2022/2023 End of season discussion and polls

[tomh009]

3 hours ago, Habsfan89 said:

How does a offer like 

Florida's 1st round pick +Dvorak +Kovacevic,  have Hoffman be a throw in 

For

PLD

Apart from the foolishness of giving up real assets for a player that's going to be a UFA (and may or may not want to sign with the Habs regardless), why would we throw away Kovacevic, one of our few credible RHDs? Maybe later, if Mailloux works out and/or we find another RHD, but we are not there yet.

[TurdBurglar]

For the poll questions: 

 

1) I think Dubois will be a Canadien from free agency next offseason, unless Winnipeg will give him away this offseason, which is unlikely to say the least.  I also believe, from all the reports, he will be cheaper than we believe, somewhere in the $7m AAV range which I can live with.

 

2) I think if there's a trade for Matheson for a true #1 RD Hughes would be silly to not take it.  There's a logjam at LD so bringing in a top end RD to make a strong top pair would be much better than keeping a logjam at LD or moving Edmundson for a low return.  Guhle showed this season that he has the ability to play against the leagues best, with a high ceiling.

 

3) Drouin threw up 29pts in 58 games.  Unless he's a cancer in the locker room, I would absolutely sign that production at league minimum.  The very definition of low risk high reward.  The worse case scenario is he gets sent to Laval and his cap space is buried or is claimed on waivers.  The best case is he rebounds and put up 50+ points, and turns into a productive roster player again or trade chip.

 

I would also like to see Monahan resigned to a short 1-2 year deal.  I liked what I saw from him when he was playing and I think he could bring real value in a deadline deal with a chance to rebound. 

 

I think something needs to be really fixed with the medical system.  From the reports here too many players are playing with injuries that they shouldn't.  At the very least for next season, the medical staff should tighten up on what injuries they allow the players to play with.  The last game of the season there were 14 roster players injured.  That's 75% of a standard roster.  It's unacceptable.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Great news re: Monty. The experience should continue to further his development as a late-bloomer.

 

Monahan - for a guy with his injury history, he should have known better. And surely Habs’ doctors could have told him that he was at risk of ‘compensatory’ injury elsewhere? (Anyone who has ever found some muscles compensating for others understands this). Also - why was it so unthinkable for the Habs to shut him down and insist he heal up properly?

Monahan likely wanted to play and so did HuGo. 
 

Nothing more than a trade chip - never a long term asset so no care given about the long term effects. 

 

 

44 minutes ago, TurdBurglar said:

For the poll questions: 

 

1) I think Dubois will be a Canadien from free agency next offseason, unless Winnipeg will give him away this offseason, which is unlikely to say the least.  I also believe, from all the reports, he will be cheaper than we believe, somewhere in the $7m AAV range which I can live with.

 

2) I think if there's a trade for Matheson for a true #1 RD Hughes would be silly to not take it.  There's a logjam at LD so bringing in a top end RD to make a strong top pair would be much better than keeping a logjam at LD or moving Edmundson for a low return.  Guhle showed this season that he has the ability to play against the leagues best, with a high ceiling.

 

3) Drouin threw up 29pts in 58 games.  Unless he's a cancer in the locker room, I would absolutely sign that production at league minimum.  The very definition of low risk high reward.  The worse case scenario is he gets sent to Laval and his cap space is buried or is claimed on waivers.  The best case is he rebounds and put up 50+ points, and turns into a productive roster player again or trade chip.

 

I would also like to see Monahan resigned to a short 1-2 year deal.  I liked what I saw from him when he was playing and I think he could bring real value in a deadline deal with a chance to rebound. 

 

I think something needs to be really fixed with the medical system.  From the reports here too many players are playing with injuries that they shouldn't.  At the very least for next season, the medical staff should tighten up on what injuries they allow the players to play with.  The last game of the season there were 14 roster players injured.  That's 75% of a standard roster.  It's unacceptable.

I agree with everything except Drouin. 
 

Injury history, misses significant time every year. 
 

The French drama that follows him. Francophone media, bloggers, tweeters bash him constantly. 
 

The albatross that is the Sergachev trade and the expectations. 
 

Drouin gets more crap than he should but he has too much Mike Hoffman in him and not enough Jake Evans. 
 

Let this distraction shed the weight that is Montreal and take his game to a quieter place. 
 

I’m very OK if RHP takes his spot 

 

[DON]

2 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

 

 

But they were playing the Flames so Monahan he had to play didnt he.

Are the inmates running the asylum in the Habs medical clinic?

Was never ending, from playing the crap out of Matheson just returning after injury to running Guhle/Caufield out there injured (i guess they were going with 'Whatever dont kill ya..." development plan.).

[GHT120]

1 hour ago, TurdBurglar said:

3) Drouin threw up 29pts in 58 games.  Unless he's a cancer in the locker room, I would absolutely sign that production at league minimum.  The very definition of low risk high reward.  The worse case scenario is he gets sent to Laval and his cap space is buried or is claimed on waivers.  The best case is he rebounds and put up 50+ points, and turns into a productive roster player again or trade chip.

 

For Drouin's sake, let him move on.

 

1 hour ago, TurdBurglar said:

I would also like to see Monahan resigned to a short 1-2 year deal.  I liked what I saw from him when he was playing and I think he could bring real value in a deadline deal with a chance to rebound. 

 

With 681 NHL games and Monahan on IR for 122 days, under 50.2(C)(2)(iii) he is eligible for performance bonuses on a ONE-year contract ... I'll bet wherever he ends up it is on such a deal ... if HuGo can move out Hoffman and/or Armia I can see room for Monahan in the Top 9 on a one-year bonus based deal.

 

1 hour ago, TurdBurglar said:

I think something needs to be really fixed with the medical system.  From the reports here too many players are playing with injuries that they shouldn't.  At the very least for next season, the medical staff should tighten up on what injuries they allow the players to play with.  The last game of the season there were 14 roster players injured.  That's 75% of a standard roster.  It's unacceptable.

 

It ***MAY*** be as simple as empowering the medical/training staff to shutdown players who are not medically incapable of playing, regardless of what they want (or hiring staff who will do so) ... but the injury issue from this season needs to be fully and carefully studied before making any changes ... to ensure the RIGYT changes are made.

[tomh009]

2 hours ago, TurdBurglar said:

I think something needs to be really fixed with the medical system.  From the reports here too many players are playing with injuries that they shouldn't.

This was definitely the case in 2020-21, when the Habs were on the playoff drive -- and it cost them afterward, especially with Weber. Last year, maybe.

 

But this year, some of the reports have said that they have put players on IR aggressively for minor injuries, to protect them from aggravating them. Losing them and losing some more games was not really an issue. And this makes sense to me, more so than the Habs forcing injured players into the lineup on an already-lost season. (Caveat: players self-report injuries so there is variation from player to player.)

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Interesting comments by Hughes. 
 

My read is that we will suck for one more season but it’s going to be fast exciting hockey 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

There is no way Drouin signs for the league minimum anywhere. He is still young enough and talented enough that someone will take a chance for more than the league minimum. I wouldn't be surprised at all if gets 1.5-2.0 million a year from someone, hopefully not us.  We judge Drouin harshly (same with Gallagher) because he has underperformed relative to his contract which is fair. 

[Prime Minister Koivu]

If Dach can take another step next season it would be amazing. I hope that he gets to play centre all season too

[tomh009]

2 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

There is no way Drouin signs for the league minimum anywhere. He is still young enough and talented enough that someone will take a chance for more than the league minimum. I wouldn't be surprised at all if gets 1.5-2.0 million a year from someone, hopefully not us.  We judge Drouin harshly (same with Gallagher) because he has underperformed relative to his contract which is fair. 

Gallagher $6.5M - 0.4 points/game (last 2 seasons)

Anderson $5.5M - 0.45 points/game

Drouin $5.5M - 0.55 points/game

Hoffman $4.5M - 0.5 points/game

Dvorak $4.5M - 0.5 points/game

Armia $3.4M - 0.35 points/game

 

Judging purely by point production:salary ratio, the outliers are actually Gallagher and Anderson; Hoffman and Dvorak are actually the best two. Now, from a defensive contribution point of view, Dvorak and Armia probably add the most value, and Hoffman the least.

 

Even at Drouin's current salary, though, it's not so bad. I do expect Drouin to get at least $2M, maybe even $3M.

 

[hab29RETIRED]

3 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

There is no way Drouin signs for the league minimum anywhere. He is still young enough and talented enough that someone will take a chance for more than the league minimum. I wouldn't be surprised at all if gets 1.5-2.0 million a year from someone, hopefully not us.  We judge Drouin harshly (same with Gallagher) because he has underperformed relative to his contract which is fair. 

I don’t think Drouin is judged harshly. I mean, if you watch the guy float through half of the games, how can you not be upset. The guy is a perfect example of the type of player whose stats are stacked with meaningless points in meaningless games. I think he signs for between the league minimum and $2m if someone is dumb enough to shell out that much for a guy who really only showed up for 10% of the games on a season.
 

Gallagher, Hoffman and him produced the most when the season was pretty much done.
 

i am so sick of seeing Gallagher’s smurf smirk now, that I get why the refs hate him. I loved Gallagher 4-5 years ago, but that’s when he should have been traded. The way Anderson plays is why I want to trade him as well, his style does not bode well for a long and productive career, and I pretty sure he will breakdown. Gallagher was a skilled guy, he had speed. He was a pest, and he played hard. As he got older, he needed to evolve and stop playing a kamikaze style. He didn’t. He needed to learn over time to stopping yapping as much, and change a bit, so refs would stop thinking seeing Gallagher on the ice meant they needed to call a 2 min penalty on him. He didn’t. Given his injury history, he needed to learn to listen to his body and adjust, he didn’t. We are probably stuck with him until he is bought out, but I wish there was some way to find a sucker to take him off our hands.

 

four guys I have zero interest in seeing in a habs uniform are Drouin, Armia, Hoffman, and Gallagher. Luckily Drouin is gone. The other bums, we are stuck with.

 

 

 

[hab29RETIRED]

11 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

Gallagher $6.5M - 0.4 points/game (last 2 seasons)

Anderson $5.5M - 0.45 points/game

Drouin $5.5M - 0.55 points/game

Hoffman $4.5M - 0.5 points/game

Dvorak $4.5M - 0.5 points/game

Armia $3.4M - 0.35 points/game

 

Judging purely by point production:salary ratio, the outliers are actually Gallagher and Anderson; Hoffman and Dvorak are actually the best two. Now, from a defensive contribution point of view, Dvorak and Armia probably add the most value, and Hoffman the least.

 

Even at Drouin's current salary, though, it's not so bad. I do expect Drouin to get at least $2M, maybe even $3M.

 

I like Anderson, Dvorak is ok, but was another MB overpay for a third line centre.

 

Frankly I don’t want to keep any player on that list. I’d be happy if all of them were gone. With the exception of Anderson, what the stats don’t show is how much of the production from these players came when games were no longer meaningful. Most of the the points were meaningless points, from meaningless games.

[tomh009]

2 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Frankly I don’t want to keep any player on that list. I’d be happy if all of them were gone. With the exception of Anderson, what the stats don’t show is how much of the production from these players came when games were no longer meaningful. Most of the the points were meaningless points, from meaningless games.

Arguably all of the Habs' games over the past two years were meaningless, though!

[hab29RETIRED]

43 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

Arguably all of the Habs' games over the past two years were meaningless, though!

I think there is a big difference when you are a bottom feeder closer to the end of the year when you are pretty much eliminated, even though there is the slim 

mathematical chance, then early and midway through the season.

 

You’d also expect veteran players that actually care, to play harder to attract contending teams that may be looking to stick up at the trade deadline. Hoffman, Armaia, and Drouin were garbage in the games that could have gotten them on a shot to get into a playoff team.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Drouin is a bum. Let him walk, like all bums should from this organization, and if some team is desperate for a soft, injury-prone, one-dimensional passing winger who can’t even be bothered to make it to practice, then they are welcome to waste cap space on that turd. Give his slot to a young player and finally move on from that debacle of a trade and that sour joke of a career.

 

 

[Sir_Boagalott]

5 hours ago, tomh009 said:

Gallagher $6.5M - 0.4 points/game (last 2 seasons)

Anderson $5.5M - 0.45 points/game

Drouin $5.5M - 0.55 points/game

Hoffman $4.5M - 0.5 points/game

Dvorak $4.5M - 0.5 points/game

Armia $3.4M - 0.35 points/game

 

Judging purely by point production:salary ratio, the outliers are actually Gallagher and Anderson; Hoffman and Dvorak are actually the best two. Now, from a defensive contribution point of view, Dvorak and Armia probably add the most value, and Hoffman the least.

 

 

 

 

(primarily quoting cuz those are interesting #'s and others are mentioning those players)

 

I get why people are down on Armia, but he's better than just his offensive output.  He has good size, he's tall and has weight so he has really good reach which is great for defense.  Numerous times this year people mentioned Dach and Monahan stripping the puck away form people.  They can easily do that because they are tall.  ex:  Anderson, Guaraniov and Armia are also really good at that.   I'd also keep Armia because he can easily play 3rd and 2nd line and was a playoff producer - you know when they make the playoffs. 

 

I wouldn't get rid of Anderson either for same reasons, plus unlike Armia he has serious grit too.  Anderson is 1 of the Habs most sought after players and its not due to his skill.  Its because of his size and toughness, his skill is 3rd. 

 

I'm unsure why so many seem to be down on Guarianov.  I certainly haven't seen anything from him for me to want to see him gone forever.  The guy has a great shot and is way better defensively than I anticipated.  Depending on Bedard, I'm down for seeing 1 more year of him. I don't think that is a bad idea. 

 

I definitely agree with Hoffman, Gally, and Dvorak.  I recently saw an interesting article quoting Joel Bouchard, who said Dvorak is a complete enigma to him and that he can't read him at all - like he's 110% emotionless.  I found that to be an interesting observation that I could not disagree with.  What is Joel doing?  They should get him back in Laval.  I remember him saying he left because he was bummed at how the Habs developed players, but there is new regime now doing things differently.

 

For basically the same reasons I sort of want to see Evans go and maybe not next year but before his contract expires.  I've got nothing against his play but the Habs have better younger, cheaper, and higher ceiling guys - plus grittier too.  I'd even prefer Condotta over Evans who might be slightly less skilled but he is way tougher and would make the Habs way harder to play against.   Plus, for the Armia haters that dont want to have a $3,4 mil 4th liner; having Armia - Condotta - Pezzatta would be a fairly good 4th line.  That line would cost under $5 mil which would help lessen the argument that he costs too much.  

[Prime Minister Koivu]

That was one hard punch! 
 

 

5 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said:

 

(primarily quoting cuz those are interesting #'s and others are mentioning those players)

 

I get why people are down on Armia, but he's better than just his offensive output.  He has good size, he's tall and has weight so he has really good reach which is great for defense.  Numerous times this year people mentioned Dach and Monahan stripping the puck away form people.  They can easily do that because they are tall.  ex:  Anderson, Guaraniov and Armia are also really good at that.   I'd also keep Armia because he can easily play 3rd and 2nd line and was a playoff producer - you know when they make the playoffs. 

 

I wouldn't get rid of Anderson either for same reasons, plus unlike Armia he has serious grit too.  Anderson is 1 of the Habs most sought after players and its not due to his skill.  Its because of his size and toughness, his skill is 3rd. 

 

I'm unsure why so many seem to be down on Guarianov.  I certainly haven't seen anything from him for me to want to see him gone forever.  The guy has a great shot and is way better defensively than I anticipated.  Depending on Bedard, I'm down for seeing 1 more year of him. I don't think that is a bad idea. 

 

I definitely agree with Hoffman, Gally, and Dvorak.  I recently saw an interesting article quoting Joel Bouchard, who said Dvorak is a complete enigma to him and that he can't read him at all - like he's 110% emotionless.  I found that to be an interesting observation that I could not disagree with.  What is Joel doing?  They should get him back in Laval.  I remember him saying he left because he was bummed at how the Habs developed players, but there is new regime now doing things differently.

 

For basically the same reasons I sort of want to see Evans go and maybe not next year but before his contract expires.  I've got nothing against his play but the Habs have better younger, cheaper, and higher ceiling guys - plus grittier too.  I'd even prefer Condotta over Evans who might be slightly less skilled but he is way tougher and would make the Habs way harder to play against.   Plus, for the Armia haters that dont want to have a $3,4 mil 4th liner; having Armia - Condotta - Pezzatta would be a fairly good 4th line.  That line would cost under $5 mil which would help lessen the argument that he costs too much.  

 

I’m not bothered too much by our bottom 6 one way or the other. I would be fine with your 4th line scenario next year. 
 

The Habs problem is that we have many players that can play bottom 6 but we got nobody to fill the top 6 holes. 
 

Armia, Hoffman will both see first line minutes and PP time and that’s a problem. We need speed and skill on the top two lines not these guys. Armia is a third line guy and we could replace him easily. 
 

Gurianov does indeed have a great shot. His issue is that he gets pushed outside easily and he can’t find that open ice to use his shot like Hoffman does. We have half a dozen guys in Laval that could do a better job. IMO

[tomh009]

38 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

The Habs problem is that we have many players that can play bottom 6 but we got nobody to fill the top 6 holes.

The way I see it, we have half of our top-six core with Suzuki, Caufield and Dach. Hoffman is credible for next season, still, I think. Then, can one of the prospects step up? Slafkovsky, Ylonen, Farrell, Kidney, maybe even RHP? Might they sign Monahan on a less-expensive contract? I don't see the top six as an unsolvable problem for next season.

 

Longer term there are more questions, but we don't know how the draft will work out or what moves Hughes will make in the offseason, either.

[dlbalr]

13 hours ago, tomh009 said:

Gallagher $6.5M - 0.4 points/game (last 2 seasons)

Anderson $5.5M - 0.45 points/game

Drouin $5.5M - 0.55 points/game

Hoffman $4.5M - 0.5 points/game

Dvorak $4.5M - 0.5 points/game

Armia $3.4M - 0.35 points/game

 

Judging purely by point production:salary ratio, the outliers are actually Gallagher and Anderson; Hoffman and Dvorak are actually the best two. Now, from a defensive contribution point of view, Dvorak and Armia probably add the most value, and Hoffman the least.

 

Even at Drouin's current salary, though, it's not so bad. I do expect Drouin to get at least $2M, maybe even $3M.

 

NHL teams aren't going to just look at that number though.  They're going to look at goals.  He has 10 goals over the last three seasons combined, spanning 136 games.  On a per-82 basis, he's a six-goal scorer over that time.  Assists are fine and certainly help his cause but it's hard to see a team giving $3 million to play to an offence-only player who has seemingly lost the ability to put the puck in the net.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

If you worked as hard as Evans or Pezzetta or Pitlick or ….. you would have had a different time in Montreal. 
 

Sometimes there is criticism…. Yeah try back checking instead of doing a slow, half assed effort to get off the ice. 

[DON]

YA, dont know if it is just being lazy, not competitive enough or lacking hockey IQ, i dunno? 

Drouin has the skills and can skate, insert Gallagher's gumption and got a nice player.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

He’s a bum, and now, like the bum he is, he is whining about “the pressure” of Montreal. As if that was a reason for not coming to practice or playing like a POS 85% of the time. Funny how Suzuki was able to take the C at age 23 and excel, or Dach was able to step up, or WiFi - the list goes on.

 

I sure am glad that “Mr Character” Bergevin went out and got us such a “character” player for our best defensive prospect of the past decade 🙄

 

2 hours ago, tomh009 said:

The way I see it, we have half of our top-six core with Suzuki, Caufield and Dach. Hoffman is credible for next season, still, I think. Then, can one of the prospects step up? Slafkovsky, Ylonen, Farrell, Kidney, maybe even RHP? Might they sign Monahan on a less-expensive contract? I don't see the top six as an unsolvable problem for next season.

 

Longer term there are more questions, but we don't know how the draft will work out or what moves Hughes will make in the offseason, either.

 

Yeah, I agree. We have half a top-6. Slaf, we have to have faith he’ll join that group, although maybe not by next season. At D it’s even murkier. Matheson is top-4 for sure (top-2 in fact). Guhle, likely. After that, well, we have a bunch of legit NHLers back there, but I’m honestly not sure what the ceiling is on any of ‘em 🤷‍♂️

[tomh009]

12 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

At D it’s even murkier. Matheson is top-4 for sure (top-2 in fact). Guhle, likely. After that, well, we have a bunch of legit NHLers back there, but I’m honestly not sure what the ceiling is on any of ‘em 🤷‍♂️

Barron, Harris, Hutson, Mailloux all have top-four potential. Barron looked very good after his stint in Laval. Xhekaj and Kovacevic are more likely third-pair players.

[hab29RETIRED]

49 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

If you worked as hard as Evans or Pezzetta or Pitlick or ….. you would have had a different time in Montreal. 
 

Sometimes there is criticism…. Yeah try back checking instead of doing a slow, half assed effort to get off the ice. 

Totally agree about the effort, and I’d add attitude as well.

 

IMO you deserve the criticism when you act like a Prima Donna from the day you get drafted, and play when you feel like it, and complain about ice time, or being sent down, and demand more money before you have shown you deserve or have earned a bump, or sit out like Drouin did after he got drafted.

 

The Drouin trade and the KK pick really hurt us. Imagine having Hughes or Tkachuk.

[hab29RETIRED]

17 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

He’s a bum, and now, like the bum he is, he is whining about “the pressure” of Montreal. As if that was a reason for not coming to practice or playing like a POS 85% of the time. Funny how Suzuki was able to take the C at age 23 and excel, or Dach was able to step up, or WiFi - the list goes on.

 

I sure am glad that “Mr Character” Bergevin went out and got us such a “character” player for our best defensive prospect of the past decade 🙄

 

 

Yeah, I agree. We have half a top-6. Slaf, we have to have faith he’ll join that group, although maybe not by next season. At D it’s even murkier. Matheson is top-4 for sure (top-2 in fact). Guhle, likely. After that, well, we have a bunch of legit NHLers back there, but I’m honestly not sure what the ceiling is on any of ‘em 🤷‍♂️

For now I’d say Caufield and Suzuki are our only top 6 players. Dach is on his way there, but we need a full year, and a healthy full year from him. He’s had illness and the wrist injury during his time with the black hawks, and was also hurt here.

 

We NEED Slafkovsky to be a solid #1 pick. He has ti be at least a Svechnikov caliber player (hoping for even better).  But that’s not something we can count on. If he doesn’t learn to defend himself and be more aware on the ice, and not think he is invincible because of his size,he’s gonna be done like Brett lindros. 

on D, I’d say Guhle, and Harris have shown enough to be legit second pairing dmen - with hope that Guhle can be a top pairing guy, but that’s not a gaurantee either. I remember back when Chelios and Kurvers came up, there was talk that the both would be top pairing guys, and even scouting reports that said Kurvers would be the better player. 
 

ita just too damn early to tell. I’m more optimistic than I’ve been in a LONG time, but still am making sure I remain cautiously optimistic!  Been burned too many times on hoping guys like Higgins, Kostitsyn, Komisarik, and Zednik we’re going to be stars.