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Nov. 13: Habs @ Red Wings - the Once We Were Kings edition


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If Allen is going to miss the next game, for the love of God Bergevin, call up Primeau. Of course Dom will need to start him, and I am not confident he will. 

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Plus: Another good effort

Minus: Another (OT) loss

Plus: Two points by Wideman, who is looking like a UFA steal

Minus: Allen injured ... for how long?

 

If the Allen injury is anything substantial, we may well be competing with Arizona for the top pick. Neither Primeau or Montembeault is ready to be a starter.

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1 hour ago, tomh009 said:

That's not what he said. What he did say is that the positives need to be bigger than the negatives: he has to make a positive contribution to the team.

 

Thats is what he said though, but he said it in reference to what others are thinking regarding Penalzetta.  He is certainly making contributions and it is typically in ways that are not in direct personal points.  His energy is contagious - and they are desperate for that right now.  

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35 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

Plus: Another good effort

Minus: Another (OT) loss

Plus: Two points by Wideman, who is looking like a UFA steal

Minus: Allen injured ... for how long?

 

If the Allen injury is anything substantial, we may well be competing with Arizona for the top pick. Neither Primeau or Montembeault is ready to be a starter.

 

Agree on your points although there is no way they will be as bad as Arizona.  The effort was there tonight. 

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53 minutes ago, habscout said:

If Allen is going to miss the next game, for the love of God Bergevin, call up Primeau. Of course Dom will need to start him, and I am not confident he will. 

 

They called Primeau up right after the game.

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3 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

Thats the identical mistake in logic regarding Gustafsson.  i.e. they must get points for every error they make, vs every point they actually cause.  ex:  Pezzetta avgs 1 pen/gm he obviously wont get 1 pt/gm.  Why would would there be an expectation that he has to?

 

Plus, thats only considering his personal points vs the teams.  He draws penalties which result in PPG's, blocks G view and his linemate score.  There are numerous ways to get points where a player is not awarded a point.  Also, after they kill the pen the momentum changes in thier favour which leads to scoring chances and goals.  I'm pretty sure the anti- Pezzites aren't considering any of those factors.  

 

Wansn't the Habs PK in 31st place?  They've killed enough of Pezzettas penalties that they're now 29th, and their PK will probably be 20th by 1st wk of Dec.   I dont find his penalties to be a Con - they play harder to kill them, which ironically is actually a good thing.   Plus thy need his Gally-esque like energy, and his size and fists help too.  

 

Im not even assuming 1 penalty per point 

 

Im saying pezzetta is gonna get like 20 PIMs or 10 minor penalties for every point he can get you.  Even a good PK isnt gonna kill more than 10% so thats a liability.

 

If he gets 5 penalties per point, then a just slighrly below average PK makes him a liability.

 

And thats without getting into the fact even without the penalties he isnt talented and is on the ice for more high danger chances against than chances for.

 

The guy is a shitty NHLer, Thats just fact.

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10 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

 

Thats is what he said though, but he said it in reference to what others are thinking regarding Penalzetta.  He is certainly making contributions and it is typically in ways that are not in direct personal points.  His energy is contagious - and they are desperate for that right now.  

 

No i never said that penalties have to be equal to points.  You said that. 

 

I said his points wont offset his penalties...  i never said the ratio was 1:1 for it to be considered an offset and not a liability.

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2 hours ago, tomh009 said:

Plus: Another good effort

Minus: Another (OT) loss

Plus: Two points by Wideman, who is looking like a UFA steal

Minus: Allen injured ... for how long?

 

If the Allen injury is anything substantial, we may well be competing with Arizona for the top pick. Neither Primeau or Montembeault is ready to be a starter.

Lehkonen had one of his bests games and Poehling looked good

 

Another positive is that Pezzetta brings a different topic of discussion to the forum that is not;

  - Perry’s poor play 

  - Toffoli impersonating Lehks

  - All points from bottom 6


Thank goodness for #55

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It’s far from a fact that someone is a shitty NHLer after only 6 games. Out of all people, some of the recent posters should know that.

 

Just because you’ve watched someone play in the AHL, does not mean that he will be the exact same type of player, or have the same level of impact in the NHL. 
 

Daniel Carr, Bud Holloway, Charles Hudon, Sven Adrighetto, Matt D’Agostino etc., etc, etc, were all/are all shitty NHLers, and they are decent AHL players. So call Pezzetta shitty, and he can join that “highly skilled” group.

 

I cannot argue against the reality that Pezzetta is more likely than not to eventually be sent down. We are talking about a 4th liner, after all. I can argue the fact however that I’ve liked what I have seen from him during his small NHL sample size, without having past biases cloud my judgement, as well as expectations.

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4 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

It’s far from a fact that someone is a shitty NHLer after only 6 games. Out of all people, some of the recent posters should know that.

 

Just because you’ve watched someone play in the AHL, does not mean that he will be the exact same type of player, or have the same level of impact in the NHL. 
 

Daniel Carr, Bud Holloway, Charles Hudon, Sven Adrighetto, Matt D’Agostino etc., etc, etc, were all/are all shitty NHLers, and they are decent AHL players. So call Pezzetta shitty, and he can join that “highly skilled” group.

 

I cannot argue against the reality that Pezzetta is more likely than not to eventually be sent down. We are talking about a 4th liner, after all. I can argue the fact however that I’ve liked what I have seen from him during his small NHL sample size, without having past biases cloud my judgement, as well as expectations.

 

There are players who are very good and highly skilled in the AHL who cant translate that to the NHL.  Tons of them in the history of hockey.

 

There are far fewer, like you can count them on one hand, forwards who have played a significant sample size in the AHL, lets say over 100 games (Pezzetta has 115) with limited scoring in that league (pezzetta at 0.22 ppg) who get to the NHL and become signignificant offensive contributors in any sustained way to an NHL team.

 

Yes its true that guys like hudon, carr, holloway and others were great AHLers who couldnt do it in the show, but thats not an argument for anyone being able to do the opposite.  The NHL is the harder league.  If you can score in the AHL you might be able to do it in the NHL.  If you cant score consistently in the AHL, there is almost zero chance you can do so consistently in the NHL.

 

So again, if Pezzetta is going to take a lot of penalties he's going to be an NHL liability.  His play when not taking those penalties will never produce enough points to offset them as last nights point is a great personal moment for him but one he is highly unlikely to repeat with any consistency.

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Generally speaking, most players don't play a significantly bigger role in the NHL than they do in the minors - it's either the same or a lesser one.  If a player has a tendency to take a bunch of penalties at all levels (if you don't like me referencing his AHL play, how about in the OHL where he took penalties at a similar rate), there's a more than reasonable chance that the trend will continue in the NHL...which it clearly has.  Commenting on his penalty history isn't bias, it's fact. 

 

And just because I've seen Pezzetta more than most have doesn't inherently make my opinion biased - it makes it informed, it's called a scouting report.  The book on him is that he's an energy player that takes a lot of penalties.  Isn't that exactly what he has been so far in Montreal?

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As for what Ive seen in his six games.  He has high energy, thats great.  He also has no discipline, taking 6 minor penalties (12 PIMs in those games). Hes averaging a penalty per game and thats been a problem for him at all levels of hockey.  He doesnt have the discipline to walk the line to being a pest without crossing it and he can be goaded into really dumb shit like other teams have done to him on some of those penalties.  If he cant clean that up, hes a liability and hes shown no ability to clean that up in either the AHL or OHL.

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I respect the recent arguments and thought of some of the same things... For instance, the reality that just because a skilled player cannot translate those skills into the NHL, this does not mean that a less skilled player will all of a sudden become an impact NHLer.

 

With that being said, I think this whole topic is based on perspective. The modern configuration moving forward seems to be to have 4 lines who possess skill whereas in the past, the 4th line has often had size and brought energy. Those who subscribe to the more modern model will obviously not even consider Pezzetta as a possibility. It won’t even be a discussion to them.

 

My perspective is that there have actually been some decent teams with grit in the recent past... say as an example Ryan Reaves on Vegas/Rangers. No, Pezzetta is no Reaves but the point remains the same considering we do not have a Reaves. Vegas was a good team with him.

 

I understand that the conversation began as a thought about Pezzetta’s points off setting the reality that he takes penalties but I believe he brings more to the table than points... though I won’t go into the topic of intangibles.

 

Finally, the only reason I bring up bias is because it seems from what I have seen from those who dislike Pezzetta, they completely overlook anything positive he does when ranting about his negatives.  I also have to bring up an example concerning one of the penalties he took the other day that was a complete phantom call. Yet apparently people were ready to rip his head off and blame him as though he should be aware he will get a “reputation call” merely 6 games into his NHL career.

 

I do feel as though it’s a bit of a bias but can understand if your head is saying “wait another 20 games and you will get sick of his penalties as well.” Perfectly understandable if that is the case. Until then, I’ve liked what I have seen thus far.

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Pezzetta absolutely is the type of player that fans tend to love, and that old-school hockey types always loved. They’ll talk about his grit, his character, his inspirational value, that he stands up to opponents, his physicality, etc.. You notice him out there. I like those things about him myself. And also, fans always like a lunch-pail player - they can identify with him. He’s an ideal Don Cherry type of player.

 

And the one pedantic thing I will say in his defence is that I don’t care if he takes penalties **provided an opponent goes off with him.** When that happens, he is doing his job, i.e., agitating. What really counts is not the sheer number of minor penalties he takes, but the number of power plays he ends up giving the other team. When that happens, he is hurting the Habs, pure and simple. I don’t know how many PKs he’s generated but I suspect it is disproportionately, crazily high on a per-game basis. 

 

And if so, then that’s the problem. A lot of old-school hockey thinking went overboard when advanced stats came along. Goons, for example, got obliterated the minute teams had irrefutable numbers showing that they were putting themselves at a colossal competitive disadvantage every time they iced a gorilla instead of a hockey player. Pezzetta is not a goon proper, but if the team keeps having to clean up his messes, he will be sent to the minors before he knows what’s hit him; or else the Habs are so bad that they’ll decide to carry him anyway, preferring a guy who makes an impact, even a negative one, to forgettable, anonymous, generic fourth liners. But if they do that, it is a symptom of their wretchedness, not a credit to Pezzetta.

 

EDIT: BTW, my one-game win streak is over…someone needs to take on today’s GDT thread before Boston crushes us.

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