GHT120 Posted November 4, 2022 Share Posted November 4, 2022 3 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said: ... and are already a .500 team ... Let's see where they end up at the end of the season ... I didn't say you can't win without a franchise player, just where they (for the most part) are drafted ... and I doubt you would not disagree that another top/elite draft pick (and the higher picks in all subsequent rounds) wouldn't hurt the rebuild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted November 4, 2022 Author Share Posted November 4, 2022 15 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said: [...] Look at the other teams that had a 1st over all and top 5 picks for years and won a Cup. ex: Caps & OV, they won, when he was in his 30's. The Blues won, took almost 10 years, had already lost Oshie and Shattenkirk. Bolts got Stammy and Headman, didnt win till they were both in their 30's. The Leafs and Oilers are on that exact same pace too - as are the Canucks, Devils and Sabres. All those other teams were bottom of the barrel for years and the Habs are in year 1 (or 2) of a rebuild and are already a .500 team and are on pace for a 40 year Cup reunion in 2026. This is a great answer, thanks for reminding us. Despite loving to see the Habs win, I hope hey finish bottom 3 in the league this season, that they play .500 until the trade deadline and then go on a tail spin after trading away UFAs I do not wish an injury to anyone, so I won't hope for that. Regular Flu or a viral stomach flu like they had a couple of years ago would do it for me, they had to sanitize the dressing room to stop it and quite a few players were sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted November 4, 2022 Share Posted November 4, 2022 6 minutes ago, GHT120 said: Let's see where they end up at the end of the season ... I didn't say you can't win without a franchise player, just where they (for the most part) are drafted ... and I doubt you would not disagree that another top/elite draft pick (and the higher picks in all subsequent rounds) wouldn't hurt the rebuild. The entire point of my stance is that elite players are a for the most part are a hindrance - with a few exceptions. I've seen numerous people comment wondering how the Bruins do it and the Bolts. They won their Cups because their elite players werent greedy and are team players. ex - Bos: their top players dont get 10 mil, their contracts dont start with a 9, 8, or even a 7. Bergeron, Pasternak, Marchand and Hall all got in the 6 mil/yr range. Bolts, Stammy gets close to 8.5 with Hedman slightly under that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Minister Koivu Posted November 4, 2022 Share Posted November 4, 2022 I would be good finishing last but I think we are too well coached and Suzuki, Caufield, Dach is just too damn good. Maybe if we trade Edmundson, Monahan, Anderson soon we might have a shot at Bedard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted November 4, 2022 Author Share Posted November 4, 2022 40 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said: I would be good finishing last but I think we are too well coached and Suzuki, Caufield, Dach is just too damn good. Maybe if we trade Edmundson, Monahan, Anderson soon we might have a shot at Bedard Monahan and Edmundson: MoneyHands for their top draft pick and Edy to a cup contending team that needs the extra boost on D to get over the hump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 6 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said: I fully realize that irony, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. Timmins definitely had a couple of good draft years, however; over all I was never a fan of how he drafted. My point was that the Habs currently have a bunch of prospects coming that should be decent NHL players, but only 1 was a top 5 pick. There's no truth to the belief that a team must draft in the top 5 to get really good players. How many cup winners didn’t have those top 5 picks? There is not a single of the last last 8 cup winners that didn’t have at least one top 5 pick (Blues had the least), and the Bruins are the only team not to have a long term franchise player from those picks. The rest hit it big with major franchise players. You have to have a solid management team, make the right picks, develop the players, and do a good job drafting in other rounds, and make good trades. There are also dysfunctional teams with lousy management that do a lousy job (I think we have been among those for a long time), even though we didn’t get the great picks, but looking at the past cup winners, it’s undeniable that multiple top 5 picks help. Lightening: -Stamkos -Hedman -Drouin (got them Sergechev) Avs: -Makar -McKinnnon -Landeskog -Bryam -Duschene - only top 5 pick not on cup winner, but brought important assets penguins -Crosby -Malkin -Fleury -Stall Hawks -Toews -Kane capitals: -Ovechkin -Backstrom Blues: -Pietrangelo Kings: -Doughty -Schenn (got them key pieces for cup wins) Bruins -Seguin -Kessel (got key assets for him) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 6 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said: I would be good finishing last but I think we are too well coached and Suzuki, Caufield, Dach is just too damn good. Maybe if we trade Edmundson, Monahan, Anderson soon we might have a shot at Bedard agree we aren’t bad enough to be the worst team. Frankly, I doubt if we would have got a #1 pick without DD as coach last year. I think we are still a lottery team though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 6 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said: The entire point of my stance is that elite players are a for the most part are a hindrance - with a few exceptions. I've seen numerous people comment wondering how the Bruins do it and the Bolts. They won their Cups because their elite players werent greedy and are team players. ex - Bos: their top players dont get 10 mil, their contracts dont start with a 9, 8, or even a 7. Bergeron, Pasternak, Marchand and Hall all got in the 6 mil/yr range. Bolts, Stammy gets close to 8.5 with Hedman slightly under that. I’ll thaw the hinderance of Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kane, Doughty, Stamkos, Hedman, any day. Hell, I’d even prefer the hinderance of bums like McDavid or Draisaitl who never won the cup, over what we’ve had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 Well, we have a #1 overall pick in our system and a #3 overall pick in Dach, after having squandered yet another #3 in Kotkaniemi. Since it seems doubtful that we are getting Bédard, we may as well forget about the Saviour fantasy IMHO. Rather we have to hope that, through systematically excellent drafting and development, shrewd managerial moves, and overall organizational excellence - as well as some luck - we can build a Cup winner. I’d note that, of Habs29 ‘s examples, the Blues, Bruins, and Kings serve as reasonable models proving this approach *can* work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 55 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: ... Since it seems doubtful that we are getting Bédard, we may as well forget about the Saviour fantasy IMHO. Rather we have to hope that, through systematically excellent drafting and development, shrewd managerial moves, and overall organizational excellence ... Depending on the source/definition, there are 3-5-8 elite players available at the top end of this draft ... their selection would be a little more dependent on draft position than on "excellent drafting" (which I would "define" more as Sebastian Aho at #35, Alex Debrincat at #39, Brayden Point at #79, Jake Guentzel at #77, etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 6 hours ago, GHT120 said: Depending on the source/definition, there are 3-5-8 elite players available at the top end of this draft ... their selection would be a little more dependent on draft position than on "excellent drafting (which I would "define" more as Sebastian Aho at #35, Alex Debrincat at #39, Brayden Point at #79, Jake Guentzel at #77, etc.). Well, the “Saviour mentality” has to do with this idea that you absolutely require a generational player to win. So we have to Tank for Bédard, on that logic. Elite players, though, are not the same thing as a generational talent. And yes, we should be a bottom-10 team and have a good chance at drafting such a player - assuming we don’t f**k it up like we have chronically done for 30 years. I’m with you on excellent drafting and development. You just do need to find impact players outside of the top-5 draft position. Bergeron and Marchand (and Chara, a lower pick signed to much derision as a UFA) meant **vastly** more to the Bruins’ contending years than top picks Seguin or Kessel ever did. Kuznetsov was what, a third-rounder? And Suzuki and Caufield were not high-end picks either. If we can do that every now and again, we’ll be a good team indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted November 5, 2022 Author Share Posted November 5, 2022 12 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said: How many cup winners didn’t have those top 5 picks? There is not a single of the last last 8 cup winners that didn’t have at least one top 5 pick (Blues had the least), and the Bruins are the only team not to have a long term franchise player from those picks. The rest hit it big with major franchise players. You have to have a solid management team, make the right picks, develop the players, and do a good job drafting in other rounds, and make good trades. There are also dysfunctional teams with lousy management that do a lousy job (I think we have been among those for a long time), even though we didn’t get the great picks, but looking at the past cup winners, it’s undeniable that multiple top 5 picks help. Lightening: -Stamkos -Hedman -Drouin (got them Sergechev) Avs: -Makar -McKinnnon -Landeskog -Bryam -Duschene - only top 5 pick not on cup winner, but brought important assets penguins -Crosby -Malkin -Fleury -Stall Hawks -Toews -Kane capitals: -Ovechkin -Backstrom Blues: -Pietrangelo Kings: -Doughty -Schenn (got them key pieces for cup wins) Bruins -Seguin -Kessel (got key assets for him) Great list! My take-away is that I want the Habs to build a strong core of elite players like TBL and PIT and to a lesser degree CHI in their hey-day (let's avoid the contracts and A-h*le culture) Out of this list, CHI'10 had a strong core built on the old model of one elite player per skater position and the first time the cup run didn't rest on an established elite goaltender (Niemi 22GP, 16W-6L .910 GAA). Hossa won his cup and the team was disbanded and saddled with bad contracts. But they won 2013 and 2015 Crawfod played really well 16W-7L .932GAA & 13W-6L .924GAA. The top-10 scorers in the playoffs were the veterans The LAK'14 had size and a one-two punch at center, Doughty won his Norris later (2016) but made the rest of the D (Green, Martinez,Mitchell and Muzin) look great. Quick was 16W-10L .911 GAA Of the more recent teams that were in the finals, TBL and PIT had solid to-draft cores COL, STL. WSH and SJS have been cup contenders for years but have not been able to repeat performance (we'll see with the Avs) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted November 7, 2022 Author Share Posted November 7, 2022 On 11/5/2022 at 12:13 AM, hab29RETIRED said: [...]There is not a single of the last last 8 cup winners that didn’t have at least one top 5 pick (Blues had the least), penguins -Crosby -Malkin -Fleury -Stall capitals: -Ovechkin -Backstrom Blues: -Pietrangelo Good article by Lebrun on The Athletic: Could this be the year aging Penguins , Blues and Capitals fall off? PIT 4W-6L-2OL 10pts STL 3W-6L-0OL 6pts WSH 5W-6L-2OL 12pts https://theathletic.com/3769975/2022/11/07/nhl-aging-penguins-blues-capitals/?source=emp_shared_article Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted November 7, 2022 Author Share Posted November 7, 2022 Interesting article on the need for two top centers for a teams to become a cup contender (Google translate): "But most of these clubs had at least one top-notch attacking defender, plenty of depth at every position, team play, leadership and an above-average will to win." https://www.lapresse.ca/sports/hockey/2022-11-07/rondelle-libre/poste-de-deuxieme-centre-qui-sera-l-elu-a-long-terme.php I agree that keeping Dach on RW and betting on Beck/ (I am adding Kidney/Roy instead of Mesar) to come up in 2-3 years would be a good way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 On 11/7/2022 at 1:03 PM, alfredoh2009 said: Interesting article on the need for two top centers for a teams to become a cup contender (Google translate): "But most of these clubs had at least one top-notch attacking defender, plenty of depth at every position, team play, leadership and an above-average will to win." https://www.lapresse.ca/sports/hockey/2022-11-07/rondelle-libre/poste-de-deuxieme-centre-qui-sera-l-elu-a-long-terme.php I agree that keeping Dach on RW and betting on Beck/ (I am adding Kidney/Roy instead of Mesar) to come up in 2-3 years would be a good way to go. Roy isn't a Centre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted November 8, 2022 Author Share Posted November 8, 2022 4 minutes ago, Commandant said: Roy isn't a Centre. I got it from these websites, they are probably wrong. I see now that he is playing RW https://thehockeywriters.com/joshua-roy-2021-nhl-draft-prospect-profile/ https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/483757/joshua-roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 2 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said: I got it from these websites, they are probably wrong. I see now that he is playing RW https://thehockeywriters.com/joshua-roy-2021-nhl-draft-prospect-profile/ https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/483757/joshua-roy He may have been a centre (most forwards who have a shot at the NHL play C when they are young) prior to the qmjhl. Hes been almost exclusively a winger in the Q and thats where we should expect him in Laval and hopefully Montreal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted November 8, 2022 Author Share Posted November 8, 2022 2 hours ago, Commandant said: He may have been a centre (most forwards who have a shot at the NHL play C when they are young) prior to the qmjhl. Hes been almost exclusively a winger in the Q and thats where we should expect him in Laval and hopefully Montreal thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted November 9, 2022 Author Share Posted November 9, 2022 well, from the "team tank" perspective, this is disappointing: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 24 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said: well, from the "team tank" perspective, this is disappointing: Especially with the lottery draw this afternoon Oh wait ... 69 games left ... Habs are 4 points out of a wild card spot and 5 points out of the bottom three ... too early for "tankists" to worry or for "playoff pursuitists" to get excited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 Seems are bunch of teams that are worse than the Habs and it will be a battle to finish in the bottom 10. Especially if Habs keep getting solid goaltending like they have been so far. Just a comment, Columbus has been and still seems one crappy franchise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 2 minutes ago, DON said: Seems are bunch of teams that are worse than the Habs and it will be a battle to finish in the bottom 10. Especially if Habs keep getting solid goaltending like they have been so far. Just a comment, Columbus has been and still seems one crappy franchise. Congratulations Johnny Gaudreau Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh009 Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 19 minutes ago, GHT120 said: Especially with the lottery draw this afternoon Oh wait ... 69 games left ... Habs are 4 points out of a wild card spot and 5 points out of the bottom three ... too early for "tankists" to worry or for "playoff pursuitists" to get excited. Actually only two points out. But at the current pace, it’ll be 13 by the end of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted November 11, 2022 Author Share Posted November 11, 2022 Seems like CBJ has consolidated its stranglehold on the Bedard sweepstakes “Zach Werenski suffered a separated shoulder and torn labrum Thursday and is expected to miss the rest of the regular season.” https://t.co/FWBNOGsjx1 — Frank Seravalli (@frank_seravalli) November 11, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 On 11/9/2022 at 5:54 AM, alfredoh2009 said: well, from the "team tank" perspective, this is disappointing: LOL Ottawa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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