hab29RETIRED Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 9 hours ago, Prime Minister Koivu said: Skating Smarts Skill Work ethics Size Skill Smarts skating work ethic size Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Minister Koivu Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 49 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said: Skill Smarts skating work ethic size Nothing wrong with putting skill first. I went skating first because this league is so damn fast now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted January 25 Author Share Posted January 25 31 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said: Nothing wrong with putting skill first. I went skating first because this league is so damn fast now I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. I would probably rank them the same as hab29retired. I think if you have skill and smarts then you can get by with average skating (for an NHL player). I think smarts is very under rated and sometimes hard to measure. Anticipating plays and being in the right spot counts for a lot. A guy I think of in this regard is Tyler Toffoli. He has never been the greatest skater but you wouldn't notice as he is so smart on the ice and always seems to be in the right spot. Has always been a good penalty killer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Minister Koivu Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 4 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. I would probably rank them the same as hab29retired. I think if you have skill and smarts then you can get by with average skating (for an NHL player). I think smarts is very under rated and sometimes hard to measure. Anticipating plays and being in the right spot counts for a lot. A guy I think of in this regard is Tyler Toffoli. He has never been the greatest skater but you wouldn't notice as he is so smart on the ice and always seems to be in the right spot. Has always been a good penalty killer. Good example with Toffoli as an average skater putting up points and I agree about smarts - it’s vital now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 17 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: Since we are talking about what assets are most important in a player it might be interesting to see how everyone would rank them. I think the important assets would include (correct me if I am missing anything): 1. skating (speed, edgework, agility) 2. skill (puckhandling, passing, shot) 3. Smarts (hockey IQ) 4. Work ethic/determination/heart 5. Size I didn't rank them in any particular order although I think size might be #5 for a lot of people. I know it's not really that easy to rank them and there are various degrees in each category. A player might be highly skilled, a great skater but if they are lazy then they might be useless. On the other hand a player might have a huge heart (ie Gallagher) but if they are lacking in the skill area then they might not be effective so it's not that easy to say what asset is most important. Perhaps if a player is totally lacking in one area then it really hurts them. I think size would be #5 for me but it might also depend on the position. Size might be more important for a defenseman than a center. Thoughts? Well, for starters your list is missing a 6th attribute and its likely the most important of all of them. Toughness + Grit, and those combined with Size = Fearless = Success Ex: Gally has toughness and grit but he lacks size to be fully effective the way he plays. ex2: There happens to be 2 brothers that get over over 80 pts each. Neither are the most skilled, best skaters, or smartest. The Tkachuk's have toughness + grit along with size. Their other attributes are tertiary and below. ex3 : Cory Perry. Will the Peanut Gallery argue he's the best skater? He's not the most skilled either. ex4: Messier. He wasnt he best skater or have best skills. I'd rank them in this order: 1) toughness + grit 2) Work ethic/determination/heart 3) Size 4) Smarts 5) Skill 6) Skating Note: the last 3 are somewhat interchangeable but its the 1st 3 that are more important. ex: Mathews. He is high in the last 3 but absent of the top 3. How many Cups has he won? He's won how many playoffs rounds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 With this ranking, you are going to 15 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said: Well, for starters your list is missing a 6th attribute and its likely the most important of all of them. Toughness + Grit, and those combined with Size = Fearless = Success Ex: Gally has toughness and grit but he lacks size to be fully effective the way he plays. ex2: There happens to be 2 brothers that get over over 80 pts each. Neither are the most skilled, best skaters, or smartest. The Tkachuk's have toughness + grit along with size. Their other attributes are tertiary and below. ex3 : Cory Perry. Will the Peanut Gallery argue he's the best skater? He's not the most skilled either. ex4: Messier. He wasnt he best skater or have best skills. I'd rank them in this order: 1) toughness + grit 2) Work ethic/determination/heart 3) Size 4) Smarts 5) Skill 6) Skating Note: the last 3 are somewhat interchangeable but its the 1st 3 that are more important. ex: Mathews. He is high in the last 3 but absent of the top 3. How many Cups has he won? He's won how many playoffs rounds? 1) toughness + grit 2) Work ethic/determination/heart 3) Size 4) Smarts 5) Skill 6) Skating LOL, with this ranking your entire team is going to be plugs..... You need everything, but there is tons of players with grit, work ethic, and size, who lack the bottom three, most of them are taken in the late rounds of the NHL draft and never make the league. The last three are the hardest things to find, so yes, you'd like to find someone who has both skill and grit and work ethic ideally, but those things can be developed. You can teach an Yzerman to be tougher and work harder like Scotty Bowman did.... you cant take an ECHL plug and get him to score goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 Its also madness to suggest that the Tkachuk's lack skill, smarts and skating. That said, your comparison was to Matthews and lack of playoff success. Brady has never even made the playoffs, and Matthew has had one long playoff run and it ended without a cup. Meanwhile, their Dad never won the cup either. Which isn't to blame them, its to say one player can't win a cup on his own. I don't blame Auston Matthews that his team pays four forwards a huge number on the cap so they have no depth, no defence and no goaltending, no more than I blame Brady Tkachuk for missing the playoffs. Its their teams that get those results, not one player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted January 25 Author Share Posted January 25 33 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said: Well, for starters your list is missing a 6th attribute and its likely the most important of all of them. Toughness + Grit, and those combined with Size = Fearless = Success Ex: Gally has toughness and grit but he lacks size to be fully effective the way he plays. ex2: There happens to be 2 brothers that get over over 80 pts each. Neither are the most skilled, best skaters, or smartest. The Tkachuk's have toughness + grit along with size. Their other attributes are tertiary and below. ex3 : Cory Perry. Will the Peanut Gallery argue he's the best skater? He's not the most skilled either. ex4: Messier. He wasnt he best skater or have best skills. I'd rank them in this order: 1) toughness + grit 2) Work ethic/determination/heart 3) Size 4) Smarts 5) Skill 6) Skating Note: the last 3 are somewhat interchangeable but its the 1st 3 that are more important. ex: Mathews. He is high in the last 3 but absent of the top 3. How many Cups has he won? He's won how many playoffs rounds? Thanks for the detailed response. Toughness and grit are certainly important. In my mind I had those attributes lumped in with work ethic/determination/heart. If somebody has heart and determination they probably have some grit. I will also disagree all day long about Mark Messier and his skating. He was a powerful skater, strong, fast and great balance. I got to see him live in his prime many times as I was fortunate to have 1/2 season ticket for the Oilers during their hey day. I was there the night they eliminated the Habs. A very sad night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 I always say a mix of the attributes is important and its not a ranking its more about the combination of them and evaluating it. Its never about looking at one thing, its everything put together. Which is why scouting is hard and far from an exact science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted January 26 Author Share Posted January 26 3 minutes ago, Commandant said: I always say a mix of the attributes is important and its not a ranking its more about the combination of them and evaluating it. Its never about looking at one thing, its everything put together. Which is why scouting is hard and far from an exact science. Agree 100%, it would be pretty hard to be an NHL'er if you were a zero in one category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 3 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: Thanks for the detailed response. Toughness and grit are certainly important. Hull, Bure... lots of hall of famers were soft wingers who didnt backcheck or ever go into a corner, just relied god gifted skills and less skilled non-hall of famer teammates to do the dirty work and get them the puck. Cole Eiserman is supposedly like that (16g 13gms so far), he can really score and... thats it. But toughness and gritty players are needed part of a deep roster for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted January 26 Author Share Posted January 26 7 minutes ago, DON said: Hull, Bure... lots of hall of famers were soft wingers who didnt backcheck or ever go into a corner, just relied god gifted skills and less skilled non-hall of famer teammates to do the dirty work and get them the puck. Cole Eiserman is supposedly like that (16g 13gms so far), he can really score and... thats it. But toughness and gritty players are needed part of a deep roster for sure. Did you just say Bobby Hull was a soft winger? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 53 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: Thanks for the detailed response. Toughness and grit are certainly important. In my mind I had those attributes lumped in with work ethic/determination/heart. If somebody has heart and determination they probably have some grit. I will also disagree all day long about Mark Messier and his skating. He was a powerful skater, strong, fast and great balance. I got to see him live in his prime many times as I was fortunate to have 1/2 season ticket for the Oilers during their hey day. I was there the night they eliminated the Habs. A very sad night. I don't count those as the same because not all players with ethic/determination/heart have toughness and grit. A good example is Evans. He has the 1st 3, but lacks the last 2, along with size. Imagine if he had toughness and grit and was Andy's size. Mess might have been a good skater, but I still believe his success was more related to the 1st 3 in my list. Plus, his style of play didnt require being a great skater. Does anyone think the Tkachuks have a Top 20: slapshot, 1 timer, wrist shot, passer, skater, etc? They are higher in Top 20 for Points than any of those other stats. Toughness and Grit is useless like @Commandant says. That 30 goal scoring Lucic was a plug, along with Conn Smyth winning Ryan O'Riely. Don't get me started on that worm Cory Perry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 36 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: Did you just say Bobby Hull was a soft winger? No. He was a Nazi and a wife beater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 1 hour ago, Sir_Boagalott said: Well, for starters your list is missing a 6th attribute and its likely the most important of all of them. Toughness + Grit, and those combined with Size = Fearless = Success Ex: Gally has toughness and grit but he lacks size to be fully effective the way he plays. ex2: There happens to be 2 brothers that get over over 80 pts each. Neither are the most skilled, best skaters, or smartest. The Tkachuk's have toughness + grit along with size. Their other attributes are tertiary and below. ex3 : Cory Perry. Will the Peanut Gallery argue he's the best skater? He's not the most skilled either. ex4: Messier. He wasnt he best skater or have best skills. I'd rank them in this order: 1) toughness + grit 2) Work ethic/determination/heart 3) Size 4) Smarts 5) Skill 6) Skating Note: the last 3 are somewhat interchangeable but its the 1st 3 that are more important. ex: Mathews. He is high in the last 3 but absent of the top 3. How many Cups has he won? He's won how many playoffs rounds? Fluid you actually watch Messier play??? He was a far better skater than Gretzky, and was also a very skilled player. You don’t get over 1000 points and have multiple 100+ point seasons without skill. The Leafs signing of Reaves was probably done using your evaluation criteria. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 12 minutes ago, Sir_Boagalott said: I don't count those as the same because not all players with ethic/determination/heart have toughness and grit. A good example is Evans. He has the 1st 3, but lacks the last 2, along with size. Imagine if he had toughness and grit and was Andy's size. Mess might have been a good skater, but I still believe his success was more related to the 1st 3 in my list. Plus, his style of play didnt require being a great skater. Does anyone think the Tkachuks have a Top 20: slapshot, 1 timer, wrist shot, passer, skater, etc? They are higher in Top 20 for Points than any of those other stats. Toughness and Grit is useless like @Commandant says. That 30 goal scoring Lucic was a plug, along with Conn Smyth winning Ryan O'Riely. Don't get me started on that worm Cory Perry. I never said it was useless. I said you cant have it without other attributes. Perry didnt win a Rocket Richard Trophy and come second in Hart race without Skill. Lucic had a good shot. And Rielly didnt win that conn smythe without scoring points and also having the skating and smarts to keep up with other teams top players. All three things you put as your least three important attributes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 3 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said: Fluid you actually watch Messier play??? He was a far better skater than Gretzky, and was also a very skilled player. You don’t get over 1000 points and have multiple 100+ point seasons without skill. The Leafs signing of Reaves was probably done using your evaluation criteria. Agreed completely.... Messier is third all time in NHL points (1887). He won a Hart Trophy. The guy had skating and skill too. Lots of it. The argument that he didnt must be from someone who didnt watch 80s and early 90s hockey. There is a reason he was the best player on 2 of his 6 cup winning teams. 2 wins without Gretzky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 2 hours ago, Sir_Boagalott said: Toughness + Grit, and those combined with Size = Fearless = Success Without at least average skating and above-average skills & smarts the above formula guarantees Bottom 6" success at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 36 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said: Fluid you actually watch Messier play??? He was a far better skater than Gretzky, and was also a very skilled player. You don’t get over 1000 points and have multiple 100+ point seasons without skill. The Leafs signing of Reaves was probably done using your evaluation criteria. 32 minutes ago, Commandant said: Agreed completely.... Messier is third all time in NHL points (1887). He won a Hart Trophy. The guy had skating and skill too. Lots of it. The argument that he didnt must be from someone who didnt watch 80s and early 90s hockey. There is a reason he was the best player on 2 of his 6 cup winning teams. 2 wins without Gretzky. Totally agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 6 minutes ago, GHT120 said: Without at least average skating and above-average skills & smarts the above formula guarantees Bottom 6" success at best. Yup every beer league has guys with toughness, grit, heart, and work ethic... but who lacked the skating and skill to even make junior hockey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted January 26 Author Share Posted January 26 4 hours ago, Commandant said: No. He was a Nazi and a wife beater. He certainly had some issues off the ice but he was far from soft on the ice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 8 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: He certainly had some issues off the ice but he was far from soft on the ice. I think that the comment was more about Brett Hull, not Bobby. That said i have no respect for Bobby as he had more than some issues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted January 26 Author Share Posted January 26 8 hours ago, Commandant said: I think that the comment was more about Brett Hull, not Bobby. That said i have no respect for Bobby as he had more than some issues. I think you might be right, being a veteran guy I assumed Bobby Hull not Brett. Brett was certainly not a big back checker. Could be my bad on that one. Agreed about Bobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 12 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: He certainly had some issues off the ice but he was far from soft on the ice. Bobby was my favourite player when i was a kid, Brett is who i meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sim.on Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Catton, Lindstrom, Eiserman, Iginla, Helenius or Other? I'm assuming we'll be picking 4-9 range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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