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I've thought every since his injury that the deal that makes the most sense is for the Habs

to sign Markov to a one year bonus laden contract. This gives Markov a chance to prove

he can return to his elite form.

I can see why Markov would rather have the longer term. But it will take a leap of faith

for the team to offer him 3 years at a good salary.

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I was wondering which ufa we should try to bring in next season??

Alexander Frolov

Scottie Upshall

Kevin Bieksa

Christian Ehrhoff

Ian White

Shane O'Brien

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I was wondering which ufa we should try to bring in next season??

Alexander Frolov

Scottie Upshall

Kevin Bieksa

Christian Ehrhoff

Ian White

Shane O'Brien

If we lose Wiz, then any of the first three D-men would be wise acquisitions. Probably in that order.

Niether of those forwards floats my boat, but likely would be useful additions. Don't know enough about Upshall to speculate on that, but Frolov seems to have the *wrong* profile for us: an unreliable talent akin to Kosty or Pouliot.

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If we lose Wiz, then any of the first three D-men would be wise acquisitions. Probably in that order.

Niether of those forwards floats my boat, but likely would be useful additions. Don't know enough about Upshall to speculate on that, but Frolov seems to have the *wrong* profile for us: an unreliable talent akin to Kosty or Pouliot.

Frolov was a flop in New York; though they'd never admit it, his injury was a good thing as it freed up the cap space to go make some moves that actually helped this team. I'd be shocked if Frolov isn't in the KHL next year.

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If we lose Wiz, then any of the first three D-men would be wise acquisitions. Probably in that order.

Niether of those forwards floats my boat, but likely would be useful additions. Don't know enough about Upshall to speculate on that, but Frolov seems to have the *wrong* profile for us: an unreliable talent akin to Kosty or Pouliot.

I'd argue Kostitsyn has been as reliable as Cammalleri, maybe more so, and definitely more reliable than Gomez this year. He does way more defensively than Cammalleri when he's not on, that's for sure.

Another Kostitsyn type player would be good for us. But we should just try and keep the one we have.

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I'd argue Kostitsyn has been as reliable as Cammalleri, maybe more so, and definitely more reliable than Gomez this year. He does way more defensively than Cammalleri when he's not on, that's for sure.

Another Kostitsyn type player would be good for us. But we should just try and keep the one we have.

AK is one of those underrated players that is taken for granted. Like the guy in baseball with the high OBP that hit .275 in 1990.

20 years ago everybody would have preferred the guy who hit .300 with the .320 OBP to the guy who hit .275 with the .400 OBP. That is slowly changing in hockey as well.

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I understand the case for Kostitsyn. He brings some physical dimension to the game and is extremely effective for the 25 games a year when he's offensively hot. So he's a useful #6 forward and well worthwhile at his price-point. Having said that, he is not a player you can count on to produce either consistently (Pleks, Gio) or when it matters most (Cammy and, hopefully, Gomer Pyle), and any team that sees him as a core guy is in trouble.

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I understand the case for Kostitsyn. He brings some physical dimension to the game and is extremely effective for the 25 games a year when he's offensively hot. So he's a useful #6 forward and well worthwhile at his price-point. Having said that, he is not a player you can count on to produce either consistently (Pleks, Gio) or when it matters most (Cammy and, hopefully, Gomer Pyle), and any team that sees him as a core guy is in trouble.

Again, what if JM doesn't try to "start Gionta's engine" by spliting the Plex line and what if Cammy doesn't get hurt for a long period of time ?

Remember, AK was our #1 offensive weapon early this season.

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Again, what if JM doesn't try to "start Gionta's engine" by spliting the Plex line and what if Cammy doesn't get hurt for a long period of time ?

Remember, AK was our #1 offensive weapon early this season.

Sure. He gets hot for 10-15 games and he looks like an offensive star. Then he goes offensively cold and pretty much useless for, oh, about 30 games. Then he gets hot again, with no special rhyme or reason that anyone can discern. That's been his pattern his whole career. It ain't JM's fault. Anyone counting on Kosty to bring it at any particular time or for any particular game is setting themselves up for disappointment.

Having said that, if you look at his seasons as a whole, you tend to to conclude that you could do worse than a guy with at least a modicum physical robustness who bags 20 goals annually. Like I say, a decent #6 FW overall, no more than that, and offensively unreliable from week to week and month to month.

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Sure. He gets hot for 10-15 games and he looks like an offensive star. Then he goes offensively cold and pretty much useless for, oh, about 30 games. Then he gets hot again, with no special rhyme or reason that anyone can discern. That's been his pattern his whole career. It ain't JM's fault. Anyone counting on Kosty to bring it at any particular time or for any particular game is setting themselves up for disappointment.

Having said that, if you look at his seasons as a whole, you tend to to conclude that you could do worse than a guy with at least a modicum physical robustness who bags 20 goals annually. Like I say, a decent #6 FW overall, no more than that, and offensively unreliable from week to week and month to month.

The "problem" with your 1st paragraph is that, for the last few seasons, we are able to come up with a major factor that screw him while he was hot. Be it himself getting injured, key teammate (most of the time Cammy) getting injured or JM's decision to split his hot line for x reason (most likely to get his top players going by playing with Plex).

Not saying that AK is a stud who will be a ppg player, but just saying that in the last few seasons, he was probably not given the chance to turn this around.

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The "problem" with your 1st paragraph is that, for the last few seasons, we are able to come up with a major factor that screw him while he was hot. Be it himself getting injured, key teammate (most of the time Cammy) getting injured or JM's decision to split his hot line for x reason (most likely to get his top players going by playing with Plex).

Not saying that AK is a stud who will be a ppg player, but just saying that in the last few seasons, he was probably not given the chance to turn this around.

I disagree. What you're describing are excuses. 'Oh, I got injured...then I never got it back.' Well, precisely. Good players don't rely on everything going right for 82 games in order to deliver the goods. There will ALWAYS be some reason why Kosty slumps for months at a time. And that's precisely why he is not and probably never will be a core player.

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I disagree. What you're describing are excuses. 'Oh, I got injured...then I never got it back.' Well, precisely. Good players don't rely on everything going right for 82 games in order to deliver the goods. There will ALWAYS be some reason why Kosty slumps for months at a time. And that's precisely why he is not and probably never will be a core player.

Microstats disagree with you 100%. He is a very effective even strength player who is capable of handling very tough minutes.

People need to get over the fact that he is not going to be the 80 pt impact forward that they hoped for when he got drafted in 03. All the other talented players from that draft are irrelevant. We are not talking about how productive a player is anymore, what AK always gets is perception and disappointment based on his draft position.

If he was a 3rd round draft choice how would he be viewed? Would it change anything on the ice or just the fan perception of what is appropriate production for his draft slot. It is way to simple to look at D'Agostini and S. Kostitsyn and say same points, they are just as good. Their forward matchups, zone starts etc. place them in positions for success, not going head to head with top lines.

One day hockey will catchup to baseball and not use a stat like points which is extremely flawed to use as their comparable.

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I disagree. What you're describing are excuses. 'Oh, I got injured...then I never got it back.' Well, precisely. Good players don't rely on everything going right for 82 games in order to deliver the goods. There will ALWAYS be some reason why Kosty slumps for months at a time. And that's precisely why he is not and probably never will be a core player.

CC, none of the Canadiens are particularity solid offensively game to game.

I think what we have in the Habs is a team that needs to play as a team. Kosty is 3rd in points after Plek and Cammy with Gionta and Subban trailing him.

We are not a team of superstars but rather a gang that is most effective when everyone contributes.

He might be inconsistent, but outside of Price, none of them are.

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Microstats disagree with you 100%. He is a very effective even strength player who is capable of handling very tough minutes.

People need to get over the fact that he is not going to be the 80 pt impact forward that they hoped for when he got drafted in 03. All the other talented players from that draft are irrelevant. We are not talking about how productive a player is anymore, what AK always gets is perception and disappointment based on his draft position.

If he was a 3rd round draft choice how would he be viewed? Would it change anything on the ice or just the fan perception of what is appropriate production for his draft slot. It is way to simple to look at D'Agostini and S. Kostitsyn and say same points, they are just as good. Their forward matchups, zone starts etc. place them in positions for success, not going head to head with top lines.

One day hockey will catchup to baseball and not use a stat like points which is extremely flawed to use as their comparable.

Totally agree with this not just ak46 but all players, goalies as well. Stats are not something a player can be solely judged on, for example, if I am the player standing in front screening the goalie another shoots cleanly beats the goalie, I get no stat fir this but was a huge reason for the goal. Or you can flip that the other, let's say PK does one of has amazing rushes blows by the D shoots the puck at the net and his teammate was skating towards the net and the puck hits off of him not even knowing and it goes in and he is credited fir the goal. My point is that most stats are reserved for personal accolades and salary at the end the team result is what matters, because let's say Gomez gets a hat trick and we lose 6-3, then what was the point.

Edited by SOOPAVILLIN
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Guys, I'm not denying that AK is an effective player at even strength, good value, etc., etc.. Nor am I saying we should get rid of him, string him up from yardarm, yadayada. All I'm saying is that offensively he is a vanishing act and that if you count on him to bring his 'A' game with some regularity you are delusional. Like I keep saying, he's a respectable #6 forward and no more than that, mainly because he is offensively nonexistent for 2/3 of every season. Which, incidentally, is NOT the career profile of Gionta, Pleks, or Cammy, notwthstanding their weak numbers this particular season. AK is a permanent offensive tease, not a guy you can count on to produce with some consistency.

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Guys, I'm not denying that AK is an effective player at even strength, good value, etc., etc.. Nor am I saying we should get rid of him, string him up from yardarm, yadayada. All I'm saying is that offensively he is a vanishing act and that if you count on him to bring his 'A' game with some regularity you are delusional. Like I keep saying, he's a respectable #6 forward and no more than that, mainly because he is offensively nonexistent for 2/3 of every season. Which, incidentally, is NOT the career profile of Gionta, Pleks, or Cammy, notwthstanding their weak numbers this particular season. AK is a permanent offensive tease, not a guy you can count on to produce with some consistency.

And he's been cuz JM broke his line early in the season for no other reason than get Gionta going. AK was simply our best forward before that.

I am claiming that he never had the opportunity to turn this around and prove us he can be more than a tease, mainly because of excuses.

I am fairly confident that if you give him 2 straight seasons of 75+ games with Plex and Cammy, he will turn out to get as much points as them or even more.

IMO, he remains the most offensively gifted player on this team.

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And he's been cuz JM broke his line early in the season for no other reason than get Gionta going. AK was simply our best forward before that.

I am claiming that he never had the opportunity to turn this around and prove us he can be more than a tease, mainly because of excuses.

I am fairly confident that if you give him 2 straight seasons of 75+ games with Plex and Cammy, he will turn out to get as much points as them or even more.

IMO, he remains the most offensively gifted player on this team.

See, this is exactly the sort of attitude to AK that I find implausible. No question, the guy has at least some of the tools to be a top-3 forward. Yet in four seasons he has never had more than 53 points and in reality has flatlined at about 45. In all four of those seasons he has shown runs of 10-15 games where he looks like he might actually become an impact player. And in all four of those seasons he has failed to ever come even close to becoming that player on anything resembling a consistent basis. make all the excuses you like, but the pattern is set.

The reason may be that he is either mentally soft or that he lacks elite-level offensive hockey sense. I suspect both.

Now, the guy's only 26. It could be that he will make the leap at some point to being more than a #6 forward. Myself, I'd expect him to put together maybe one really great season in his career - one of those freak years where it all comes together, like Gomez had when he scored 33 goals - and then revert back to type. And the same people who now hold out hope of his becoming elite, will spend the rest of his career looking back at that big season and say it's only a matter of time before he gets it back...

I've seen guys like this before. They seem to have the tools, they tease the hell out of you. And they never really put it together. At this stage of the game it's up to Kosty to prove differently. Four years is enough to lose the benefit of the doubt.

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See, this is exactly the sort of attitude to AK that I find implausible. No question, the guy has at least some of the tools to be a top-3 forward. Yet in four seasons he has never had more than 53 points and in reality has flatlined at about 45. In all four of those seasons he has shown runs of 10-15 games where he looks like he might actually become an impact player. And in all four of those seasons he has failed to ever come even close to becoming that player on anything resembling a consistent basis. make all the excuses you like, but the pattern is set.

The reason may be that he is either mentally soft or that he lacks elite-level offensive hockey sense. I suspect both.

Now, the guy's only 26. It could be that he will make the leap at some point to being more than a #6 forward. Myself, I'd expect him to put together maybe one really great season in his career - one of those freak years where it all comes together, like Gomez had when he scored 33 goals - and then revert back to type. And the same people who now hold out hope of his becoming elite, will spend the rest of his career looking back at that big season and say it's only a matter of time before he gets it back...

I've seen guys like this before. They seem to have the tools, they tease the hell out of you. And they never really put it together. At this stage of the game it's up to Kosty to prove differently. Four years is enough to lose the benefit of the doubt.

So you would keep Gomez and get rid of AK. That's RICH

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See, this is exactly the sort of attitude to AK that I find implausible. No question, the guy has at least some of the tools to be a top-3 forward. Yet in four seasons he has never had more than 53 points and in reality has flatlined at about 45. In all four of those seasons he has shown runs of 10-15 games where he looks like he might actually become an impact player. And in all four of those seasons he has failed to ever come even close to becoming that player on anything resembling a consistent basis. make all the excuses you like, but the pattern is set.

The reason may be that he is either mentally soft or that he lacks elite-level offensive hockey sense. I suspect both.

Now, the guy's only 26. It could be that he will make the leap at some point to being more than a #6 forward. Myself, I'd expect him to put together maybe one really great season in his career - one of those freak years where it all comes together, like Gomez had when he scored 33 goals - and then revert back to type. And the same people who now hold out hope of his becoming elite, will spend the rest of his career looking back at that big season and say it's only a matter of time before he gets it back...

I've seen guys like this before. They seem to have the tools, they tease the hell out of you. And they never really put it together. At this stage of the game it's up to Kosty to prove differently. Four years is enough to lose the benefit of the doubt.

That Gomez/Gionta season was a fluke. It was in a season where PPs went through the roof and they outperformed their regular shooting percentages by a massive margin. Gomez's career best shooting season was 9% and his career average is 7.5%. In 2006 his shooting percentage spiked to 13.5%. close to double his career average. Gionta had the exact same thing.

Sergei Kostitsyn is having the same type of year this year. He is shooting at 24%, that is an absurd level and unsustainable moving forward.

I don't know who you are comparing Kostitsyn to, but you cannot take his numbers and compare them to elite offensive talents running different systems. Compare him to his peers under the same conditions on the Habs. He is 12 points behind Plekanec and 1 point ahead of Gionta. He trails Cammalleri significantly, but look at their PP numbers and TOI.

Cammalleri has 24 minutes more of PP time even though he has played 14 games less than AK46. If you remove the powerplay numbers his production is the equal of Cammalleri as they are both at .55 PPG at even strength. Plekanec also receives more PP ice time. Bring in salaries to the equation and which players are the disappointments offensively? Not AK46.

THe guy has changed linemates on a regular basis and continues to play against top competition. I just don't understand what the expectation is. Everybody marvelled at his production when paired with Eller, well it isn't a coincidence that when he got soft minutes his offensive production spiked.

He has 15 points in his last 20 games when he has had some line stability and received easier matchups.

He will never be a PPG player on the Habs, but how can we deny that the majority of criticism comes from the expectation of what he could be and not an analysis of the player he is. The Habs would be smart to re-up him at an affordable $3-3.5M. He is the type of player that the Red Wings steal followed by everybody wondering how they win every season.

Edited by Wamsley01
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You guys seem to be saying the same thing, only in a different way. To say Kostitsyn is incosistent is absolutely correct. And if he is paid more than his 3.5 mill, he is overpaid. Period. It is too late to look at where he was drafted or who went below him. He is who he is. A 50 point streaky scorer with size, strength and skill that can help him dominate when he is in the right situation. He is a good 5 or 6 forward that can be huge at times and invisible at other times. There are several forwards that I would rather have on the roster than Kosty, but I do like him. I think he still brings value to the team and at a cap hit below 4 mill, he is worth keeping. There is also the Habs curse that you need to look at. Over the last 30 years, I have lost count of the prolific players that the Habs have picked up, only to have them play well, but underperform compared to their old team. If you run out and sign someone that you think would be a good fit, there is no guarantee that he will be. We know what Kosty brings and over a full season, it is good.

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I dunno, we seem to be talking past each other. One guy accuses me of wanting to keep Gomez and dump AK. If anything, I would argue for just the reverse. Wamsley points out that Gomer's 33-goal season was a fluke. But if you re-read the post where I bring it up, you'll find that that was precisely my point ('freak' was my adjective of choice): I can't see Kosty ever performing at an elite level except by some freak circumstance, as happened with Gomez and Gio that season in Jersey. Because he does have raw talent, it could happen some year. But it will not happen regularly.

Now Wamsley, you point out that Kostitsyn has had OK numbers under unpromising circumstances this season. Which is fine, but what was his excuse in 08 and 09, under a different system? Also, what is the point of defending his production as comparable to Cammalleri's, while simultaneously saying we're crazy if we expect Kostitsyn to produce like a top-3 forward? I agree that Kostitsyn is not and probably never will be a top-3 forward. (I do expect Cammy to be one, which is why he has been a disappointment this season. But then again, unlike Kosty, Cammy stepped up for us when it counted last season/playoff, and he has years of near-elite production under his belt. That buys him the benefit of some doubt).

So if I agree that Kosty is not and likely will never be a top-3 forward, why am I somewhat grumpy about Kostitsyn? Is it because I expect him to produce like the high draft pick he was? No. It's because, offensively, he's a tease. Yes, he's got 15 points in 20 games. He also had 6 points in the preceding 25 games. Right there is Kostitysn in a nutshell.

You can say, 'well, I accept that he will be an offensive nonentity for 2/3 of every season, and I'll take the bad with the good.' I respect that, especially considering his modest cap hit, although the frustration of enduring his prolonged slumps shouldn't be minimized. What does NOT make sense is to simultaneously make excuses, as though he *could* be an 80-point guy if only he had just the right linemates, never got injured, had more PP time, etc., etc.. Either he's a #6 forward or he isn't.

What he really is, if you ask me, is a guy who plays like a top-3 forward for maybe 20-25 games/year, and then plays like a third liner the rest of the season ('good at even strength' etc.). It's that dichotomoy that makes him fundamentally frustrating. And it's naive to expect that pattern to change. In this sense, Wamsley's right - the difference is that I refuse to overlook the aggravation involved in players of this profile. That's all.

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber
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Ya, I deinitely never read anything into your other statements suggesting that Gomez should be kept and Kosty let go.

I am totally with you on the frustration level for Kosty. I was convinced before the all star break that he would be gone. Everyone was frustrated with the guy and wanted to see him let go, then he lights it up and all those thoughts disapear. He takes streaky to a whole new level. The problem is that when he is not performing, he isn't out there killing off a 5 on 3 like Kovalev used to or gaining the zone effectively and making a nice dump in or first pass like Gomez or Koivu or Kovy. He is more like a Ryder. Scoring, or doing nothing. Having said that, under Martin, I feel that this year, the defensive element of his game has improved somewhat. Of the top sixers, I think the two guys that bring the least when they are cold are Kosty and Cammelleri. As I said though, they have both been playing more defensively and could improve under another year of Martin.

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But Chicoutimi Cucumber, if you understand that the pattern is set with Kostitsyn and that his flashes of brilliance are temporary, why do you still get frustrated?

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I dunno, we seem to be talking past each other. One guy accuses me of wanting to keep Gomez and dump AK.

That would be me. Sorry CC don't have time to read every thing you write. I just took offense to dumping AK with Gomez still on the roster. I hope both have great playoffs and we have to change our minds.

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