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Subban traded to Nashville

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50 minutes ago, Scott462 said:

Looks like Nashville will be signing Duchene with this move.

 

I guess they value him more than Subban.

 

Context    On a team with Josi , ekholm, and ellis... along with dante fabbro as their top prospect.  Yup, they are willing to sacrifice a d to get a centre.

 

Context matters.

 

If they were the oilers with 3 top cs and nothing at right d, would they still value duchene more?  What about the leafs?  The penguins?

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1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

 

But you just want to twist things to be smug and brag about being right.  You arent taking an objective view of this at all.

 

ZWGeafS.jpg

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16 hours ago, Commandant said:

He did not "get dumped because he is a liability to his team".  That's not true.

He got dumped because his GM has mismanaged the cap and no one will take players who suck like Nick Bonino or kyle Turris, who they would rather dump but would have to include assets to do so (ala Patrick Marleau).

 

A player who is an actual liability would need to have assets included with him in order to get another team to take on the contract.

If subban's value was high enough, you have to think that poile would have given up assets instead of trading subban. Tavares is as old and has one of the biggest contracts of any forward. Toronto value him very highly, even though they have Matthews.  Enough that they gave up assets to dump Marleau. 

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34 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

If subban's value was high enough, you have to think that poile would have given up assets instead of trading subban. Tavares is as old and has one of the biggest contracts of any forward. Toronto value him very highly, even though they have Matthews.  Enough that they gave up assets to dump Marleau. 

 

Not every GM runs their team the same.  Not every team has the same depth. Not every team has the same UFA options.  

 

Lets work on facts; he choose to trade Subban at less than market value due to his contract.  That's really the only fact we know. 

 

 

 

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There was also serious trade rumours last off season. Looks like one off season later those rumours had more legs then we all originally thought. It is NOT normal that a player of his calibre be moved twice in 3 seasons.

Think D. Hamilton to a lesser extent.

I would also think we'd be fools to not think the reasons for his trade are only cap implications.

 

 

 

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My conclusion is that regardless of whether this was a good or bad deal for us, Nashville really came out of this poorly.

 

Yes, they did have Subban for three years but after the trip to the finals the first year, they only won one more playoff series with Subban.

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1 hour ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

There was also serious trade rumours last off season. Looks like one off season later those rumours had more legs then we all originally thought. It is NOT normal that a player of his calibre be moved twice in 3 seasons.

Think D. Hamilton to a lesser extent.

I would also think we'd be fools to not think the reasons for his trade are only cap implications.

 

 

 

 

Last off-season he was also coming off a year where he was third in Norris voting, and Turris was coming off a year where he looked like a legit #2 centre. 

This year both of those things were not true, so we can see the reason why this year is a little different on the ice. 

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5 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

Context    On a team with Josi , ekholm, and ellis... along with dante fabbro as their top prospect.  Yup, they are willing to sacrifice a d to get a centre.

 

Context matters.

 

If they were the oilers with 3 top cs and nothing at right d, would they still value duchene more?  What about the leafs?  The penguins?

 

Oh I agree with that.

 

I was just stating Nashville thinks more highly of Duchene than Subban right now. I think the cap reason is probably one of the biggest reasons but I don’t think it was the sole reason.

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8 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

Context    On a team with Josi , ekholm, and ellis... along with dante fabbro as their top prospect.  Yup, they are willing to sacrifice a d to get a centre.

 

Context matters.

 

If they were the oilers with 3 top cs and nothing at right d, would they still value duchene more?  What about the leafs?  The penguins?

 

We can also ask - if Nashville had Weber instead of Subban, don't you think they'd be looking to move the 34-year-old Weber and his $8 mil contract in order to create cap room for help at FW? Except that Weber would probably be a less desirable commodity than Subban at this stage of his career.

 

So I don't think we can infer much at all from this trade, except that a team that is stacked at a certain position is likely to be willing to move major assets from that position if that's required to create cap room for help in major areas of weakness.

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53 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

We can also ask - if Nashville had Weber instead of Subban, don't you think they'd be looking to move the 34-year-old Weber and his $8 mil contract in order to create cap room for help at FW? Except that Weber would probably be a less desirable commodity than Subban at this stage of his career.

 

So I don't think we can infer much at all from this trade, except that a team that is stacked at a certain position is likely to be willing to move major assets from that position if that's required to create cap room for help in major areas of weakness.

 

BINGO.

 

Its not going to end up subban for davies, santini and 2 seconds.

 

It looks like it will be Subban for the cap space for Duchene, davies, santini, and 2 seconds.

 

Cap space has value if there is a ufa out there who made it clear he wants to join you.

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8 hours ago, Commandant said:

Cap space has value if there is a ufa out there who made it clear he wants to join you.

 

Yes, but ... in this case Nashville made the deal with NJ before they were able to talk to Duchene. Or has Duchene said publicly that he wants to join the Preds?

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38 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

 

Yes, but ... in this case Nashville made the deal with NJ before they were able to talk to Duchene. Or has Duchene said publicly that he wants to join the Preds?

 

Its well known that these rules about talking to free agents are often bent, if not outright broken before free agency officially starts.  

 

There is a reason that people like Elliotte Friedmann are able to report that Nashville is #1 on Duchene's list, and was doing so weeks ago. 

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Fair enough, if the rules are not enforced then the date doesn’t mean much and I can withdraw my comment.

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I personally don’t think Nashville is better with Duchene over Subban, I understand that they are strong on defense but I don’t think Duchene puts them over the top.

 

I understand Nashville is suffering with some failed centre acquisitions in Turris and to a lesser extent Bonino and Johanson isn’t producing like they want him too but what do they do now, put Turris on the 3rd line? That’s an expensive group of centres.

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Haven't posted in a long time...saw this trade and had to ask...I'm curious what the team looks like if Subban comes back. 

 

Only 3 years left on the contract and it doesn't look like the Habs would have much difficultly in managing it under the cap (which is sadly a testament to the lack of high end talent on the club, as well as a lack of high end young talent driving up their contracts, IMHO).   Santini and Davies would've been the Habs giving up a fringe d-man and a fringe prospect...and with their additional picks next year they could probably have matched the Devils on picks. 

 

Sure, I know lots of folks love or hate Subban but my main question is, over the next 3 seasons, would having Subban make the Habs a better club without taking much away from their ability to mange the cap?  I'm actually surprised that scenario really hasn't been discussed already...

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59 minutes ago, Zowpeb said:

Haven't posted in a long time...saw this trade and had to ask...I'm curious what the team looks like if Subban comes back. 

 

Only 3 years left on the contract and it doesn't look like the Habs would have much difficultly in managing it under the cap (which is sadly a testament to the lack of high end talent on the club, as well as a lack of high end young talent driving up their contracts, IMHO).   Santini and Davies would've been the Habs giving up a fringe d-man and a fringe prospect...and with their additional picks next year they could probably have matched the Devils on picks. 

 

Sure, I know lots of folks love or hate Subban but my main question is, over the next 3 seasons, would having Subban make the Habs a better club without taking much away from their ability to mange the cap?  I'm actually surprised that scenario really hasn't been discussed already...

I wondered the same thing.  Didn't bring it up here because of all the Subban haters.  But you make some very valid points.  We had the assets and the cap room to make it happen.  Imagine having both Subban and Weber on the back end, with Petry and Mete - and of course Carey Price.  With the ability to transition the puck to the other end of the ice quickly - our young, skilled forwards would have had more opportunity to create offence.  But then what do I know...       Time for the Subban haters to chime in...

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I don't think there have been any subban or Weber haters on the site at all. Only debate about the trade.  Some hated it. Some would have rather kept subban but were overall indifferent because Weber is also very good. Others were happy to be rid of nmc.

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Im sure Molson would sell alot of jerseys and MB would get alot of happy fans seeing pk back, what would happen in the lockerroom among the players I dont know. 

Maybe there is something to it that pk has been traded twice and also Gallagher didnt sound like he misses pk alot  in an interview before.

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3 hours ago, Dalhabs said:

Im sure Molson would sell alot of jerseys and MB would get alot of happy fans seeing pk back, what would happen in the lockerroom among the players I dont know. 

Maybe there is something to it that pk has been traded twice and also Gallagher didnt sound like he misses pk alot  in an interview before.

A $9m RH d-man simply isnt a need for this team.

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  I hated the trade when it happened.  The almost universal consensus was that Weber would deteriorate while Subban would continue to blossom.  I don't think either of these things happened and I think the recent trade is being viewed by fans as incontrovertible proof that Subban play has deteriorated.   

 

  Of course Nashville's cap situation must be taken into account but I do believe the low return shows that other GMs dont see PK as a Norris level defenceman anymore.  This shows that the early simplistic analyses of the original trade were wrong.  An argument can still be made that Nashville "won" the original trade but that argument has to be a lot more sophisticated now.  For myself, I now feel that this was a good trade for the Habs.  If Nashville ends up with a recapture penalty it could end up really hurting them.

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15 hours ago, Peter Puck said:

  I hated the trade when it happened.  The almost universal consensus was that Weber would deteriorate while Subban would continue to blossom.  I don't think either of these things happened and I think the recent trade is being viewed by fans as incontrovertible proof that Subban play has deteriorated.   

 

  Of course Nashville's cap situation must be taken into account but I do believe the low return shows that other GMs dont see PK as a Norris level defenceman anymore.  This shows that the early simplistic analyses of the original trade were wrong.  An argument can still be made that Nashville "won" the original trade but that argument has to be a lot more sophisticated now.  For myself, I now feel that this was a good trade for the Habs.  If Nashville ends up with a recapture penalty it could end up really hurting them.

I hope that GMs around the league were not that quick to rule Giordano out as a Norris level defencemen after his 39 and 38  points seasons in 2016-17 and 2017-18.

Because... know wha a mean ?

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1 hour ago, JoeLassister said:

I hope that GMs around the league were not that quick to rule Giordano out as a Norris level defencemen after his 39 and 38  points seasons in 2016-17 and 2017-18.

Because... know wha a mean ?

 

Bingo

Plus PK Subban was third in Norris voting in 2017-18

Its a little pre-mature to say he's not seen at that level anymore. 

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3 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

Bingo

Plus PK Subban was third in Norris voting in 2017-18

Its a little pre-mature to say he's not seen at that level anymore. 

Just, i will stick with Josi and crew instead thanks and no other GM would take him without Nashville retaining salary so basically had to give away for 2 2nds & chump change was best deal they had offered. Who would of guessed he was available for that?

 

(if Gardiner will get $6-8m/yr, Subban doesnt look bad at $9m for 3 more years)

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7 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

Bingo

Plus PK Subban was third in Norris voting in 2017-18

Its a little pre-mature to say he's not seen at that level anymore. 

  I'm pretty sure that if say 10 GMs feel he is one of the best 5 Dman in the league that Nashville could have gotten more.  After all everyone is expecting Gardener to sign for 7 million.     Or maybe I am wrong about what Gardener will get.

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3 hours ago, Peter Puck said:

  I'm pretty sure that if say 10 GMs feel he is one of the best 5 Dman in the league that Nashville could have gotten more.  After all everyone is expecting Gardener to sign for 7 million.     Or maybe I am wrong about what Gardener will get.

 

We dont know what was offered and what was available, and what teams wanted Nashville to retain or take a bad contract back and Nashville wanted 9 mill in cap room. 

 

What we do know... he was 3rd place in Norris voting one year ago. Thats a fact and you cant change it. 

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