn't want to bench players, I don't think any coach does ... but Torts has less tolerance for players dogging it or playing stupidly ... OR ... as apparently was the case with Laine. mouthing off to coaches ... I would have benched PL too.

[DON]

1 hour ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

Anything to get the leafs to trade Mathews!

Sorry to say, he is one good hockey player...however Habs seem to limit his goal production vs them at least. 

[Commandant]

21 hours ago, GHT120 said:

I agree ... but they know that they may never get the luck of winning lottery slots to draft Crosby, Malkin and Letang in back-to-back drafts ... so I expect they will milk it as long as possible.

 

And even if you win the lottery, doesn't mean Sidney Crosby is available. 

[Fanpuck33]

3 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 

IMO he really doesn't want to bench players, I don't think any coach does ... but Torts has less tolerance for players dogging it or playing stupidly ... OR ... as apparently was the case with Laine. mouthing off to coaches ... I would have benched PL too.

 

Torts is loving all of this attention. 

[xXx..CK..xXx]

18 minutes ago, Fanpuck33 said:

 

Torts is loving all of this attention. 

At this point, you sound like an over emotional Columbus fan.

 

What you said about Tortorella... “there’s a reason”. There’s also a reason the Habs let Vigneault go. There’s a reason Vancouver let Vigneault go. There’s a reason the New York Rangers let Vigneault go.

Tortorella has an old school method, but it’s not as big of a deal as the fans and media are making it out to be. Tortorella has had more success than a lot of coaches. 
 

There’s a reason Tortorella won the Stanley Cup (I know, it’s ONLY because of the players he had). There’s a reason Tortorella had coached the USA National team, and there’s a reason Tortorella is still coaching Columbus.

 

I get that people love to hate him, and my mission is not to change anyone’s mind.

 

I just know the players certainly have a responsibility and need to be held accountable as well. 
 

As for the “driving players out of town”

debate, I don’t buy it. Sure, it’s possible that a few players have wanted out because of Tortorella, but the same can be said for almost any coach out there. Tortorella “incidents” are just more publicized.

 

Jeff Carter also didn’t want to

be part of the organization, and I’m sure that was Tortorella’s fault as well.

 

 

[Commandant]

21 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I think it’s completely overblown that “stars don’t want to play there (because of Torts).”

 

Laine needs to man up, and I’m sure he will. 
 

Columbus has recently been in all-in mode, and have in turn acquired a few rentals who had expiring deals. Once they leave, it’s easy to say it was because of Torts. When Radulov (could list more examples) left the Habs, I can assure you it wasn’t because of Torts.

 

Sometimes players want to test the market.

 

I’ll give you Dubois as a plausible example, even though he denied it, but so what? Torts isn’t the only coach who has rubbed off a player the wrong way. He’s just a little more extreme, and discussed.

 

Ryan Johansen

Panarin

Bobrovsky

Duchene

Dubois

All of them running from Torts just during his Columbus time, when he's supposedly been "more mellow"

 

There is also tons of evidence in Vancouver and New York and Tampa. 

[Commandant]

The guy is basically this generation's Mike Keenan.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

21 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

Ryan Johansen

Panarin

Bobrovsky

Duchene

Dubois

All of them running from Torts just during his Columbus time, when he's supposedly been "more mellow"

 

There is also tons of evidence in Vancouver and New York and Tampa. 

Panarin was going to test free agency regardless. Duchene was a rental and Bobrovsky was elite as a jacket so issues with Tortorella or not, I’m not sure what the issue is there. 
 

Duchene, Dubois, Johansen. Does no one else see how all three of these players are notoriously overrated and often lack effort? I actually wanted the Habs to trade Galchenyuk for Duchene years ago, but he also had his issues in Ottawa, re: The “taxi squad”. He’s not exactly a model player, and many people here would agree.
 

All three of Dubois, Duchene, and Johansen are players who NEED a good kick in the a$$. If they are that sensitive then so be it. 
 

I don’t know, I can see the point that these players actually had issues with Tortorella, but I state for the third time that I hold the players accountable as well. 
 

We could find plenty of examples with every coach where players were disgruntled at one point or another. All of this has also overlooked anything good Tortorella has achieved like getting more out of certain average players, as well as things like being part of the reason a team led by him demolished the Habs 10-0, as well as sweeping the Lightning as heavy underdogs in the playoffs. Tortorella gets more out of his players than some other coaches are capable of as well. 

 

 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

12 minutes ago, Commandant said:

The guy is basically this generation's Mike Keenan.

 

Ouch!  I have actually read some players say that Torts was one of the few coaches who actually took an interest in them as a person.  I don't think you will ever see too many former players say nice things about Keenan.  Torts  does hold players accountable, some players don't like that. 

[Commandant]

20 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Panarin was going to test free agency regardless. Duchene was a rental and Bobrovsky was elite as a jacket so issues with Tortorella or not, I’m not sure what the issue is there. 
 

Duchene, Dubois, Johansen. Does no one else see how all three of these players are notoriously overrated and often lack effort? I actually wanted the Habs to trade Galchenyuk for Duchene years ago, but he also had his issues in Ottawa, re: The “taxi squad”. He’s not exactly a model player, and many people here would agree.
 

All three of Dubois, Duchene, and Johansen are players who NEED a good kick in the a$$. If they are that sensitive then so be it. 
 

I don’t know, I can see the point that these players actually had issues with Tortorella, but I state for the third time that I hold the players accountable as well. 
 

We could find plenty of examples with every coach where players were disgruntled at one point or another. All of this has also overlooked anything good Tortorella has achieved like getting more out of certain average players, as well as things like being part of the reason a team led by him demolished the Habs 10-0, as well as sweeping the Lightning as heavy underdogs in the playoffs. Tortorella gets more out of his players than some other coaches are capable of as well. 

 

 

 

All coaches have a shelf life, and the disciplinarian types can be short.  Its Torts 5th season in Columbus, he's reaching the end with that style.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

My theory with Torts is that he does well with impressionable young teams. His sojourn with an accomplished veteran team in Van, by contrast, was a comical debacle.

 

And yeah, beyond that, five years tends to be any coach's "best before" date...much like the way any Canadian PM approaching Year 10 is as good as doomed.